Golf Digest Top 100 Courses... again

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 12:26AM #1

The Golf Digest Ireland Rankings are out. A few surprises... but where would the fun go if there weren't any. They're up on my blog, alongside the rankings for the past five years - for comparison purposes. Some 'interesting' trends.

Golf Digest Ireland reviewers - what are your thoughts on the process and how your contributions were received?

John Divney · 17-12-2014 12:52AM

Lahinch above Waterville, I agree.

Old head moving up four spots? Nah

Macreddin scrapes top 100 lol.

TrapperChamonix · 17-12-2014 09:28AM

I find the big movers to be interesting. Should we assume that there has been significant course improvement in Dooks & Old Head in the last 4years to warrant an increase of 9 and 10 places respectively? What has happened to Dundalk to see it in free fall (I know they had problems with the Greens last year but this year they are back to their normal quality). Portstewart has gone back 3 places in the last 2 years and yet during this time they made significant improvements to the course under the supervision of no less than the R&A (in prep for the British Amateur).
Ted, I'm confused

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 10:02AM

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

I find the big movers to be interesting. Should we assume that there has been significant course improvement in Dooks & Old Head in the last 4years to warrant an increase of 9 and 10 places respectively? What has happened to Dundalk to see it in free fall (I know they had problems with the Greens last year but this year they are back to their normal quality). Portstewart has gone back 3 places in the last 2 years and yet during this time they made significant improvements to the course under the supervision of no less than the R&A (in prep for the British Amateur).
Ted, I'm confused

Old Head has added a new hole, putting the par three 13th on the cliffs. It opened this year. Otherwise the same dramatic course. Dooks had its 125th anniversary - a friend is a member who tells me the course is in as good a shape as it has ever been... the only changes have been to the line of trees between 16 and 17, which have been removed.

Dundalk is a strong parkland, but I've never really understood why it's Top 100 material. As for Portstewart... well, I guess all you can do is look at who has overtaken it. Funnily enough, I expected to see Carne slip a bit because of their greens this year.

Rikand · 17-12-2014 10:06AM

Glad to see Athlone holding its top 100 spot

Rikand · 17-12-2014 10:30AM

Also very glad to see New Forest break in for the first time. Gorgeous course with some very memorable holes on it. The walled garden par 3 is pretty cool. A couple of holes on it I dont like, the 12th for example I think is a very unfair hole, but overall a lovely course

shabalala · 17-12-2014 10:34AM

These rankings, apart from maybe the top 10 are completely driven by who spends money advertising with Golf Digest Ireland. Until they are done independently there will always be an amount of LOL

Mantis Toboggan · 17-12-2014 10:39AM

No course from the county of tipperary is a little harsh I think.

benny79 · 17-12-2014 10:50AM

Jesus how is the Smurfit course on there! thats one of the worse courses I've played and in very poor condition each time I played it and ahead of Bunclody and the likes! shocking stuff..

Miley Byrne · 17-12-2014 11:00AM

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Old Head has added a new hole, putting the par three 13th on the cliffs. It opened this year. Otherwise the same dramatic course. Dooks had its 125th anniversary - a friend is a member who tells me the course is in as good a shape as it has ever been... the only changes have been to the line of trees between 16 and 17, which have been removed.

Dundalk is a strong parkland, but I've never really understood why it's Top 100 material. As for Portstewart... well, I guess all you can do is look at who has overtaken it. Funnily enough, I expected to see Carne slip a bit because of their greens this year.

Didn't know they removed them trees, thats no harm anyway because them two holes looked like they belonged to a different course. I love links golf but Dooks is not a favourite of mine for some reason

shabalala · 17-12-2014 11:13AM

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

I find the big movers to be interesting. Should we assume that there has been significant course improvement in Dooks & Old Head in the last 4years to warrant an increase of 9 and 10 places respectively? What has happened to Dundalk to see it in free fall (I know they had problems with the Greens last year but this year they are back to their normal quality). Portstewart has gone back 3 places in the last 2 years and yet during this time they made significant improvements to the course under the supervision of no less than the R&A (in prep for the British Amateur).
Ted, I'm confused

Subscribe to Golf Digest Ireland and you will see why, Dooks (whose manager is on the voting panel) advertise a lot, as do Old head... these rankings annoy me for that reason, they are all about advertising spend, not at all about the golf course.

