Bandit stories

Russman · 20-12-2014 01:58PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think it is too slow and above needed an ESR - I'm giving a straight cut of 8.

That lad should not now have a 44 in him .

But you can't set limits on somebody's potential. There will always be a time lag between the handicap catching up with someone as they improve. Just because some guy shoots 44pts someday doesn't mean the whole system needs changing. Might as well give every junior a handicap of 5 when they start as they'll almost all shoot a few mad scores as they improve and come down.

DuckSlice · 20-12-2014 05:05PM

When it comes to bandits I just let them be. Whatever they do won't effect me as I don't play golf to win prizes I play to beat myself. Everytime I play I go out with the intention of beating my best score and getting cut.

You will never stop them, if gui stop the .1's for NR then they will just deliberately play badly.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 05:45PM

I'm pretty sure that we are not going to change the handicap system

But genuinely feel you could compress golfers into a narrower band of performance. Again to remind people we are all meant to be handicapped to an exact level of equal performance. I’m offering a very generous 40 points.
Is there a golfer on here who doesn’t think 40 points is a great score ?
I’m not preventing people score higher – it is just a more aggressive cut. It brings this individual back to the pack – but still a high performer.

I know we are going into a theoretical conversation here.

But the guy who has the round of his life and gets 44 points – I’m only shifting him back to a mid point – we all should be able to achieve the midpoint of the round of our life. He is still very competitive . And if not his handicap will go up – what is the big deal , this is a lad that went say level par off 8 . Fair play to him – I’d be delighted to go to 4 if I had a level par round. I’d still fancy getting 40 points if I went level and anyway in this sytem 36 points is close to a win. And you know what – if I get to 40 points I’m in the mix again as all golfers are exposed to a handicap compression.

I don’t think a lad who gets 48 points has had a round of his life, he may have – but it means he needs a new handicap that reflects his ability and he needs it quick.

I think if scores are regularly coming in in the mid 40s – they are on the wrong handicap . I’m not around formal golf too long. But- I would not be adjusting these lads with point anythings and it would not be linear.
Sorry – I know it is a daft conversation a bit out there. But I think if a lad scores in 40s – he needs a serious cut and be brought back to the field. He is only being brought back to make the game the way it should be.
The handicaps rise too is another days debate – but The high scores is what I’m talking about.
This would root out bandits – or at least bring the bandits back to a reachable level.

This is a bit out there - but I think this problem needs to be looked at - maybe another idea would work - but don't make it easy for bandits to pull away and don't let them do it too many times.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 05:49PM

etxp wrote: »

When it comes to bandits I just let them be. Whatever they do won't effect me as I don't play golf to win prizes I play to beat myself. Everytime I play I go out with the intention of beating my best score and getting cut.

You will never stop them, if gui stop the .1's for NR then they will just deliberately play badly.

I thnk this is often said - it is very noble and honorable - but I think as golfers we have given in when we say this.

If we say above - why don't we just scrap the handicap system all together.

All play off scratch.

Some people like competition - from the first time they were given a ball or swam or ran as kids. Then they go into golf and are faced with the crap that goes on.

If there are bandits - sort out the system - yes they will try and cheat anyway - but make it bloody hard.

Russman · 20-12-2014 06:05PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I thnk this is often said - it is very noble and honorable - but I think as golfers we have given in when we say this.

If we say above - why don't we just scrap the handicap system all together.

All play off scratch.

Some people like competition - from the first time they were given a ball or swam or ran as kids. Then they go into golf and are faced with the crap that goes on.

If there are bandits - sort out the system - yes they will try and cheat anyway - but make it bloody hard.

But you'll eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. Human nature will ensure some people always try to gain an advantage outside the rules. You can't keep changing the rules to a point where it becomes either too contrived or too onerous. The vast, vast majority of golfers are handicapped correctly and the vast, vast majority play honestly. At the same time, an awful lot of honest golfers play for the enjoyment of the game rather than purely getting cut. We don't want a situation where honest Joe who rarely plays to his handicap but usually has a good score once or twice a year and loves the anticipation that today might be the day, is on a real good round and thinks "if I have 42pts today I'll lose 3 shots and even though I'm rarely competitive, I've no chance at all for the next few years if that happens" or thoughts to that effect.

