A Slow Journey to Faster Times

yaboya1 · 06-12-2014 11:45PM

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I thought I saw you in the club after the race but we've never met so how would I know?!

You should have introduced yourself so.
Still no sign of the ninja chocolate biscuit cake. That's two years in a row now apparently......:pac:

RacoonQueen · 06-12-2014 11:46PM

yaboya1 wrote: »

You should have introduced yourself so.
Still no sign of the ninja chocolate biscuit cake. That's two years in a row now apparently......:pac:

There was a load of it in the bar!

I did actually see you going down the stairs but was otherwise engaged.

Well done today, nice running!

laura_ac3 · 07-12-2014 09:40AM

How are the recent niggles yaboya? Hope there were no ill effects from the race.

yaboya1 · 07-12-2014 12:03PM

laura_ac3 wrote: »

How are the recent niggles yaboya? Hope there were no ill effects from the race.

I'm actually fine now laura. Taking the week off between Monday & Saturday was probably the best decision I made in a while. In the end it was a lack of fitness rather than any injury niggles that saw me run a time slower than I'm capable of. I'm going to take a few more days off (just to be safe) and ease back into training gradually after that, as I've no more races coming up until the Raheny 5.

laura_ac3 · 07-12-2014 10:43PM

yaboya1 wrote: »

I'm actually fine now laura. Taking the week off between Monday & Saturday was probably the best decision I made in a while. In the end it was a lack of fitness rather than any injury niggles that saw me run a time slower than I'm capable of. I'm going to take a few more days off (just to be safe) and ease back into training gradually after that, as I've no more races coming up until the Raheny 5.

Good to hear it didn't flare up. Sounds like the sensible approach worked so! Looking forward to the raheny 5 myself.

yaboya1 · 09-12-2014 12:39AM

No training to report since the Jingle Bells. It's doubtful I'll do anything before Thursday at the earliest. Feel like the blowout at the weekend did me a lot of good though. No niggles to report either, so looking forward to getting started again soon.

Forgot to add Saturday's splits:

Mile 1 - 5:59
Mile 2 - 6:07
Mile 3 - 5:48
0.11 - 0:33

In other news, after weeks of emails and complaining I eventually received my replacement HRM (f.o.c. as the original one was still under warranty) from Garmin. I think I'll stick with the Polar for the HADD stuff though, but it's nice to have a spare (even though it's probably unreliable like the last one

).

yaboya1 · 11-12-2014 02:27PM

Thursday 11th December - 45 minutes Easy
5m @ 9:00min/mile average (134bpm avg)

Had shoved the running gear in the car last night, and only realised when I went to get it before I went out today that I'd packed my Timex €10 Lidl special stopwatch instead of my Garmin. To combat this, I ran an out and back route that I'm pretty confident measures 2.5 miles to gauge my distance. I was trying to average 132bpm for the entire run, but the wind made it very difficult and there were times I'd have had to slow to walking pace to stay on target. Happy enough with how close I got in the circumstances. No niggles and no mile splits either due to the absent Garmin.

yaboya1 · 12-12-2014 01:38PM

Friday 12th December - 30 minutes Easy
3m @ 9:10min/mile average (135bpm avg)

I'm finding it really hard to stay 50bpm below my HR Max with that breeze blowing out there. It seems making any effort jogging into it sees the HR shoot up. Similar to yesterday though, I managed to stay pretty close to the target. I threw 6 x 100m strides in after the miles and straight into a strong headwind. They hurt!

Mile 1 - 8:46
Mile 2 - 9:21
Mile 3 - 9:24

If I'm feeling good in the morning, I might give a parkrun a bash.

ThebitterLemon · 12-12-2014 06:23PM

Fair play to you P, I wouldn't have the patience for that HR training, it would drive me demented but it definitely stood to you on the last cycle.

