Bandit stories

benny79 · 19-12-2014 12:57PM

Fcuk them thats what I say! I play the game to get my HC down sadly has nt happened yet, but I don't care about winning comps, obviously if it happens Id be delighted but id be more delighted not winning and getting a cut..(The prizes are mainly **** anyway) I constantly have played with auld lads at my club who have been there for years and would be off 24 or that yet getting 3/4 pars a round, always winning something at least once a year, even playing with them you know they should be lower! Im there 3 years and havent even come close..

I asked one fella I know from around the club (nice chap) was he entering the the Captains day and his response was no sure more than likely a bandit will when it and if I did happen to play well and shoot the lights out Id be cast as a bandit! and the winner that won was off 22 with 49 points! my father in law who does play the game, but is from my town told me, seemly lads in the pub were talking about it saying he was caught before cheating and only got a 3 months suspension or something and is know for it etc.. etc... and to top it off only got cut 2 or 3..

but as a member told me they set the precedent by only giving a small suspension the first time..
so the moral of the story really is your damned if you do & your damned if you dont win.

Rikand · 19-12-2014 01:00PM

First Up wrote: »

Clubs do have the option of cutting handicaps on observation or for suspected "handicap building". One club rather famously incurred a lengthy (but eventually successful) court case over it.

The GUI also get involved in this and can audit clubs if they suspect their handicap affairs are not being dealt with correctly. I know of a club who were audited by the GUI, did not comply with what was layed down by the GUI from that audit and were subsequently suspended from the GUI until they did comply.

benny79 · 19-12-2014 01:07PM

I find a lot of clubs are struggling now so time and staff is in short supply and most are volunteers.

I asked my competition Sec why the results weren't be updated on the club website and he told me he hasn't time check, log onto how do I do if you want the results or the noticeboard in club!

BigChap1759 · 19-12-2014 01:09PM

Seriously lads, do we really need this thread?? Already enough lads whinging on about bandits and how they can't win anything because of the bandits.

It's the worst thing about this board IMO......:mad:

newport2 · 19-12-2014 01:10PM

Russman wrote: »

I wouldn't think that's a particularly unusual trend though, no ? Apart from the week-in week-out part. If someone is consistently turning in 38-42pts they're surely getting cut at a quicker rate than they can get 0.1s back ? or the CSS is whacky !

If they're not doing it consistently and do it maybe twice a year, I'd say its quite normal to finish where you started or thereabouts. Most golfers play poorly relative to their handicap almost all the time, if they have one or two good rounds where they lose a shot or two, they'll almost certainly have 20 or 30 bad rounds where they get 0.1 without "trying to" get one.

To be honest I think there's a huge element of Chinese whisper or "bar talk" about claims of banditry - not your post above, but in general. Golfers like to talk and exaggerate stuff. We never seem to have a bad day, its always someone else is a bandit.
IMHO singles comps tend to look after themselves, someone consistently winning 4 balls or team events is where to look for real bandits.

OK, he didn't quite finish where he started, I exaggerated a little. The guy in question is retired, so a lot of .1's regained from midweek play. He started the year off 10 but IMO was about a 6. He's now down to 5, mainly due to the ESR kicking in and cutting an additional 2 shots. He's still turning in over 36 point scores regularly and has admitted he doesn't want to be cut any lower because he won't win. He's a pleasant guy and a very nice golfer. It's just a pity he doesn't see a target as being the clubs best golfer as more worthy than winning weekly comps.

newport2 · 19-12-2014 01:11PM

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Seriously lads, do we really need this thread?? Already enough lads whinging on about bandits and how they can't win anything because of the bandits.

It's the worst thing about this board IMO......:mad:

Apologies, whinge over!!

gman127 · 19-12-2014 01:18PM

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Seriously lads, do we really need this thread?? Already enough lads whinging on about bandits and how they can't win anything because of the bandits.

It's the worst thing about this board IMO......:mad:

Surely if you don't like whinging about banditry then this thread should be great for you!

All the bandit stories in one place so now all you have to do is avoid this thread and you don't have to hear about it anymore!!

dan_ep82 · 19-12-2014 01:28PM

To be fair its probably better here than clogging up other threads

mikepajero182 · 19-12-2014 01:34PM

In my local club when the winter 9 hole comps start all the bandits come out. Couple weeks ago a 21 handicap player had 27 points to win the 9 holes. He went around in two over par.

