Doctors told pregnant woman her baby had died … Two days later they found a heartbeat

Gongoozler · 12-12-2014 12:00PM

conorhal wrote: »

The care of the young, the elderly and the disabled by the state in this country continues to be pretty hit and miss.

Well done on trying to make a link between two completely unrelated things.

A person makes a mistake therefore all services provided by the overseeing body are doomed to fail? Nice logic.

Grayson · 12-12-2014 12:03PM

I read this yesterday and thought it was horrible. Irish hospitals have a horrible track record. however after reading some of the responses here it seems like it might not have been as bad.

http://rs1img.memecdn.com/context_o_857936.jpg

conorhal · 12-12-2014 12:05PM

Gongoozler wrote: »

Well done on trying to make a link between two completely unrelated things.

A person makes a mistake therefore all services provided by the overseeing body are doomed to fail? Nice logic.

Yeah, it was probably just a 'system error or failure', nothing to see here, carry on!

I don't see the services provided by the overseeing body (HSE) covering themselves in glory lately, unless you think that disabled people, pregnant women and vunerable children have all just had a really bad streak of luck lately with our health services.

The reality is that HSE oversight, staffing levels and practice has been shown time and time again to be consistantly poor and that culture comes from the top.
When it comes to healthcare in the country, I would seek a second opinion for an ingrown toenail, then I'd ask for a third opinion.

12-12-2014 12:07PM

The article on the rte website gives a much clearer view of what happened

Wabbit Ears · 12-12-2014 12:38PM

I don't believe this story.

I cant imagine any nurse or doctor lightly announcing a baby dead without having at least the head doctor person having a second look. The fact that there was no record of the first scan at all is a dead (or not dead as it were) giveaway that this is pure fabrication.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 12-12-2014 12:47PM

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I don't believe this story.

I cant imagine any nurse or doctor lightly announcing a baby dead without having at least the head doctor person having a second look. The fact that there was no record of the first scan at all is a dead (or not dead as it were) giveaway that this is pure fabrication.

Have you dealt with the EPU in Portlaoise?? They are notorious. And so many women (4) have had still births while delivering under Portlaoise maternity. Not so long ago, it was revealed they'd hired a doctor to work in a+e who turned out to be not qualified at all.http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/family-settles-action-over-baby-s-death-at-portlaoise-hospital-1.1989520

Wabbit Ears · 12-12-2014 12:50PM

I haven't been to portloise but I still find it hard to believe that a healthcare professional wouldn't double and triple check something of this magnitude.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 12-12-2014 12:51PM

I have been to that hospital and I am not surprised at all

mirrorwall14 · 12-12-2014 12:54PM

This is a really odd story. I've had multiple issues during pregnancy resulting in a lot of scans and feral monitoring. It's by no means unusual to take ages to find the heartbeat, even in late second trimester.

The returning for a further scan before D and C sounds like standard policy. I've had growth issues and had to wait two weeks to be sure that the baby was growing as that's the time interval required (horrific two weeks I will say)

eviltwin · 12-12-2014 12:57PM

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I don't believe this story.

I cant imagine any nurse or doctor lightly announcing a baby dead without having at least the head doctor person having a second look. The fact that there was no record of the first scan at all is a dead (or not dead as it were) giveaway that this is pure fabrication.

Maybe the manner of the disclosure is exaggerated but don't assume our maternity service doesn't make mistakes like this. There was a story on Prime Time about a year or two ago of women who had possibly induced miscarriage of healthy babies because machines in a particular hospital wasn't working properly.

I've had two children in the Irish system and the scanning machines are so old in some cases that its hard to read them properly. I have two scans taken a week apart, one from my hospital and one from a private clinic and the quality of the scan from the private clinic is far superior to the one from the hospital. No wonder mistakes happen when staff are using substandard equipment.

conorhal · 12-12-2014 12:59PM

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I haven't been to portloise but I still find it hard to believe that a healthcare professional wouldn't double and triple check something of this magnitude.

You must have had very few dealing with the HSE or lucky if you think that's the case.
I know sombody that faced a very dangerous delivery because she's diabetic, which requires very specific prenatal care. She was hooked up to a broken ECG that had no paper in it. Her mother, who happens to be a nurse, challenged this only to be told that the machine was working perfectly. Naturally she knew better and ate the face of the nurse in the delivery room who eventually admitted that she couldn't source a functioning ECG. What she had effectively done was hook up a high risk patient to a broken monitor for the sake of appearances and only bothered to remedy the situation when a fuss was made by sombody with expert knowledge who challenged what was going on.