DuckSlice · 20-12-2014 06:08PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I thnk this is often said - it is very noble and honorable - but I think as golfers we have given in when we say this.

If we say above - why don't we just scrap the handicap system all together.

All play off scratch.

Some people like competition - from the first time they were given a ball or swam or ran as kids. Then they go into golf and are faced with the crap that goes on.

If there are bandits - sort out the system - yes they will try and cheat anyway - but make it bloody hard.

The point is a bandit will never say what I said, because they are playing to win prizes. Don't get me wrong I like to win, I like to see my name in the paper when I win.

All they care about is getting there prize and then getting there handicap back up for the next big competition.

Russman · 20-12-2014 06:17PM

etxp wrote: »

The point is a bandit will never say what I said, because they are playing to win prizes. Don't get me wrong I like to win, I like to see my name in the paper when I win.

All they care about is getting there prize and then getting there handicap back up for the next big competition.

It's all about intent and that why it's so hard to make good rules for it. Most golfers, unless they are on a serious improvement curve, will go back up in handicap after they have a good score, nobody plays well all the time. I bet we've all had score in the 40s followed by a run of scores in the low 30s and intentionally or unintentionally, we're back to not far off where we started.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 06:21PM

Russman wrote: »

But you'll eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. Human nature will ensure some people always try to gain an advantage outside the rules. You can't keep changing the rules to a point where it becomes either too contrived or too onerous. The vast, vast majority of golfers are handicapped correctly and the vast, vast majority play honestly. At the same time, an awful lot of honest golfers play for the enjoyment of the game rather than purely getting cut. We don't want a situation where honest Joe who rarely plays to his handicap but usually has a good score once or twice a year and loves the anticipation that today might be the day, is on a real good round and thinks "if I have 42pts today I'll lose 3 shots and even though I'm rarely competitive, I've no chance at all for the next few years if that happens" or thoughts to that effect.

He would only lose 2 shots - this is not an unusual cut.
My idea is harsher for the lads who are higher - Again it is not harsh in a way - they are still being brought to 40.

A radical idea would be to supress all scores to 36 - this would mean if you play to your handcap at all you are in the mix.

Again he is only been forced back to the upper max.

The next time he gets 40 - he will be near a win.

Anyway - going in circles , but believe you can design the system to not catch bandits - but have a narrow band that you can beat them.

Again it does not stop you going out and having 45 points - if a real bandit has to pull at 40 - fantastic. I have him.

With this system the 40+ scores would be far more unusual - over time would be gone from club golf. And every golfer could actually take on a bandit.

You don't have to score as high to win.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 06:33PM

Bye for now.

I am saying, cause a point of fear for bandits - real golfers wouldn't give a ****. Make this point, a point we can all reach and win.

You could adjust the way handicaps go up too - but another days debate.

It goes to show how bad things are - when lads on here are saying guys would pull at 40. (lol)

A real golfer never ever pulls. He would love a "crazy" cut due to his great round - and a real golfer may get to 41 - 42 - 43 , but he could handle the cut anyway. And would enjoy it. He is only being forced back to 40 , he is well able for it.

You cut make the cut bigger and non linear too. Give him real fear.

Russman · 20-12-2014 06:54PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

He would only lose 2 shots - this is not an unusual cut.
My idea is harsher for the lads who are higher - Again it is not harsh in a way - they are still being brought to 40.

A radiclal idea would be to supress all scores to 36 - this would mean if you play to your handcap at all you are in the mix.

Again he is only been forced back to the upper max.

The next time he gets 40 - he will be near a win.

Anyway - going in circles , but believe you can design the system to not catch bandits - but have a narrow band that you can beat them.

Again it does not stop you going out and having 45 points - if a real bandit has to pull at 40 - fantastic. I have him.

With this system the 40+ scores would be far more unusual - over time would be gone from club golf. And every golfer could actaully take on a bandit.

You don't have to score as high to win.

Would it not be 3 shots ? 2 for each point over 40 and the the normal for breaking CSS if it was, say 36pts ? Anyway, that's semantics.