First Up · 19-12-2014 01:51PM

newport2 wrote: »

OK, he didn't quite finish where he started, I exaggerated a little. The guy in question is retired, so a lot of .1's regained from midweek play. He started the year off 10 but IMO was about a 6. He's now down to 5, mainly due to the ESR kicking in and cutting an additional 2 shots. He's still turning in over 36 point scores regularly and has admitted he doesn't want to be cut any lower because he won't win. He's a pleasant guy and a very nice golfer. It's just a pity he doesn't see a target as being the clubs best golfer as more worthy than winning weekly comps.

It would still take quite a lot of effort to score well enough to win regularly, while also playing badly enough to keep his handicap up. If there is a regular, consistent pattern of this, the club has the discretion to take it up with him, either bringing him before the committee or just cutting him to match his better scores.
We all have a 40 pointer every now and then but if it looks contrived, it probably is.

slingerz · 19-12-2014 02:08PM

there are bandits in any club and i'm sure the pierce purcell will have a share in that. I do believe though for some of the players in the pierce purcell they are on an upward curve due to more play and practice so they so shoot the lights out at times.

i dont begrudge anyone really i started out at 21 and i know that it was by playing and practicing more that my handicap has come down to 14. I was also often called a 'bandit' by some due to the fact i was young and could hit it far and sometimes played some decent shots but what they didnt see was the midweek practice i had been doing around the course or the lessons i had been getting.

I am hopeful/confident that i will improve further in 2015 given the work i've been doing. i'll be playing pierce purcell too so i probably more accusations of banditry for me

shabalala · 19-12-2014 02:13PM

in my club we renamed it The Fierce Purcell.

It is just that.

Boskowski · 19-12-2014 02:18PM

mikepajero182 wrote: »

In my local club when the winter 9 hole comps start all the bandits come out. Couple weeks ago a 21 handicap player had 27 points to win the 9 holes. He went around in two over par.

Well un fairness there is also the winter rules aspect. High guys can tee it up nicely in the rough they wouldn't get out of in the summer where for low guys that doesn't matter so much.

Norfolk Enchants_ · 19-12-2014 02:44PM

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Seriously lads, do we really need this thread?? Already enough lads whinging on about bandits and how they can't win anything because of the bandits.

It's the worst thing about this board IMO......:mad:

Sounds like something a bandit would say.

BigChap1759 · 19-12-2014 03:02PM

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Sounds like something a bandit would say.

You're just still sour about The Open......:pac:

FixdePitchmark · 19-12-2014 03:06PM

I would change the handicap system - anyone over 40 points gets a handicap drop of 1 shot per point over 40. If they pull then - everyone still has a chance of winning. If they don't they get a drop to bring them back to the pack - if they get a big drop a real golfer would be happier. You could adjust rate of increase too.

Basically an upper limit that you are suppressed too - it would make competitions far more exciting too - as far more golfers would be in the mix and margins of victory would be tighter.

If a lad has a big win - he is back to the pack.

rooney30 · 19-12-2014 04:48PM

A guy at our club, won an open recently, 18 handicap. 48 points. Was 3 under for the back nine. 5 birdies on the card !

BigChap1759 · 19-12-2014 05:13PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I would change the handicap system - anyone over 40 points gets a handicap drop of 1 shot per point over 40. If they pull then - everyone still has a chance of winning. If they don't they get a drop to bring them back to the pack - if they get a big drop a real golfer would be happier. You could adjust rate of increase too.

Basically an upper limit that you are suppressed too - it would make competitions far more exciting too - as far more golfers would be in the mix and margins of victory would be tighter.

If a lad has a big win - he is back to the pack.

With the greatest of respect this would be completely Mickey Mouse, back of a fag packet type stuff.

The CONGU system isn't perfect but it's scientifically worked out and reviewed regularly.

DiegoWorst · 19-12-2014 05:20PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I would change the handicap system - anyone over 40 points gets a handicap drop of 1 shot per point over 40. If they pull then - everyone still has a chance of winning. If they don't they get a drop to bring them back to the pack - if they get a big drop a real golfer would be happier. You could adjust rate of increase too.