TbL

yaboya1 · 13-12-2014 01:57PM

Saturday 13th December - St Anne's parkrun
5k @ 3:45min/km average (18:44)

An almost identical performance to last weekend. The extra three seconds per kilometre can probably be put down to the icy conditions underfoot, as you had to watch your step very carefully in places which made it impossible to go flat out. Even so, the first three guys home finished in the mid 16's which is hugely impressive. I managed to scrape into the top ten despite there only being 124 runners, which shows the standard on show at this particular timed run today. I guess that's about where I am at the moment. Some solid training is badly needed over the next few weeks if I'm to start the year off well in Raheny. Felt very one paced this morning. I had a guy about 20m ahead of me in the 900m finishing straight. Normally I'd fancy myself to pick him up, but I just couldn't catch him (the split suggests I sped up considerably, but I'm not so sure) Feels like the lack of recent training has definitely cost me a gear or two. The 17:15 I ran on a tougher course in Marlay four months ago seems a world away.

Splits:

Km 1 - 3:44
Km 2 - 3:53
Km 3 - 3:56
Km 4 - 3:55
Km 5 - 3:16

yaboya1 · 14-12-2014 11:25AM

Sunday 14th December - 60 minutes Easy
6.84m @ 8:55min/mile average (135bpm avg)

Lovely morning for a run out there. Nice and cool, but not icy and dangerous like yesterday. Delighted I set the alarm now

Splits (forgot to change the watch back to Miles!):

Km 1 - 5:38
Km 2 - 5:11
Km 3 - 5:25
Km 4 - 5:36
Km 5 - 5:30
Km 6 - 5:24
Km 7 - 5:31
Km 8 - 5:40
Km 9 - 5:41
Km 10 - 5:35
Km 11 - 5:47

yaboya1 · 16-12-2014 07:18PM

Tuesday 16th December - HADD 2400m Test

A cold, dull, wet and horrible day. Perfect for a run

.
I've decided there's no point in comparing any of my HADD training from the summer against anything I'm doing at the moment, as I'm clearly miles off that level of fitness judging on my two most recent 5k races. So I'm going to gradually build up the weekly mileage and HR in the steady sessions starting from scratch. Considering I now have a reliable HR Max, the only thing left to do before I got under way was complete a 2400m test. This would give me a fair guide as to where I'm currently at. It's recommended to do this when you're rested and fresh (as if for a race). Since I'd been forced to take yesterday off, I thought today would a good opportunity to get it done. I hit the Lucan track for the session.

Results are below:

3.16m warm up (8:13min/mile @ 131bpm avg)

2400m @ 130 bpm (Actual 131 bpm) - 9:15 min/mile average
2400m @ 140 bpm (Actual 138 bpm) - 7:59 min/mile average
2400m @ 150 bpm (Actual 148 bpm) - 6:57 min/mile average
2400m @ 160 bpm (Actual 159 bpm) - 6:15 min/mile average
2400m @ 170 bpm (Actual 169 bpm) - 5:33 min/mile average

1.97m cool down (9:06 min/mile @ 137bpm avg)

The middle three intervals were the easiest to hold the HR/pace. I really struggled to stay below 130bpm for the first 2400m (which shows the difference in fitness since the summer as I was regularly running sub 9 minute miles at a HR around/below 120bpm) and was surprised I managed to keep it so close to target. Jogging six laps around a track at that HR/pace is extremely boring. I really don't know how anyone manages it for that 24 hour race in Belfast. It doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. The rest are a bit less monotonous as you're working harder and moving quicker, so you don't notice it as much. The final 2400m felt like a 5k race. Looking back at the split now, I can see why! Delighted to have got this out of the way as it now gives me a marker to look back on for the next few months. I'm going to introduce steady sessions again next week starting at 145bpm and move on from there. Looking forward to the challenge of getting back to where I was a few months ago, and then improving on that.

menoscemo · 16-12-2014 09:31PM

Is that 5:33 min/mile pace for the last 2400m? That's almost half a 5k at the end of an already decent session...you can't be that far off your 5k PB pace surely? Maybe your recent result was a bit of an anomoly??

pconn062 · 17-12-2014 12:51AM

menoscemo wrote: »

Is that 5:33 min/mile pace for the last 2400m? That's almost half a 5k at the end of an already decent session...you can't be that far off your 5k PB pace surely? Maybe your recent result was a bit of an anomoly??

