Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

bucketybuck · 17-12-2014 02:32PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

A friend always likes to point out the Juve/United games in the 90's. We regularly got a lesson, then from 97 or 98 we started physically dominating top sides, running them into the ground with a high tempo game. Juve are well known to have been involved in doping during this time. Maybe they were getting caught and cycled off, maybe United started playing the same game.

You don't need PED's to explain that though. In the few seasons before 97/98 I felt we were always too intimidated in Europe, too cautious tactically as well as struggling with the foreigner rules. We got lessons from the likes of Juve because we let them do it.

From around 97/98 you just start to see Fergie get more confident in Europe, we had been there a few seasons and were only now starting to believe that we were as good as the big European teams. We stopped being so cautious and were prepared to play our normal high tempo game, and the results followed.

The only PED we were on in the late nineties was self-belief.

17-12-2014 02:38PM

Trond wrote: »

Well given that Carrick was selected as the main central defender (in the centre of the three) and Evans was put on the right which is probably his weakest side of the three.

Shows LVG has more faith in Carrick in the centre ahead of Evans which given their respective experience a centre backs you'd expect Evans to be our "senior" centre back.

LVG had Vlaar as the center player in his 3 in the WC and he was probably the worst on the ball of the 3 at the back anyway. Evans was on the left on Sunday and started his first game back at a reasonable level of fitness. When he's fit he plays this season though it'll be interesting the next game if both Rojo and Jones are fit though with Shaw still out Rojo can cover LB for the moment anyway I guess.

Will I Amnt · 17-12-2014 02:40PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I reckon there is a degree of PED use at every top club, including United. The money involved at this level is too great to think every advantage won't be looked for.

A friend always likes to point out the Juve/United games in the 90's. We regularly got a lesson, then from 97 or 98 we started physically dominating top sides, running them into the ground with a high tempo game. Juve are well known to have been involved in doping during this time. Maybe they were getting caught and cycled off, maybe United started playing the same game.

Now, what i believe each club may be involved in might not be technically illegal - they may be using new drugs or methods not banned - I would say that every top club is walking a very thin line.

I think we would have heard about it by now; Keane for one wouldn't miss an opportunity like that to sell a few more books.

kryogen · 17-12-2014 02:42PM

bangkok wrote: »

how do you make that out he was lightning fast at Chelsea?

It was tested and thrown up on some panel, probably sky, not too long ago. Last season or the one before Id say

bangkok · 17-12-2014 02:43PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't need PED's to explain that though. In the few seasons before 97/98 I felt we were always too intimidated in Europe, too cautious tactically as well as struggling with the foreigner rules. We got lessons from the likes of Juve because we let them do it.

From around 97/98 you just start to see Fergie get more confident in Europe, we had been there a few seasons and were only now starting to believe that we were as good as the big European teams. We stopped being so cautious and were prepared to play our normal high tempo game, and the results followed.

The only PED we were on in the late nineties was self-belief.

wouldn't say that now, Italian football had the strongest league in Europe, the likes of AC Milan, Juventus, Samdoria all very strong, then the money dried up and players left Italy and now its a long way off any team in Italy winning a European cup.

added in the fact that most Italian teams were using PED as well

Maximus Alexander · 17-12-2014 02:52PM

It wouldn't be particularly unusual for an athlete to be at their fastest at 29 / 30. I don't understand why this is a discussion.

Trond · 17-12-2014 02:55PM

Liam O wrote: »

LVG had Vlaar as the center player in his 3 in the WC and he was probably the worst on the ball of the 3 at the back anyway. Evans was on the left on Sunday and started his first game back at a reasonable level of fitness. When he's fit he plays this season though it'll be interesting the next game if both Rojo and Jones are fit though with Shaw still out Rojo can cover LB for the moment anyway I guess.

Yea I suppose we'll see. We actually have a shed load of options when they're all fit. Its actually very difficult to predict what his first choice back four might be.

The way I see it is he'll either sacrifice one of Smalling, Jones or Evans and buy another experienced centre back ala Godin or he'll leave it and see how good they are with an actual functioning midfield onfront of them.

I think having Blind and Carrick fit and available will provide much protection than they've been use to. Then there's the Strootman transfer as well.

Interesting times ahead.....

Billy86 · 17-12-2014 03:01PM

GavRedKing wrote: »

Hopefully, although it wouldnt explain why all the top clubs just dont employ such easy to disguise tactics or else they do and the PEDs being used arent good enough which harks back to a poor medicial department.

Barcelona's team of unathletic, injury prone midgets developed strangely superhuman stamina (over periods of 60+ games with a tiny core squad) a number of years back while getting over most of their injury woes, only for it all to begin slipping apart right around the time that several Spanish doctors were implicated in the Lance Armstrong scandal...

