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Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

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Comments

  • #1472
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,123 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    What is tiresome about it? The topic is a question as regards will you vote or not, no more. Digression to the topic of civil marriage in general is not that different to digression to religious marriage. If one is being shoe-horned then so must the other, as the answer to this thread is simply yes or no.
    Nonsense, a referendum is pertaining to civil marriage. People are not voting on how Jews/Muslims/Buddhists/pagans/Christians get married within their respective religious group.
    Maybe you don't want to speak about religious marriage, well you don't have to respond if you don't want to. But it is a valid facet of the topic.
    No, it's really not. We're discussing a referendum about civil marriage. Religious marriage isn't part of what is to be voted on.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1473
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Religious marriage is not what this discussion is about. Its about civil marriage.

    Sorry, but if the topic of civil marriage can be discussed on a thread about how you will vote in a referendum, then I don't see why religious marriage wouldn't have a place in the wider discussion too ... Surely it is a good thing to get people's opinions across all facets of the topic? All I did was ask a question on that facet, nobody had to answer it if they weren't interested.

    I am for civil marriage for everyone by the way, just in case you missed it. And I think that both topics are fine for discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I don't really understand why people have an issue with what I asked.


  • #1474
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    I am not asking for you to lie I am just a little shocked that there are people out there in the world who can see injustice and are just like 'bleh don't care'. Its just not the way people I know think. Ever.

    Also people need to realise it is not simply about 'gay marriage' or 'gay rights' when any group or individual has their rights diminished it diminishes all of us.

    Can they be 100% certain that it'll never effect them, that they will never have a gay relative, friend or child?

    Can you imagine having a child who was gay and them being distraught that they can't marry their partner and saying "You were there Dad/Mum, you voted Yes, didn't you?" and then to have to tell them that actually you couldn't be bothered getting off your arse and strolling to the polling station for 30 minutes.


  • #1475
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Sorry, but if the topic of civil marriage can be discussed on a thread about how you will vote in a referendum, then I don't see why religious marriage wouldn't have a place in the wider discussion too ... Surely it is a good thing to get people's opinions across all facets of the topic? All I did was ask a question on that facet, nobody had to answer it if they weren't interested.

    I am for civil marriage for everyone by the way, just in case you missed it. And I think that both topics are fine for discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I don't really understand why people have an issue with what I asked.
    Religious ceremonies are completely irrelevant. Private clubs who can provide non civil legal ceremonies can set their own rules. As someone who had a civil marriage religious considerations never entered my head as something to think about when I married.


  • #1476
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,561 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Sorry, but if the topic of civil marriage can be discussed on a thread about how you will vote in a referendum, then I don't see why religious marriage wouldn't have a place in the wider discussion too ... Surely it is a good thing to get people's opinions across all facets of the topic? All I did was ask a question on that facet, nobody had to answer it if they weren't interested.

    I am for civil marriage for everyone by the way, just in case you missed it. And I think that both topics are fine for discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I don't really understand why people have an issue with what I asked.
    we're not voting for religious marraige are we?? that's an ecumenical matter isn't it?


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  • #1477
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,292 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Sorry, but if the topic of civil marriage can be discussed on a thread about how you will vote in a referendum, then I don't see why religious marriage wouldn't have a place in the wider discussion too ... Surely it is a good thing to get people's opinions across all facets of the topic? All I did was ask a question on that facet, nobody had to answer it if they weren't interested.

    I am for civil marriage for everyone by the way, just in case you missed it. And I think that both topics are fine for discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I don't really understand why people have an issue with what I asked.

    Because Religious marriage is up to the people of those specific religions on whether they want to have it or not.

    Civil Marriage is a societal issue and the referendum next year is only dealing with that. Bringing religious Marriage into the debate will only raise the hackels further of the staunchly opposed.


  • #1478
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Polls indicate an overwhelming "yes" vote as is so I doubt I'll be missed. The posts in this thread alone also show that it's an issue that you're almost not allowed to vote against anyway from a social acceptability standpoint which also will help carry it.

    Personally though I have no friends or relatives who'd be affected by this so hence it's not an issue that I'm interested enough in to go out of my way for.

    There's a lot of legalized discrimination that needs to be tackled .. look at how men/fathers are treated in divorce courts/custody battles for example.

    This is the problem with polls. If everyone addopts the "ah sure it's a done deal" attitude, you'll get a right shock if it's a no due to poor turnout!