Would have to agree with Meno here, must be an anomaly there somewhere surely? How can you only be running 6 minute mile pace in a 5k but then hold 5.33 pace for a mile and a half in this test? Maybe you just had two bad races and your fitness is better than you think?

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 01:14AM

menoscemo wrote: »

Is that 5:33 min/mile pace for the last 2400m? That's almost half a 5k at the end of an already decent session...you can't be that far off your 5k PB pace surely? Maybe your recent result was a bit of an anomoly??

Yes, a full 2400m at 5:33 pace having already completed everything that's listed above it. I don't think my last two 5k results are anomalies. I've explained my reasoning below.

pconn062 wrote: »

Would have to agree with Meno here, must be an anomaly there somewhere surely? How can you only be running 6 minute mile pace in a 5k but then hold 5.33 pace for a mile and a half in this test? Maybe you just had two bad races and your fitness is better than you think?

I've had two bad results in races and reading these two comments and having had a few hours to think about it I'm come to the following conclusions:

I haven't actually lost much fitness. I went too easy on myself in both races (I'll forgive myself for the DCM considering the circumstances around that and conditions on the day) and the splits prove this (especially the middle mile in the Jingle Bells). Bar my last three races, I've gone into any other race expecting a PB and have made myself go quick enough to get it. I ran at the pace I needed to be going to hit my target time no matter how much it hurt, and was able to keep it going until the finish in most cases. The conditions in Marlay when I ran 17:15 were far worse than the Jingle Bells on a much tougher course. I had already conceded going into my last three races that I wouldn't run a PB for whatever reason and didn't make myself suffer enough during the race because of this. Maybe if I'd tried to hit my PB pace in my last two 5k races instead of making excuses before & after (lack of training, injury niggle, ice on the course), I might have run a lot quicker. Today I was totally focused on keeping the HR constant in each interval. I didn't look at the splits/pace until after the session and was surprised to see how quick I'd gone. I wanted to know where I was at, so I never let the effort drop in the last interval no matter how much it hurt. The Raheny 5 is my next chance to redeem myself.

jebuz · 17-12-2014 07:55AM

yaboya1 wrote: »

I had already conceded going into my last three races that I wouldn't run a PB for whatever reason and didn't make myself suffer enough during the race because of this. Maybe if I'd tried to hit my PB pace in my last two 5k races instead of making excuses before & after (lack of training, injury niggle, ice on the course), I might have run a lot quicker

I can relate to this. I went into Waterford with a similar attitude (excuses were lost fitness since DCM, no sessions, not a flat course) and generally your performance reflects your mentality. Looking back I think I actually could have PB'd or at least come a lot closer if I'd hurt myself a little more but I'd already resigned myself to the fact that I wasn't racing all out. This I suppose is all part of growing as a runner. It's far from all just physiological, the head has to be in the game as much as the body.

Anyway, the result of your test are very positive and a good time to do it coming into January. Plenty of work to be done and many PB's to come, looking forward to seeing what you can do next year. Get into a club

ger664 · 17-12-2014 10:44AM

Those figures in particular the lower end ones seem out of sync. If you compare them with your June test they seem to have gone south for some strange reason. I would expect the pace to be quicker from 130-150 range. Below is a comparison against your June results. I use Beats per KM and it should be relatively flat/even until you hit the LT point (or whatever term you want to use here) where it should drop off. Test yesterday has it dropping off immediately from the start ??

HR|BPKm June|BPKm Dec
120 | 690 | N/A
130 | 673 | 753
140 | 672 | 684
150 | 639 | 632
160 | 623 | 617
170 | N/A | 573

I am aware there was a change in HRM used in the two tests but I would expect the 130 reading from yesterday to have been lower and around 685-695 very similar/close to the 140 reading.
Two questions
Did you take any rest between readings ?
Was there a gap between the warm up and the first reading ?

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 10:50AM

jebuz wrote: »

I can relate to this. I went into Waterford with a similar attitude (excuses were lost fitness since DCM, no sessions, not a flat course) and generally your performance reflects your mentality. Looking back I think I actually could have PB'd or at least come a lot closer if I'd hurt myself a little more but I'd already resigned myself to the fact that I wasn't racing all out. This I suppose is all part of growing as a runner. It's far from all just physiological, the head has to be in the game as much as the body.