LucidLife · 17-12-2014 11:19AM

How many spent more than ballybunion? Where it place? Old and New make it?

Rikand · 17-12-2014 12:01PM

LucidLife wrote: »

How many spent more than ballybunion? Where it place? Old and New make it?

Ballybunion (old) is ranked number 6
Ballybunion (Cashen) is rising as quickly up the rankings as is probably allowable (93,81,79,66,56)

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 12:01PM

LucidLife wrote: »

How many spent more than ballybunion? Where it place? Old and New make it?

Are you asking a question or making a point?

slave1 · 17-12-2014 12:42PM

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

...
Golf Digest Ireland reviewers - what are your thoughts on the process and how your contributions were received?....

Have to say, pretty much laid out as I expected it (the reviews I carried out and comments made re comparison to other courses).
As I posted over on another thread I believe an injustice has been put right with New Forest and Macreddin taking much deserved places.
Perhaps the only thing I can see is Carlow is too high IMHO, would like to see the 'nearly there' list too.

kevgaa · 17-12-2014 12:49PM

shabalala wrote: »

Subscribe to Golf Digest Ireland and you will see why, Dooks (whose manager is on the voting panel) advertise a lot, as do Old head... these rankings annoy me for that reason, they are all about advertising spend, not at all about the golf course.

The pro from St Margaret's is heavily involved in the main voting panel and I don't see his course on the list!!!

shabalala · 17-12-2014 12:54PM

kevgaa wrote: »

The pro from St Margaret's is heavily involved in the main voting panel and I don't see his course on the list!!!

They don't spend enough advertising money clearly!

Dr_Colossus · 17-12-2014 01:21PM

slave1 wrote: »

As I posted over on another thread I believe an injustice has been put right with New Forest and Macreddin taking much deserved places.
Perhaps the only thing I can see is Carlow is too high IMHO, would like to see the 'nearly there' list too.

+1 regarding Macreddin although it could be higher (have yet to play New Forest).
Carlow is about fair I reckon in the rankings, I think it's a class layout and course in general with tough and demanding greens and penal rough. I'd dock it points perhaps for reducing it's Junior Scratch Cup to only 18 holes but that isn't a factor.
The likes of Royal Dublin and Connemara for me are ranked too highly but there's always been a bias in favor of links courses in these rankings.

slave1 · 17-12-2014 01:54PM

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

...but there's always been a bias in favor of links courses in these rankings...

100%, stands out by a mile, shame for me in Athlone, talk about far from any coastal links course:(

Ally McIntosh · 17-12-2014 02:02PM

Seeing as this comes up every year, I may as well kill the rumour that the rankings have anything at all to do with advertising spend. It is a completely independent process voted on by a completely independent panel.

I don't see the ratings having a links bias. I see a lot of links courses near the top because they are the best courses, relative to others in the country.

HighLine · 17-12-2014 02:11PM

The first 2 that strike me as needing to be higher on the list are Druids Glen and Macreddin.

LucidLife · 17-12-2014 02:25PM

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Are you asking a question or making a point?

Was asking genuinely. I live abroad so caught my eye just. I knew the Old would be up there but had no idea about the Cashen.

I am glad the Cashen is rising. It really does deserve to be closer to the Old. It gets under rated because of proximity to the Old! (I feel)

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 02:38PM

LucidLife wrote: »

I am glad the Cashen is rising. It really does deserve to be closer to the Old. It gets under rated because of proximity to the Old! (I feel)

I agree it deserves its rise up the ranking. It will never get that close to the Old as its not traditional links golf. On the Cashen you have to fire directly at greens as the bump-and-run option is often taken out of the equation by the heavy dips below greens.