I think there's a bigger picture though. Certainly where I play, it's rare enough to see a score in the 40s, if you've 36 or definitely 37, you'll be in the mix most weeks. When the rough was up earlier in the year 34 or 35 often won. You get the odd 40/41 but it's very rare and IMO the system deals with it. I think it's up to the individual clubs where these mid 40s scores are common to actually apply the rules that are already there rather than reinvent the wheel.

The overly harsh regime would play havoc with interclub teams also, you'll potentially have guys who aren't actually bandits in danger of their one good round of the year taking them out of eligibility for, we'll say, the Metro for the following year. I can understand a guy thinking "f--k this, if I par the last I'll miss out on the Metro next year and for a sh1tty €25 voucher...." I've seen ESR have the same impact on some guys thought processes.

The guy shooting the lights out in a random Sunday singles isn't a real bandit, you need to look at the bigger comps to find the real ones, if there are any. Our Captains Prize was won with 74pts over 2 rounds, hardly bandit country. Ten years ago you'd have needed 80, I think the system works despite it's flaws.

slave1 · 20-12-2014 06:59PM

Whatever about bandits pulling scores etc. there's no way around the folk out there who just write down a different score that what they got, it happens and if not with the involvement of the marker bandits will do it after their card has been signed. Very sad but very true.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 07:03PM

slave1 wrote: »

Whatever about bandits pulling scores etc. there's no way around the folk out there who just write down a different score that what they got, it happens and if not with the involvement of the marker bandits will do it after their card has been signed. Very sad but very true.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Russman · 20-12-2014 07:06PM

slave1 wrote: »

Whatever about bandits pulling scores etc. there's no way around the folk out there who just write down a different score that what they got, it happens and if not with the involvement of the marker bandits will do it after their card has been signed. Very sad but very true.

To be fair to them, they do count most of their shots......:D

one man clappin · 20-12-2014 10:54PM

I know a guy whose GUI handicap is 21 or 22. In our local society his handicap was cut to 14 because he was winning so many of them. Played during the year and he came in with 40 points off 14 hanicap.

The_Kew_Tour · 20-12-2014 11:55PM

I would rather play off Scratch and never win a prize, then win every Crystal shape out there and play off 20.

Maybe that's just me.

Slicemeister · 21-12-2014 12:36AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I would rather play off Scratch and never win a prize, then win every Crystal shape out there and play off 20.

Maybe that's just me.

I know plenty of low fellas who should be even lower. Not just the high lads guilty of this, as seen in a thread which isn't here anymore recently.

Russman · 21-12-2014 12:55AM

Slicemeister wrote: »

I know plenty of low fellas who should be even lower. Not just the high lads guilty of this, as seen in a thread which isn't here anymore recently.

Much harder to legitimately stay low than to get low though. When one shot can be 25% or 50% or all of your handicap I reckon it's hard to condemn a low man as a bandit. It'd be really only someone stuck in no-mans land off 3, where he's too low for junior scratches & too high for senior scratches and he might be happy to drift out to 4 or 5. It's pretty hard in that handicap region not to get 0.1 anyway when you play. I wouldn't say they'd fall into the traditional meaning of bandits.
If anything the big problem is low guys not putting in cards that would get them 0.1 and artificially staying low IMHO.

GreeBo · 21-12-2014 11:17AM

The basic lack of understanding promotes the idea of banditry in golf.
Its not half as pervasive as people think.

Most golfers are around 16-20 handicap.
At that level you are expected to have scores in the 40's sometimes.
If you are having them frequently then you are not a bandit as you are getting cut.
If you have them sometimes you are playing as expected.

People moan about needing 40 points to win a comp due to bandits, its not, its to do with how golfers are expected to score.
The worse you are the more chance you have for improvement, the single figure golfer is not expected to play 10 shots better than their handicap very much at all.

Stop comparing yourselves to other people and compare yourself to SSS, you are playing the course, let everyone else do whatever it is they want, or you think they are doing.

slave1 · 21-12-2014 11:31AM

one man clappin wrote: »

I know a guy whose GUI handicap is 21 or 22. In our local society his handicap was cut to 14 because he was winning so many of them. Played during the year and he came in with 40 points off 14 hanicap.