Anyway, the result of your test are very positive and a good time to do it coming into January. Plenty of work to be done and many PB's to come, looking forward to seeing what you can do next year. Get into a club

Yes, I totally agree.
Earlier in the year I knew I was training well and was expecting to hit target paces in races, so didn't back off when the going got tough as I knew I was fit enough to hold it. In my last couple of races I've had doubts beforehand for whatever reason and this meant I backed off prematurely thinking I wasn't capable of holding said pace.

menoscemo · 17-12-2014 10:51AM

ger664 wrote: »

Those figures in particular the lower end ones seem out of sync. If you compare them with your June test they seem to have gone south for some strange reason. I would expect the pace to be quicker from 130-150 range. Below is a comparison against your June results. I use Beats per KM and it should be relatively flat/even until you hit the LT point (or whatever term you want to use here) where it should drop off. Test yesterday has it dropping off immediately from the start ??

HR|BPKm June|BPKm Dec
120 | 690 | N/A
130 | 673 | 753
140 | 672 | 684
150 | 639 | 632
160 | 623 | 617
170 | N/A | 573

I am aware there was a change in HRM used in the two tests but I would expect the 130 reading from yesterday to have been lower and around 685-695 very similar/close to the 140 reading.
Two questions
Did you take any rest between readings ?
Was there a gap between the warm up and the first reading ?

Paralysis by analysis surely?

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 10:55AM

ger664 wrote: »

Those figures in particular the lower end ones seem out of sync. If you compare them with your June test they seem to have gone south for some strange reason. I would expect the pace to be quicker from 130-150 range. Below is a comparison against your June results. I use Beats per KM and it should be relatively flat/even until you hit the LT point (or whatever term you want to use here) where it should drop off. Test yesterday has it dropping off immediately from the start ??

HR|BPKm June|BPKm Dec
120 | 690 | N/A
130 | 673 | 753
140 | 672 | 684
150 | 639 | 632
160 | 623 | 617
170 | N/A | 573

I am aware there was a change in HRM used in the two tests but I would expect the 130 reading from yesterday to have been lower and around 685-695 very similar/close to the 140 reading.

Hi Ger,
Thanks for the observations.

ger664 wrote: »

Two questions
Did you take any rest between readings ?

I took 90 second recoveries between each interval.

ger664 wrote: »

Was there a gap between the warm up and the first reading ?

I ran the warm up and then threw in about 5 or 6 strides before I got started. That's probably why the average is 8:13min/mile in comparison to the cool down which is almost a minute per mile slower at a higher HR.
I did wait for the HR to come back down to around 120bpm before I started the first interval, but maybe I shouldn't have done the strides?

Duanington · 17-12-2014 11:23AM

I was only thinking about the mental aspect of racing last night ( trying to distract my brain from the freezing rain hopping off my face), I often read "I'm not in race shape" or "I'm not racing fit" and other such comments on the various logs I follow.
I wonder how often we actually convince ourselves that we aren't in the kind of shape that brings PBs when in truth, most people here would have spent years training and building up to a level that allows them to perform at their best....are we really to believe that we can undo those kind of lifestyle changes ( because lets be honest, for a lot of us on here - it isn't just a few runs a week, it is a genuine lifestyle change) in a matter of weeks?

I saw you on the final stretch in St Anne's, you looked very relaxed and didn't look like you were going into the red at all and yet you ran sub 19 minutes ( which I'm sure would have been a big deal a year ago, right?)

I'm convinced that there is an element of training our minds to run through barriers in what we do - call it effort, pain, whatever but its that thing when you are running the last kilometer in a race, thinking or perhaps accepting you are running as fast as you can and yet if you REALLY REALLY push it and force the issue, surprise, surprise...there's a bit more in the legs....it hurts but it's there.
Each time we breach that barrier - that feeling becomes familiar and a little less daunting to take on.
I wonder how many times we just resign ourselves to the fact that the fitness isn't there when in fact, the real issue is that we're just not mentally prepared to start running those barriers yet.