A case in point - approach to the par five 15th:

LucidLife · 17-12-2014 02:50PM

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

I agree it deserves its rise up the ranking. It will never get that close to the Old as its not traditional links golf. On the Cashen you have to fire directly at greens as the bump-and-run option is often taken out of the equation by the heavy dips below greens.

A case in point - approach to 15

Great hole but a lot really are as you know. Thanks for the taste of home

(Cant paste links as im new)

slave1 · 17-12-2014 03:05PM

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

I don't see the ratings having a links bias. I see a lot of links courses near the top because they are the best courses, relative to others in the country.

Ah it's still an opinion at the end of the day Ally, 17 of the top 20 are links and the 'bottom' 50 dominated by parkland.
For the right or wrong reason this is bias to links IMHO.
There is a divide between links and parkland, they are both golf courses but in many respects with different heritage, approach and design (whether architect or 'God') they are quite different requiring a different approach by the golfer as their challenges are just so fundamentally distinct.
I love both as it happens, but don't feel they are readily inter comparable.

shabalala · 17-12-2014 03:25PM

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

Seeing as this comes up every year, I may as well kill the rumour that the rankings have anything at all to do with advertising spend. It is a completely independent process voted on by a completely independent panel.

I don't see the ratings having a links bias. I see a lot of links courses near the top because they are the best courses, relative to others in the country.

How can it be an independent panel if some of the panellists are working for/in some of the clubs listed? That is completely the opposite of independent.

As a GDI reader and someone that has worked in advertising it looks clear cut to me, of course this is just my opinion.

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 03:38PM

shabalala wrote: »

How can it be an independent panel if some of the panellists are working for/in some of the clubs listed? That is completely the opposite of independent.

As a GDI reader and someone that has worked in advertising it looks clear cut to me, of course this is just my opinion.

Yes, it's a challenge alright. Trouble is, to get people who have the necessary experience to be on a panel, you get people who are deeply involved in the sport. A couple of years back you had someone from Portmarnock on the panel, and that was the year Portmarnock pipped RCD to top spot. It is, unfortunately, somewhat unavoidable.

shabalala · 17-12-2014 03:43PM

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Yes, it's a challenge alright. Trouble is, to get people who have the necessary experience to be on a panel, you get people who are deeply involved in the sport. A couple of years back you had someone from Portmarnock on the panel, and that was the year Portmarnock pipped RCD to top spot. It is, unfortunately, somewhat unavoidable.

Then if the sniff of it being unfair is unavoidable, why do it at all?

Why have reviewers out playing the courses when at the end of the day its a panel of biased golf club employees etc making the final decisions?

Kevinmarkham · 17-12-2014 03:57PM

shabalala wrote: »

at the end of the day its a panel of biased golf club employees etc making the final decisions

I think that's a sweeping generalisation. There have to be people closely involved in golf on the panel because they know the courses and the very nature of how golf courses work... and anyone involved in golf has their opinions... some biased and some less so... I have my opinions, just as you do - give me your top 5 courses and I guarantee I'll find fault with your list... just as you'd find fault with mine.

The reviewers - several who participate on Boards - get their say and their contributions are weighted alongside those of everybody else.

At the end of the day it's a general ranking, there to be debated... not the 10 commandments.

slave1 · 17-12-2014 04:12PM

shabalala wrote: »

Why have reviewers out playing the courses when at the end of the day its a panel of biased golf club employees etc making the final decisions?

Ah, I think that comment is a bit harsh mate and not a reflection of the process.

Ally McIntosh · 17-12-2014 05:44PM

shabalala wrote: »

How can it be an independent panel if some of the panellists are working for/in some of the clubs listed? That is completely the opposite of independent.

As a GDI reader and someone that has worked in advertising it looks clear cut to me, of course this is just my opinion.

This is a different complaint.

Your original question was about magazine advertising affecting the rankings, not conflicts of interest that individual panel members may have.

Regards these conflicts of interest, those on the panel who are involved with a particular club in one way or another invariably try to give an honest appraisal and then let the other panel members debate the pro's and con's.

Best Regards,
Ally

Golf Digest Top 100 Courses... again

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