Just saying, you know.

Lukker- wrote: »

Plenty of rumours about Bayern doping as far back as LVG. The likes of Robben, who is faster in his 30's now than he ever was at Chelsea at 23.

It's all unknown at this point, until football actually acknowledges the issue any talk is just pure speculation.

That's going to be difficult when you've got situations like Spanish judges ordering all blood samples related to athletes other than cyclists found at said doctors' premises to be destroyed without testing, and when some of these doctors (Fuentes, I believe) claim to have received death threats about if they ever exposed anything.

Again, just saying.

UnitedIrishman · 17-12-2014 03:25PM

Football would absolutely break in half if anything about that Barcelona team ever came out. They pretty much dominated football and were the apple of Michel Platini's eye. Not unlikely to think that they'd ensure nothing was ever brought to light.

Allegedly.

bangkok · 17-12-2014 03:38PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Football would absolutely break in half if anything about that Barcelona team ever came out. They pretty much dominated football and were the apple of Michel Platini's eye. Not unlikely to think that they'd ensure nothing was ever brought to light.

Allegedly.

I will never forget this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PENQDQ52SOY

I don't like Chelsea but couldn't believe how Barcelona got away with this. So blatant, they clearly had the ref paid off.

Winston Payne · 17-12-2014 03:39PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I think we would have heard about it by now; Keane for one wouldn't miss an opportunity like that to sell a few more books.

And ruin the only thing he has left? He'd be pushing the nuke on his own playing days there too.

Billy86 · 17-12-2014 04:24PM

Not United related, but just with all the PEDs/cover up talk... SSN ticker is showing Michel Garcia has just resigned from the FIFA ethics committee. I wonder what dirt they dug up on him, or what threats were made because it's 100% definitely one or the other.

IrishIrish · 17-12-2014 04:29PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Not United related, but just with all the PEDs/cover up talk... SSN ticker is showing Michel Garcia has just resigned from the FIFA ethics committee. I wonder what dirt they dug up on him, or what threats were made because it's 100% definitely one or the other.

It really isn't. They rejected his appeal yesterday so it's hardly a surprise he would resign.

If anything 'its 100% definite' he has dirt on them.

Rayne Wooney · 17-12-2014 05:17PM

Lukker- wrote: »

Chelsea's lack of injuries has very little to do with luck. IMO there is something very wrong at United that can't be blamed on bad luck, more likely a poor medical department mixed with bad management of injuries and possibly something to do with training methods.

Your not the only club mind, Arsenal have been shocking for a while. You could perhaps say one season they were unlucky, but 5 or 6 concurrent seasons? You have to start looking at conditions. Chelsea haven't had a major injury crisis in the last 3 seasons and I don't thin that's down to luck,

I just find it hard to believe that a multi billion dollar business that relies on the fitness of it's employees would neglect or not be up to date with current methods

Trond · 17-12-2014 05:29PM

Billy86 · 17-12-2014 07:00PM

IrishIrish wrote: »

It really isn't. They rejected his appeal yesterday so it's hardly a surprise he would resign.

If anything 'its 100% definite' he has dirt on them.

I hadn't actually seen that yesterday, which would explain his resigning (I thought he had done so while it was still awaiting a decision). But that's my point - he definitely does have tonnes of dirt on them, hopefully he is able to take this to a higher court of some description because FIFA are more openly corrupt than some despot dictatorships at this point. I wouldn't hold my breath though, since they are also more powerful (politically and financially) than most actual countries which is a little scary, to be honest. Hate to say it, but I think I might actually be happy if a bomb went off at one of their high council type meetings and killed the lot of them (just the guys at the top, that is).

Anyway, that's my rant for the night. :pac:

MagicMarker · 17-12-2014 07:06PM

Air Crash Investigations on National Geographic channel now is based on the Munich Disaster.

DrPhilG · 17-12-2014 07:06PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I think I might actually be happy if a bomb went off at one of their high council type meetings and killed the lot of them (just the guys at the top, that is).

You'd better hope that doesn't happen now, guess who'd be the top suspect...

Billy86 · 17-12-2014 07:21PM

DrPhilG wrote: »

You'd better hope that doesn't happen now, guess who'd be the top suspect...

I'll just rob a few banks, pay some visits to the bottom 100 or so countries in FIFA, exchange brown envelopes for votes, get elected FIFA president, and openly make jokes about it all a few weeks later. Sorted.

The_Kew_Tour · 17-12-2014 09:09PM

From West Germany in 1954 to current Barca side drugs and football have been linked.

Read some great articles and stories but most are afraid to mention names for obvious reasons.

glued · 17-12-2014 09:25PM

Lukker- wrote: »

Chelsea's lack of injuries has very little to do with luck. IMO there is something very wrong at United that can't be blamed on bad luck, more likely a poor medical department mixed with bad management of injuries and possibly something to do with training methods.