    If you have an opinion on this : Vote! It's 10 minutes out of your day. I've never, ever found Irish polling stations anything other than pretty friendly, fast and efficient.


  • #1479
    GalwayGuitar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭GalwayGuitar


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    I am not asking for you to lie I am just a little shocked that there are people out there in the world who can see injustice and are just like 'bleh don't care'. Its just not the way people I know think. Ever.

    Also people need to realise it is not simply about 'gay marriage' or 'gay rights' when any group or individual has their rights diminished it diminishes all of us.

    I sure many people, when asked, will say they're voting yes, but when the day comes they won't bother voting or might even vote no. They'll give the answer they think they're expected to give.


  • #1480
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The one issue I'm a bit annoyed at is that polling stations near me are in religious institutions.

    To vote, I have to walk right up the steps of a church, past loads of statues etc etc.

    They really should have polling in neutral venues with lots of parking. I always thought that shopping centres should be required to facilitate polling stations as part of their planning permission.

    Vote & coffee and supermarket works for most people.

    Also, if you'd a digital register, people could cast a vote anywhere. You should be able to print a ballot paper at any station.

    I also don't understand why e-voting couldn't be handled like the national lottery machines. Fill in your ballot, print out a receipt and stick that into the box.

    Primary count could be electronic then and you'd have a paper trail for verification.


  • #1481
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    GalwayGuitar wrote: »
    I sure many people, when asked, will say they're voting yes, but when the day comes they won't bother voting or might even vote no. They'll give the answer they think they're expected to give.

    You have said you are not going to vote at all. Also being a lazy but truthful still means your lazy.


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  • #1482
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    This is the problem with polls. If everyone addopts the "ah sure it's a done deal" attitude, you'll get a right shock if it's a no due to poor turnout!

    If you have an opinion on this : Vote! It's 10 minutes out of your day. I've never, ever found Irish polling stations anything other than pretty friendly, fast and efficient.


    That's because there are so few people there ;)


  • #1483
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,606 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The one issue I'm a bit annoyed at is that polling stations near me are in religious institutions.

    To vote, I have to walk right up the steps of a church, past loads of statues etc etc.

    They really should have polling in neutral venues with lots of parking. I always thought that shopping centres should be required to facilitate polling stations as part of their planning permission.

    Vote & coffee and supermarket works for most people.

    Also, if you'd a digital register, people could cast a vote anywhere. You should be able to print a ballot paper at any station.

    I also don't understand why e-voting couldn't be handled like the national lottery machines. Fill in your ballot, print out a receipt and stick that into the box.

    Primary count could be electronic then and you'd have a paper trail for verification.

    An online system is well overdue. Something like your PPS and a PIN and password

    If it's good enough for Revenue...


  • #1484
    GalwayGuitar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭GalwayGuitar


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    You have said you are not going to vote at all. Also being a lazy but truthful still means your lazy.

    I think I can live with that.


  • #1485
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    That's because there are so few people there ;)

    Turnouts by international comparisons tend to be quite respectable in Ireland.


  • #1486
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Sorry, but if the topic of civil marriage can be discussed on a thread about how you will vote in a referendum, then I don't see why religious marriage wouldn't have a place in the wider discussion too ... Surely it is a good thing to get people's opinions across all facets of the topic? All I did was ask a question on that facet, nobody had to answer it if they weren't interested.

    I am for civil marriage for everyone by the way, just in case you missed it. And I think that both topics are fine for discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I don't really understand why people have an issue with what I asked.

    Because, firstly it is unhelpful in the context of the upcoming referendum to link the two issues. Some people ready do, and may potentially vote down the referendum for fear of what it means to religious marriage.

    So it's important that we state clearly and separately that they are separate issues.


    Secondly, it's really not appropriate to debate what any given religions stance should be, or whether they change.

    That is ultimately a matter for the religion concerned and their members. And there isn't a single right or wrong answer to the issue - it's ultimately about what people believe their religion requires.

    So there is little on a bunch of people from various faiths debating what one or more religions should belief.


  • #1487
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,292 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    An online system is well overdue. Something like your PPS and a PIN and password

    If it's good enough for Revenue...

    Revenue's system is a bug riddled outdated piece of garbage


  • #1488
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    lazygal wrote: »
    Religious ceremonies are completely irrelevant. Private clubs who can provide non civil legal ceremonies can set their own rules. As someone who had a civil marriage religious considerations never entered my head as something to think about when I married.

    Are they legal ceremonies? I thought that it was legally meaningless until you sign the civil register after the service.