You know I've always been of the option that society golf handicap system is not about ability, it's about balancing prizes.
I've been involved in a few societies and even though the approach is different I now feel the result is more a reflection of ability even though that is not the aim. The bandits win and have severe adjustments in societies because the approach is to cut them well back to allow others a chance of winning, the honest golfer probably has fek all adjustment to their GUI because they don't need it.
Funnily enough, I've found after many years that it's actually the lower handicappers that are the bandits in society golf, not the higher golfers, go figure!

GreeBo · 21-12-2014 11:38AM

slave1 wrote: »

You know I've always been of the option that society golf handicap system is not about ability, it's about balancing prizes.
I've been involved in a few societies and even though the approach is different I now feel the result is more a reflection of ability even though that is not the aim. The bandits win and have severe adjustments in societies because the approach is to cut them well back to allow others a chance of winning, the honest golfer probably has fek all adjustment to their GUI because they don't need it.
Funnily enough, I've found after many years that it's actually the lower handicappers that are the bandits in society golf, not the higher golfers, go figure!

And maybe thats the problem, lots of people come to golf from society golf where handicaps are for prizes or how you played compared to everyone else rather than how you played against the course.

In small societies the lower handicaps will always feature more, assuming "normal" handicapping, because lower handicaps will always score closer to par than higher handicaps and unless you have a large number of high guys (allowing one of them to have one of those days) the low guys will clean up.

Society golf shouldnt be compared to GUI golf imo, it sets unrealistic expectations.

Russman · 21-12-2014 11:46AM

GreeBo wrote: »

The basic lack of understanding promotes the idea of banditry in golf.
Its not half as pervasive as people think.

Most golfers are around 16-20 handicap.
At that level you are expected to have scores in the 40's sometimes.
If you are having them frequently then you are not a bandit as you are getting cut.
If you have them sometimes you are playing as expected.

People moan about needing 40 points to win a comp due to bandits, its not, its to do with how golfers are expected to score.
The worse you are the more chance you have for improvement, the single figure golfer is not expected to play 10 shots better than their handicap very much at all.

Stop comparing yourselves to other people and compare yourself to SSS, you are playing the course, let everyone else do whatever it is they want, or you think they are doing.

This ^^^^, a thousand times this !!!

The reality is that out of a field of 120 players, chances are someone is going to play well above themselves. It's not nearly as sinister as people like to think.

DuckSlice · 21-12-2014 02:08PM

I wouldn't call someone getting 40 points a bandit. In my club you need at least 39pts to have a chance of winning out of a group of 30-40 competitors.

Banditry is winning the captains prize three years in a row off the same handicap. And mentioning it in your speech.

onlyfinewine · 21-12-2014 02:50PM

How does 42 points for a 13 hole fourball sound? It takes at least 39 to win in our Hamper competition.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 03:15PM

etxp wrote: »

I wouldn't call someone getting 40 points a bandit. In my club you need at least 39pts to have a chance of winning out of a group of 30-40 competitors.

Banditry is winning the captains prize three years in a row off the same handicap. And mentioning it in your speech.

Nobody has said someone on 40 points is a bandit. I'm saying you could design system where all golfers are closer to a win.

I've an issue with a couple of scores at 45 + .

I've a serious issue with 48 points. I want this guy cut aggressively and immediately. He would still be able to win the following week - with a good performance.

I'm not even saying this guy at 48 is a bandit - I'm saying it brings the system into disrepute if his handicap is not corrected. I'm saying that performance is a KPI of his new ability.

For very high scores - I'm saying linear adjustment is bad maths.

I'm saying bandits would not like this.

I'm saying it will catch them.

I'm saying you can catch them now.

I'm saying the system could be designed to narrow the performance band.

I'd rather be more aggressive than I have even suggested - I don't think anyone should be able to sustain scores in 40s. But I’m offering reasonable tolerance.

I'm saying this is mathematically simple to do.

I'm saying - it doesn't matter what I am saying - it won't change

Russman · 21-12-2014 04:19PM

That system (more or less) was tried back, I dunno, 25 years ago or something, where you lost a full shot for every shot you broke standard scratch by. Fellas just made sure they didn't go crazy. It had its merits but I think it was broadly regarded as too harsh. Lots of fellas got to scratch that wouldn't get within shouting distance of it under the current system.