Basically an upper limit that you are suppressed too - it would make competitions far more exciting too - as far more golfers would be in the mix and margins of victory would be tighter.

If a lad has a big win - he is back to the pack.

Your suggestion may well be a good one. However, no matter what you do to change or improve a handicap system - guys will always find a way to fiddle it.

First Up · 19-12-2014 05:40PM

DiegoWorst wrote: »

Your suggestion may well be a good one. However, no matter what you do to change or improve a handicap system - guys will always find a way to fiddle it.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make it harder for them!

moycullen14 · 19-12-2014 05:56PM

Winter - the bandits favourite time of year

Handicap safely tucked up and lots of lovely turkeys to be won.

To qualify for bandit status at our club, you need to:

Have won more Captain's prizes than Turkeys
Never finish the year on a lower handicap than you started it.
Have won more than one foreign trip prize
Virtually unbeatable in club matchplays

We have at least half a dozen of these beauties

As someone said, they should really be studied. Their ability to produce good golf on demand must be the envy of every professional golfer.

What they seem to have in common is a very contrary outlook on life.

HighLine · 19-12-2014 06:24PM

moycullen14 wrote: »

Winter - the bandits favourite time of year

Handicap safely tucked up and lots of lovely turkeys to be won.

To qualify for bandit status at our club, you need to:
Have won more Captain's prizes than Turkeys

Never finish the year on a lower handicap than you started it.

Have won more than one foreign trip prize

Virtually unbeatable in club matchplays

We have at least half a dozen of these beauties

As someone said, they should really be studied. Their ability to produce good golf on demand must be the envy of every professional golfer.

What they seem to have in common is a very contrary outlook on life.

Oh yes, we have some of these fine gents in our club too. In fact their names have already started appearing on the winter winners results. They must be some variety of rare? species that can only play well in cold weather.

One such gent managed to get 20pts for the front 9 during the summer and then proceeded to walk in after 9 in order to gain his well deserved .1

slave1 · 19-12-2014 07:54PM

HighLine wrote: »

One such gent managed to get 20pts for the front 9 during the summer and then proceeded to walk in after 9 in order to gain his well deserved .1

Ah feck, that's disgusting, gotta stop NR's

galwaylad14 · 20-12-2014 09:05AM

slave1 wrote: »

Ah feck, that's disgusting, gotta stop NR's

The problem with stopping .1s for NRs come on the opposite end of the handicap scale. The vanity handicapper. The guy playing off a far lower handicap than he should in order to gain entry to national championships etc. in theory if there was no .1s then once a guy got to say scratch he'd be guaranteed entry forever in the big championships if he just stopped ever handing in cards that would lead to him getting a .1 and he'd be getting in ahead of say a 2 or 3 hcap who may be a better golfer but is handing in all his cards ( as he should) and thus is getting the normal amount of .1s, buffer zones and cuts. Where as the other guy is just either having an NR, buffer zone or a cut.

Unless maybe they stopped giving .1s for NRs for everyone bar the category 1 golfers?!

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 11:40AM

BigChap1759 wrote: »

With the greatest of respect this would be completely Mickey Mouse, back of a fag packet type stuff.

The CONGU system isn't perfect but it's scientifically worked out and reviewed regularly.

I'm not saying throw the system out. I'm saying deal with outliers and bring everybody into a reasonable range +/- 4. It is still an error of 11% .

Most mathematical / control systems, correct error very quickly. I'm saying people are tolerated with far too large a deviation.

I'm not being crazy or as radical as I would like - I'm just bringing people back to 40 points - or 4 shots outside were they should be. Use the congru system within the reasonable range.

The lad at 48 points - would lose 8 shots straight away. Most mathematical or scientific systems i deal with, would do more - but golf has to have a reasonable range. I'm saying the range is unreasonable. It wouldn't be mathematically or scientifically acceptable to be 11 % out - but I'll go with the desires of golfers to have a 40 in them - even if this is mathematically flawed. I'd also like to add that having a 40 in you is not the intention of golf either.

The lad at 48 points is fine - he is back to a range he can still win - but the key is, he is back to a range we can all win. Again, that is the point of golf. It is an unusual sport.