  • #1489
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    lazygal wrote: »
    Religious ceremonies are completely irrelevant. Private clubs who can provide non civil legal ceremonies can set their own rules. As someone who had a civil marriage religious considerations never entered my head as something to think about when I married.

    I understand what you are saying. But it should be clear that your view might not be the case for someone in this position who was of a religious persuasion. For instance, say a child was raised a catholic and believed in the religion personally. But as they develop to adolescence they find they are homosexual - probably a situation some have had to deal with in Ireland. This is what I was getting at, but people seem a bit militant towards this facet so I wont keep discussing it.


  • #1490
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    An online system is well overdue. Something like your PPS and a PIN and password

    If it's good enough for Revenue...

    Oh bejeepers! You couldn't be having that!
    A pencil and an arseways electoral register that seems to allow duplicate registrations in multiple constituencies is FAR safer.

    Nobody would ever vote twice and there's no risk of anyone rubbing out a pencil mark.

    Why exactly do we use pencils anyway?
    Is some electoral commission still investigating Biro technology for compatibility with the constitution?


  • #1491
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,160 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Dark Artist wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on this? Who, apart from the LGBT community, is this going to affect and in what way? You can't say that it's not a personal issue because the fundamental topic for debate is whether fully grown consenting adults are allowed to legally marry those they're in love with and raise children. The only bigger picture is that society is currently making such marriages and families everyone else's business and preventing private relationships from developing.


    You answered your own question there. Every member of society will be affected by this legislation because the whole point of it is to give equal recognition to marriages and families of LGBT people and their children the same as those of heterosexual people and their children. The State currently recognises that the family is the foundation of society and that the institute of marriage offers the family the protection of society. This referendum is about extending the protection of society to LGBT families and their children. It's not about allowing or denying private relationships from developing, it's about offering them the equal protection of the State.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    I have very transparently been a fan boy of nozz for some time. Years even. And comically recently a re-reg account of a very prolific poster unfairly (to nozz) put me in the same sentence as calling nozz one of the "intellectual powerhouses" of this forum.


    Well aren't you just precious. Yet from that same post you quoted, it seems you missed this bit -

    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Nobody was slinging mud here until you started your selective quoting out of context in an attempt to win a discussion on the internet. They understand the idea of attack the post, not the poster. When I go up against the likes of intellectual powerhouses like The Corinthian, taxAhCruel and nozzferrahtoo, it's intimidating, but at least I know they won't attempt to undermine my opinion by stooping to scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to humiliate me. Anything less is just behaving like a dick.


    Turns out I was mistaken, because here you are behaving like a dick.

    I do not know how many of the "yes" side are actually reading this thread given all that must be going on in their world right now - but if they do not find some way to hire Nozz for this campaign it would be a sin. He has been consistently patient and coherent on this thread since it started. And the result of his posts has not been "no" siders strong reactions - it has actually been stunted silence. Which is a powerful tool in any campaign.

    And his history on this forum makes me believe he would remain that consistent throughout any campaign.

    Any of you "yes" voters out there - find some way to get this guy on the campaign trail. Soon.


    No thanks, at least not if you don't want to tank the whole campaign. The reason there's been no response is simply because posters couldn't be arsed, not because there were any points made worth refuting.

    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well that makes probably two of the three or four most ardently anti-same sex marriage advocates in this thread teenagers who just finished their leaving certs then, which explains a lot.


    Should we also dismiss the opinions of LGBT youth who have just finished their Leaving Cert? I'm not sure alienating a core demographic is a good strategy. They may be too young to vote, but they speak a lot more sense than a lot of the back and forth bitching and devious tactics like dragging up posters histories I've seen going on in here. It's dickish behaviour, and for people that are saying this referendum is going to get nasty, well, it really doesn't have to go that way.

    Between them they're not exactly painting the prettiest picture of the average 'no' voter.


    There are some posters here are hardly painting the prettiest picture of the 'yes' campaign either, but thankfully they're far from the average 'yes' voter. They're enough to cause voter apathy and campaign fatigue though, and I worry that the 80%+ support we've seen could easily be tanked by the efforts of the 20% of advocates of LGBT equality to go after the 20% of the electorate who are against the idea.

    Concentrate on the 80% support, make this a positive campaign, that way the 20% against won't gain any ground. I personally will be avoiding all the political posturing and media "debates" around this issue as I don't think it's likely anyone will change their mind about this issue, but I do think it's more important to concentrate our efforts on supporting those people who support us, rather than getting distracted by those who don't.