Your not the only club mind, Arsenal have been shocking for a while. You could perhaps say one season they were unlucky, but 5 or 6 concurrent seasons? You have to start looking at conditions. Chelsea haven't had a major injury crisis in the last 3 seasons and I don't thin that's down to luck,

What a load of nonsense. Do you realise the variables that are play?

Simplicity leads people to draw the daftest of explanations. Over the past three seasons United have had three different managers and three different coaches. Chelsea have had the same fitness coach for a number of years. Consistency.

If the training methods were as bad and the training staff were as negligent as you suggest then wouldn't there be a lot more injuries? You do realise there is a very random nature to some injuries? Surely if what you're suggesting is true then there would be consistency to the nature of the injury? ie MCL/ACL etc. If van Gaal was running the players to hard then you would imagine there would be more hamstring injuries. If the training pitch was crap you would think there would be more ankle/foot injuries.

sReq | uTeK · 17-12-2014 09:51PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I'd love to see Mata playing number 10 behind Rooney and ahead of a four man midfield. He is a fantastic player, but he just isn't suited to these narrow formations that LVG has been trying to make work.

Imo, this front six:
Val/Young - Herrera - Carrick - Di Maria
Mata
Rooney

...would score a lot more goals and be more solid defensively than the formations with more strikers that LVG has been using.

how do you figure we would score more goals? What's it based on, your finger in the air ?

Trond · 17-12-2014 09:52PM

Di Maria won Argentinian player of year. 1st time in 8 years Messi didnt win it!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/angel-di-maria-crowned-argentina-4829799

Headshot · 17-12-2014 09:55PM

Trond wrote: »

Di Maria won Argentinian player of year. 1st time in 8 years Messi didnt win it!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/angel-di-maria-crowned-argentina-4829799

Rightfully so

He was immense, if was fit for the WC Final , Argentina would of won it

TheDoc · 17-12-2014 10:25PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

From West Germany in 1954 to current Barca side drugs and football have been linked.

Read some great articles and stories but most are afraid to mention names for obvious reasons.

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Pro. F · 17-12-2014 10:28PM

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

how do you figure we would score more goals? What's it based on, your finger in the air ?

Oh look, it's my stalker. I already explained my reasoning in a subsequent post.

The_Kew_Tour · 17-12-2014 10:45PM

TheDoc wrote: »

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Fuentes was a name on many peoples lips for some time.

The first time I got interested in doping in football was from few guys I worked with from Spain about 8 years back now

Cycling was the hot topic then.

Lance Armstrong was right about one thing , cycling is far from the dirtiest sport out there.

For now we can only speculate, but you can also notice tell tale signs even from players who retire and either A. Get old looking quickly B. Get bloated once they retire.

Of course its not always the case but you get the signs.

Sadly, I think the truth is bit away yet.

I'm great admirer of Paul Kimmage and his work. Love see him tackle football and I know he knows names and teams involved.

At present Rugby and doping in that is coming to main topic. Some don't like it, but the truth is coming around slowly. I mean there is one Irish rugby player who has all the hallmarks of steroid abuser.

Its not as hard to find as some think.

Getting the real proof is the thing.

Unless somebody really speaks out football and doping is long way from being clean, but you never know.

sReq | uTeK · 17-12-2014 10:46PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh look, it's my stalker. I already explained my reasoning in a subsequent post.

Your stalker who posts once a week if at all. Feel free to check the last time I've quoted you. Id wager its a month + serious stalker material, but yea I will call you out the tripe you continually post just for ****s n giggles.

Nalz · 17-12-2014 10:58PM

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Your stalker who posts once a week if at all. Feel free to check the last time I've quoted you. Id wager its a month + serious stalker material, but yea I will call you out the tripe you continually post just for ****s n giggles.

Hi!!

Billy86 · 17-12-2014 11:01PM

TheDoc wrote: »

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Wasn't that Jorge Fuentes? I'm quite sure that a medical facility of his got raided in relation to the cycling scandal and (going completely off memory here) they found about 200 total blood bags for EPO transfusions and the like, only about 60 of which were related to cyclists. The judge in the case (I am assuming same one) ordered not only that the 140-odd non cycling ones not be tested but also ordered they be destroyed before any attempts to even identify whose blood they were could be made - it's amazing how no higher bodies stepped in, to be honest. Considering how badly Spain were hit by the GFC a few years back, and their international successes (as well as Barca) which would have likely proved a huge boost to national morale as well as helping the economy, the Tinfoilhatist in me wouldn't be surprised if this went very high up, beyond sporting bodies.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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