Anyway, I don't think you're as far away as you think - in fact, I would say you'd run a completely different race now with that session in the bag.

Onwards and upwards!

Netwerk Errer · 17-12-2014 11:46AM

I'm far from an expert and I could be completely wrong but I thought I might throw a few thoughts out on this. Wouldn't you have been a lot stronger aerobically back in June because your training was more focused on aerobic conditioning? One thing I have always noticed in my training is after specific training and racing, my baseline fitness drops. Basically, I go through peaks and valleys.

Specific training and racing releases cortisol and anaerobic by-products that your heart has to clear which degrades the aerobic engine over time. You will have a baseline fitness and peak fitness. Your body will always fall back down to the baseline level of fitness after peaking for a race because you have degraded the aerobic engine by doing anaerobic training and your body can't produce enough cortisol to keep the peak level of performance. The stronger you are aerobically(years of training), the less of a drop to baseline fitness from peak fitness. Your HR will rise because it is a direct function of aerobic fitness.

The drop in cortisol levels is why you often see athletes mentally struggle after peaking for a big race. Personally, I think the HR has risen because you haven't fully got back to aerobic training yet and if you focus on taxing that system for a few weeks, your fitness will improve quickly and your next peak will be even higher.

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 12:06PM

Duanington wrote: »

I wonder how often we actually convince ourselves that we aren't in the kind of shape that brings PBs when in truth, most people here would have spent years training and building up to a level that allows them to perform at their best....are we really to believe that we can undo those kind of lifestyle changes ( because lets be honest, for a lot of us on here - it isn't just a few runs a week, it is a genuine lifestyle change) in a matter of weeks?

I had never had this mentality going into a race until this year's DCM. Now I've done it three times in a row.

Duanington wrote: »

I saw you on the final stretch in St Anne's, you looked very relaxed and didn't look like you were going into the red at all and yet you ran sub 19 minutes

This is true. I also read your comment on your own log about me not breaking a sweat when you saw me passing. On top of that I managed to say hello to you on my way past, so I obviously wasn't putting it all in. Reading these comments and looking back myself now, I'm a bit ashamed to be honest......

Duanington wrote: »

Anyway, I don't think you're as far away as you think - in fact, I would say you'd run a completely different race now with that session in the bag.

I totally agree. I would love to give St Anne's another go this Saturday, but unfortunately I'm in work at 9am

I may have to wait until Raheny.

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 12:08PM

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

I'm far from an expert and I could be completely wrong but I thought I might throw a few thoughts out on this. Wouldn't you have been a lot stronger aerobically back in June because your training was more focused on aerobic conditioning? One thing I have always noticed in my training is after specific training and racing, my baseline fitness drops. Basically, I go through peaks and valleys.

Specific training and racing releases cortisol and anaerobic by-products that your heart has to clear which degrades the aerobic engine over time. You will have a baseline fitness and peak fitness. Your body will always fall back down to the baseline level of fitness after peaking for a race because you have degraded the aerobic engine by doing anaerobic training and your body can't produce enough cortisol to keep the peak level of performance. The stronger you are aerobically(years of training), the less of a drop to baseline fitness from peak fitness. Your HR will rise because it is a direct function of aerobic fitness.

The drop in cortisol levels is why you often see athletes mentally struggle after peaking for a big race. Personally, I think the HR has risen because you haven't fully got back to aerobic training yet and if you focus on taxing that system for a few weeks, your fitness will improve quickly and your next peak will be even higher.

You know way more about running than I do, but I like what you're saying and hope it's true.
Roll on Hamburg.....:)

Netwerk Errer · 17-12-2014 12:18PM

yaboya1 wrote: »

You know way more about running than I do)

Ha! I don't know about that but I said I'd throw a few thoughts out there:)

FBOT01 · 17-12-2014 12:37PM

yaboya1 wrote: »

I had never had this mentality going into a race until this year's DCM. Now I've done it three times in a row.