I'm a 100% honest golfer (I hope

) - my range is 32 to 40 - what is wrong with every golfer having this expectation - 95 % of golfers are honest - we are helping the 95 % .
I'm not even saying the 5 % are dishonest, we are helping them get within a reasonable range.

A lad coming in with 41 and 42 and not at the races is unacceptable - this is typically a great round , everyone is delighted for him , yet mr 48 points comes in. :eek:

Yes you may get a 48 - but the next week you are back in range.
As a golfer on the 18th heading for 40 points or more, you now know you are in the mix. There are very few outliers out there. And if there is one , he will be fixed today.

So the congru system is bad maths with too large a range - it is a linear and too basic and slow operating function - you could propose differential - squared function etc -- I'm not going there , keep it simple.

In these debates we forget that the objective of the handicap system is to keep everyone at the exact same point (exact) - I'd love to actually chase that , but i'm not , I'm saying you all have a 40 in you. But at 40 you are near a win or close to a win.

Narrow the range - make the game more competitive - deal with outliers quickly. Otherwise the system falls into disrepute.

It is not out of bitterness I say this - I just think the game would be better and more enjoyable for all and the 95 % would have a win in them no matter what.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 12:27PM

I think the current system is pretty good.
Wouldn't go changing it at all.

Assuming a guy off 20 suddenly has the abilility to shoot 8 over on a good day and he does so on his next two rounds.

20.0 HC shoots 8 over = 48 = 3.6 cut
=> 16.4 HC shoots 8 over = 44 = 2.4 cut => Down to 14.0, ESR kicks in, Down to 12.

All it has taken is two rounds. He's off 12 now and his good day is now 40 points.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 12:30PM

PARlance wrote: »

I think the current system is pretty good.
Wouldn't go changing it at all.

Assuming a guy off 20 suddenly has the abilility to shoot 8 over on a good day and he does so on his next two rounds.

20.0 HC shoots 8 over = 48 = 3.6 cut
=> 16.4 HC shoots 8 over = 44 = 2.4 cut => Down to 14.0, ESR kicks in, Down to 12.

All it has taken is two rounds. He's off 12 now and his good day is now 40 points.

I think it is too slow and above needed an ESR - I'm giving a straight cut of 8.

That lad should not now have a 44 in him .

PARlance · 20-12-2014 12:45PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think it is too slow and above needed an ESR - I'm giving a straight cut of 8.

That lad should not now have a 44 in him .

I don't think achieving it over an extra round is too slow.
I do think that introducing a harsh 1 shot cut per points over 40 would cause all types of issues....If that high guy having the round of his life (because he ain't a bandit- bandits don't target the Friday open in Corballis) you are only putting extreme pressure on an him to pull up.

If your argument is that we all should be within a HC range of 32-40 then I assume you would "award" full shots for a guy that is returning points in the low 20's?
Which is far more common than the odd freak high 40's score. Would I receive 8 shots if I handed in a card with 24 points?

GreeBo · 20-12-2014 01:37PM

you cant cut someone8 shots for one score, thats ridiculous and would mean that person is uncompetitive for potentially 4 years.

The system is fine, just forget about team events.

Forget about winter scores also, its a completely different game that cant be compared.

I was 8 under last week under winter rules for 12 holes, it means nothing, there were several others in and around the same score.

Russman · 20-12-2014 01:48PM

PARlance wrote: »

I don't think achieving it over an extra round is too slow.
I do think that introducing a harsh 1 shot cut per points over 40 would cause all types of issues....If that high guy having the round of his life (because he ain't a bandit- bandits don't target the Friday open in Corballis) you are only putting extreme pressure on an him to pull up.

If your argument is that we all should be within a HC range of 32-40 then I assume you would "award" full shots for a guy that is returning points in the low 20's?
Which is far more common than the odd freak high 40's score. Would I receive 8 shots if I handed in a card with 24 points?

Exactly, golf isn't a science and doesn't always fit into nice mathematical boxes.
I think a severe system will only encourage "pulling". I've seen it since the ESR came in, a guy asking me after 6 holes how many rounds between exceptional score before the first one is "gone" - he wanted to work out if he could have 40pts and not get an ESR.
CONGU is fine IMO.

Bandit stories

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