The scary thing is that I know a couple of medical professionals who tell you things like this all the bloody time.

Isolt · 12-12-2014 01:31PM

Was it the GP or the hospital that couldn't find the heartbeat? The article is a little confusing.

It is not uncommon for a GP to have difficult detecting the heartbeat with a handheld doppler. If this happens you're sent off into the hospital for a scan.

I lost my first baby and had two scans over a 10 day period to ensure that the pregnancy was definitely not viable. I don't know how it could take two seconds. On the scan where they confirmed no heartbeat and that the baby was lost they did and external and internal exam to be certain. It was only after that second scan that they arranged a D&C.

If this story is true then thank God the D&C did not go ahead. Having been in that situation I would have given anything to be told that the scan was wrong and my baby was alive and well. So as awful as the story here was for this woman, it often has a worse ending. (that is not to take away from the serious matter of the hospital making a terrible error) I hope the rest of her pregnancy goes well without any issues!

czipownik · 12-12-2014 05:26PM

what i can suggest is to buy a good baby heart monitor and check on your own regulary.
Advanced baby heart monitors show hearbeat from 12 weeks on.

GP's explanation that he can't find the heartbeat cause the baby is too far is simply ridiculous.
Miidwife in Limerick was unable to find hearbeat at 33 weeks on my sister in law... no further comment

RobYourBuilder · 12-12-2014 06:19PM

Are you Czech?

Venus In Furs · 12-12-2014 07:28PM

Human error is an unavoidable reality unfortunately.

Obviously sufficient steps should be taken to minimise it and resolve it when it does occur though, which it appears has not been the case here (I've read up on it a bit further).

seventeen sheep · 12-12-2014 07:59PM

Venus In Furs wrote: »

Human error is an unavoidable reality unfortunately.

Obviously sufficient steps should be taken to minimise it and resolve it when it does occur though, which it appears has not been the case here (I've read up on it a bit further).

Want to share, or are you going to leave it at that?

It's not really necessarily human error. It could have been that due to the size of the baby, or the position of the baby, or the position of the placenta, or other reasons, the heartbeat simply wasn't visible by Dobbler or abdominal ultrasound - nothing to do with the interpretation of the medical professional(s) involved.

Next step is to do an internal transvaginal ultrasound, and when it was clear that the mother was in no immediate medical danger (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy or septic infection), I think the common response in all hospitals is to leave it a few days or a week before doing this, to maximise the chances of (hopefully) seeing more on the transvaginal scan ... and also to allow the miscarriage (if it is one) to pass naturally, rather than having the woman go through the unpleasant experience of a D&C or abortion pills/injections.

When she couldn't wait the week, it sounds like she was facilitated immediately with a follow-up scan, and thankfully they found the heartbeat on that one. That doesn't mean that the professional doing the first scan had done it any differently or that they'd done anything wrong.

How many mothers in her position would be delighted with that outcome - that a heartbeat was found in the subsequent scan! I wish her the best in her pregnancy, and I understand it must have been an upsetting experience for her, but I think it's so unprofessional of the national press to run with her story when - if they'd done their research - they'd realise that this happens literally every day in every pregnancy unit in Ireland.

12-12-2014 08:07PM

seventeen sheep wrote: »

Want to share, or are you going to leave it at that?

It's not really necessarily human error. It could have been that due to the size of the baby, or the position of the baby, or the position of the placenta, or other reasons, the heartbeat simply wasn't visible by Dobbler or abdominal ultrasound - nothing to do with the interpretation of the medical professional(s) involved.

Next step is to do an internal transvaginal ultrasound, and when it was clear that the mother was in no immediate medical danger (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy or septic infection), I think the common response in all hospitals is to leave it a few days or a week before doing this, to maximise the chances of (hopefully) seeing more on the transvaginal scan ... and also to allow the miscarriage (if it is one) to pass naturally, rather than having the woman go through the unpleasant experience of a D&C or abortion pills/injections.

When she couldn't wait the week, it sounds like she was facilitated immediately with a follow-up scan, and thankfully they found the heartbeat on that one. That doesn't mean that the professional doing the first scan had done it any differently or that they'd done anything wrong.