This is true. I also read your comment on your own log about me not breaking a sweat when you saw me passing. On top of that I managed to say hello to you on my way past, so I obviously wasn't putting it all in. Reading these comments and looking back myself now, I'm a bit ashamed to be honest......

I totally agree. I would love to give St Anne's another go this Saturday, but unfortunately I'm in work at 9am
I may have to wait until Raheny.

I will head up the watch at 8am if you want to bring the head torch....maybe D will toe the line with you and give you a run for your money:pac::pac:

menoscemo · 17-12-2014 12:38PM

Basically NE you are saying that it takes a while to get back into Racing short distances after a marathon, but a few hard efforts bring you on and then your Aerobic fitness from marathon kicks in?
I would agreee with this for sure. I set my 5 and 10k PBs last june after a PB marathon in April. I didn't do a lot of miles in between but was racing pretty much every week (granted a lot of them were club run races and not 100%); while the first few races were poor I then kicked on very quickly, I definitely feel the marathon training was the crucial factor in setting the PBs.

Netwerk Errer · 17-12-2014 01:31PM

menoscemo wrote: »

Basically NE you are saying that it takes a while to get back into Racing short distances after a marathon, but a few hard efforts bring you on and then your Aerobic fitness from marathon kicks in?
I would agreee with this for sure. I set my 5 and 10k PBs last june after a PB marathon in April. I didn't do a lot of miles in between but was racing pretty much every week (granted a lot of them were club run races and not 100%); while the first few races were poor I then kicked on very quickly, I definitely feel the marathon training was the crucial factor in setting the PBs.

As I said, I'm far from an expert but I feel this varies from person to person. Really, in a perfect world, you shouldn't be doing hard efforts after a marathon for a long time if you periodise your training correctly.

After goal marathon race depending on your race distance goals, your training should look like this.

Race day
Recovery phase (5weeks)
Base building (6-as long as you like)
Transition phase(4-6 weeks)
Specific phase (6-18 weeks depending on race distance)

It's important to note that this is my personal interpretation of length of each phase but the in a perfect world, you want to periodise your training with each phase. It takes around 5 weeks to return to baseline fitness(depending on the aerobic fitness of an athlete) after a marathon in which your body goes through exhaustion and recovery. Baseline fitness isn't what your peak fitness was on raceday, It's basically your aerobic fitness level and hovers between exhaustion and peak.

The LT work that you do in the lead up to a race actually degrades your aerobic fitness during that time but is a necessary evil. Some people will run PB's in a month or two after a marathon because their baseline fitness has improved so much in training for the marathon that it's actually higher than their previous peak fitness level. You can go back into hard training after the recovery phase of a marathon but I feel skipping the base phase limits your chance to improve your baseline fitness. Improving your baseline allows the next peak to be higher than the previous.

Yes, doing a hard sessions now would would see yaboya get back into race and PB shape in a couple of weeks but I feel in the long run, It would benefit him to focus on the aerobic side of things and he would peak higher the next time around.

Excuse me on the cortisol side of things on the previous post, i might have got mixed up but I feel the underlying message was correct.

Edit: You're right too Meno. After recovering, if you skipped the base phase and started doing hard efforts, you would be back flying in a few weeks over the short distances.

I wish ecoli was here, he's a hell of a lot better explaining these things than me.:)

Edit: You're right too Meno, If you were to do hard efforts now and skip base training, you would still be back flying over the short distances soon. It takes a w

Netwerk Errer · 17-12-2014 02:59PM

Apologises for hijacking your thread a bit yaboya.

I really should add that it isn't a perfect world and people like to go out and race and have the craic. If you want to race soon after a marathon, I would agree with Meno's summary.

yaboya1 · 17-12-2014 03:03PM

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Apologises for hijacking your thread a bit yaboya.

I really should add that it isn't a perfect world and people like to go out and race and have the craic. If you want to race soon after a marathon, I would agree with Meno's summary.

No apology necessary.
I'm always interested in other opinions and thoughts, which is kind of why I have a log in the first place. Knowledgeable input is never a bad thing. At the end of the day if I want to do something I'll go ahead and do it anyway, but if I'm in two minds it's always good that I can get valuable feedback here.

A Slow Journey to Faster Times

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