Bandits (real ones) will always play the system, and if the system is too harsh, genuine players will despise it and could cross over into bandit/manipulation territory. Someone losing say 2 or 3 shots after a great score will mostly see it as a reward, change that to 5 or 6 shots and it will mostly be seen as a punishment.

I don't believe for a second that there are that many players shooting 48pts in singles comps anyway tbh.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 06:10PM

Russman wrote: »

That system (more or less) was tried back, I dunno, 25 years ago or something, where you lost a full shot for every shot you broke standard scratch by. Fellas just made sure they didn't go crazy. It had its merits but I think it was broadly regarded as too harsh. Lots of fellas got to scratch that wouldn't get within shouting distance of it under the current system.

Bandits (real ones) will always play the system, and if the system is too harsh, genuine players will despise it and could cross over into bandit/manipulation territory. Someone losing say 2 or 3 shots after a great score will mostly see it as a reward, change that to 5 or 6 shots and it will mostly be seen as a punishment.

I don't believe for a second that there are that many players shooting 48pts in singles comps anyway tbh.

But - I'm offering a better system as the existing CONGU rules apply till +4. It is a hybrid system.
I'm saying create fear for lads who have shots in them that fear cuts. Good players would not fear being able to score 40 points or fear cuts over golf in the 40s. Anyway - lads wont be in the 40 as much. Hard to explain (lol)

It is hard to explain - I'd need a class room and graphs. (lol) and excel.

Anyway - good to see something was tried , I genuinely think you can't beat bandits - but you can control their range.

That is all - finished.

Head spinning with this and looking at the way Liverpool scoring has been suppressed. They have had a harsh cut.

cairny · 21-12-2014 07:33PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But - I'm offering a better system as the existing CONGU rules apply till +4. It is a hybrid system.
I'm saying create fear for lads who have shots in them that fear cuts. Good players would not fear being able to score 40 points or fear cuts over golf in the 40s. Anyway - lads wont be in the 40 as much. Hard to explain (lol)

It is hard to explain - I'd need a class room and graphs. (lol) and excel.

Anyway - good to see something was tried , I genuinely think you can't beat bandits - but you can control their range.

That is all - finished.

Head spinning with this and looking at the way Liverpool scoring has been suppressed. They have had a harsh cut.

You ever play an American or watch the Pebble Beach Pro Am thingy? Their handicaps are laughable...12 handicaps that look like it's their first time on a course.

Congu system is brilliant imo, gives you a very accurate assessment of where you're at if you stick to the rules. Let the bandits to their baubles, I want to earn my cuts so that they mean something.

First Up · 21-12-2014 09:46PM

cairny wrote: »

You ever play an American or watch the Pebble Beach Pro Am thingy? Their handicaps are laughable...12 handicaps that look like it's their first time on a course.

Congu system is brilliant imo, gives you a very accurate assessment of where you're at if you stick to the rules. Let the bandits to their baubles, I want to earn my cuts so that they mean something.

Handicaps in the US are a complete joke. Club competitions are rare and handicaps are issued simply by entering (unattested) scores into the club computer.
Furthermore, rules violations are commonplace. Improved lies, gimmies, mulligans, treating O/B as a penalty drop and more. I've played with guys who claim single figures who couldn't break 100 around Leapardstown.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 09:55PM

First Up wrote: »

Handicaps in the US are a complete joke. Club competitions are rare and handicaps are issued simply by entering (unattested) scores into the club computer.
Furthermore, rules violations are commonplace. Improved lies, gimmies, mulligans, treating O/B as a penalty drop and more. I've played with guys who claim single figures who couldn't break 100 around Leapardstown.

:D:D

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 10:12PM

lads how are we posting so much over last few days ?
I'm just bored and no real golf on or to look forward to.

A little side story about US.
I had a friend in states - played with him for 3 months - he never once beat me in about 30 games - I was off 12 (Irish) and was off 15 (US) over there. I didn't understand how he was not giving me a good game. Didn't know much about handicaps at the time. Still don't

Lost touch for about 5 years.

Got onto him on facebook and he is now a pro at a golf club :eek:
My best score was a 76 at the time - he said to me so was his as a pro

America is great - you can be anything you want. With enough will power.
You have to be 15 over over 2 rounds on the same course to pass what is called a PAT (Playing Ability Test). Fair play to him.

Bandit stories

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