    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I've been thinking about this today. It seems to me there is a lot of people here on the yes side who could really direct their energies to something productive.

    Personally I will be helping my Local YesEquality campaign and volunteering a large amount with them over the next 4 months and I would encourage all Yes Voters to actively engage with the campaign in some way.

    Here's the YesEquality details.

    https://www.yesequality.ie/
    https://www.facebook.com/yesequality
    https://www.twitter.com/YesEquality2015
    https://www.facebook.com/YesEqualityWicklow
    https://www.facebook.com/yesequalitydonegal
    https://www.facebook.com/YesEqualityLimerick
    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=813347945396642
    https://www.facebook.com/Westmeathforequality
    https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1506512519609561
    https://www.facebook.com/YesEqualityDublinBayNorth

    I also love this piece from Rachel Mathews McKay of SIPTU LGBTQ in GCN and I think it has some very important points to make.


    Fantastic post and article included, I can only hope people will get involved in local campaigns in their area and leave the political peacocking and posturing to the minority who want to engage in petty bickering rather than improve society for everyone.


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  • #1492
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,292 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying. But it should be clear that your view might not be the case for someone in this position who was of a religious persuasion. For instance, say a child was raised a catholic and believed in the religion personally. But as they develop to adolescence they find they are homosexual - probably a situation some have had to deal with in Ireland. This is what I was getting at, but people seem a bit militant towards this facet so I wont keep discussing it.

    Again then that is up to the specific religion and it's members and not something that needs to be discussed as part of a national referendum on civil marriage. This is about making homosexuals equal as far as civil marriage in the eyes of the law is concerned and if someone who is catholic or whatever cannot get married in a religious ceremony then they still have the option to do it in a civil one.


  • #1493
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    GalwayGuitar wrote: »
    I think I can live with that.

    Good for you. Hope it passes and I hope you never have to meet someone who has had their rights refused and their citizenship diminished and have to think to yourself I could have been a decent person and you know got my **** together and voted.


  • #1494
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    kylith wrote: »
    Are they legal ceremonies? I thought that it was legally meaningless until you sign the civil register after the service.

    You can HSE Registrars do a ceremony in many venues, and you can also have humanist and spirtualists conduct the ceremonies for you. In both instances, they are recognised celebrants, and the ceremony is binding on the signature of the necessary docs at the venue.


  • #1495
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    floggg wrote: »
    You can HSE Registrars do a ceremony in many venues, and you can also have humanist and spirtualists conduct the ceremonies for you. In both instances, they are recognised celebrants, and the ceremony is binding on the signature of the necessary docs at the venue.

    People having church weddings also have to sign the register from the hse. That's why most Catholic weddings are just mass with a marriage ceremony in the middle to make things legal.


  • #1496
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying. But it should be clear that your view might not be the case for someone in this position who was of a religious persuasion. For instance, say a child was raised a catholic and believed in the religion personally. But as they develop to adolescence they find they are homosexual - probably a situation some have had to deal with in Ireland. This is what I was getting at, but people seem a bit militant towards this facet so I wont keep discussing it.
    If you're not eligible for a Catholic or religious wedding you can't force the religious powers that be to marry you. There are rules about civil ceremonies you cant get around too. Why would the rules of a religious group impact on civil marriage rules?


  • #1497
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    kylith wrote: »
    Are they legal ceremonies? I thought that it was legally meaningless until you sign the civil register after the service.

    Humanist ceremonies are secular. Spiritualist ones are religious. Only the hse provides civil ceremonies.


  • #1498
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    lazygal wrote: »
    If you're not eligible for a Catholic or religious wedding you can't force the religious powers that be to marry you. There are rules about civil ceremonies you cant get around too. Why would the rules of a religious group impact on civil marriage rules?

    Who said they would?


  • #1499
    flunkyfearsome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭flunkyfearsome


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Who said they would?

    It seems to be your just running around the block to suit your own mindset with stupid arguments, the church have rules about not allowing divorced people remarry but I know a few high profiled Dublin couples that have had church blessings.
    ➕ we talking bout CIVIL MARRIAGE and not anything else.


  • #1500
    flunkyfearsome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭flunkyfearsome


    Maybe we should go the route of other European countries and make everyone have a Civil ceremony first and those who want blessings or Humanist ceremonies can do so.


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  • #1501
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Who said they would?

    You did. Why did you bring religious ceremonies into a debate on civil marriage eligibility?


This discussion has been closed.
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