How many mothers in her position would be delighted with that outcome - that a heartbeat was found in the subsequent scan! I wish her the best in her pregnancy, and I understand it must have been an upsetting experience for her, but I think it's so unprofessional of the national press to run with her story when - if they'd done their research - they'd realise that this happens literally every day in every pregnancy unit in Ireland.

That doesnt really tally with the RTE report

Aimee Nolan, originally from Dublin but living in Co Offaly, attended the Midland Regional Hospital Portlaoise on Monday 8 December as a result of a referral from her GP, who had concerns about the baby's heartbeat.

Following a two-hour wait, a doctor carried out a scan on Ms Nolan, who is 14 weeks' pregnant.

She was informed there was no heartbeat and that her baby appeared to be at developmental stage of nine weeks.

The doctor said it appeared the baby had not grown for the past nine weeks.

Ms Nolan was then told her baby was dead.

She was asked to return to the hospital next Monday to discuss her options of either a D&C procedure (dilation and curettage) or medication to induce labour.

Ms Nolan's husband contacted the hospital the following day and requested an earlier date for a D&C.

They were given an appointment for Wednesday.

When Ms Nolan and her husband returned on Wednesday they were met by staff from the maternity unit.

Discussions took place about the options available to Ms Nolan.

A second scan was undertaken and it was discovered there was a heartbeat, the baby was alive and was the correct size for 14/15 weeks.

The Nolans were also told that protocols state that when there was no heartbeat detected on the previous scan a second opinion should have been sought on the day.

However, this did not happen and Ms Nolan was sent home and told to return a week later.

Venus In Furs · 12-12-2014 08:13PM

Yeh I went off to get the RTÉ link but posted my comment by accident, then got distracted by TV.

Done by riffmongous.

Mountainsandh · 12-12-2014 08:50PM

seventeen sheep wrote: »

How many mothers in her position would be delighted with that outcome ... they'd realise that this happens literally every day in every pregnancy unit in Ireland.

I hope this is not the comment of a medical practitioner... that would illustrate the poor standards and expectations that are responsible for such poor practice in Ireland.

Is it normal ?
Is it a reasonable expectation from the maternity services ?
Is that policy ?
"Do the scan, if you don't find a heartbeat, tell patient the foetus is probably dead, if it turns out it wasn't at the double-check, patient will be delighted."

That's shocking.

seventeen sheep · 12-12-2014 09:50PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I hope this is not the comment of a medical practitioner... that would illustrate the poor standards and expectations that are responsible for such poor practice in Ireland.

Is it normal ?
Is it a reasonable expectation from the maternity services ?
Is that policy ?
"Do the scan, if you don't find a heartbeat, tell patient the foetus is probably dead, if it turns out it wasn't at the double-check, patient will be delighted."

That's shocking.

As stated already in earlier posts, it's very unlikely the doctor told the woman that the baby was probably dead. It seems from the wording of the article that this is the interpretation she took from the lack of a visible heartbeat, rather than the doctor actually saying it as a fact.

Like I've said, I've been in this woman's position, where the heartbeat couldn't be found. The midwives and consultants involved in each case were sympathetic, and also realistic about the likely outcomes.

Certainly, we discussed the possibilities of what would happen in the coming days/weeks if it was indeed a miscarriage, and a D&C would have been mentioned.

I can see how a distraught woman could come away from the discussion with the thoughts in her head that her baby was dead and she needed a D&C to remove it - this doesn't mean that it was an accurate reflection of the discussion that took place. In highly stressful situations like this, many people will only retain what they consider to be the most relevant points - and not always accurately.

The story is pure scaremongering (and I blame the tabloids - not the mother), and I feel for anyone currently experiencing a miscarriage or similar who might be frightened reading about it. But I'd be very surprised if anyone has gone through a D&C recently without more than one scan and/or blood test to confirm the pregnancy loss, and to confirm the need for a D&C rather than a natural miscarriage.

czipownik · 13-12-2014 01:38AM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Are you Czech?

No, Polish.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 17-12-2014 01:07AM

Yet another story from Portlaoise hospital

http://www.thejournal.ie/frances-kiely-portlaoise-hospital-1838561-Dec2014/

iguana · 17-12-2014 01:31AM

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

I don't believe this story.

I cant imagine any nurse or doctor lightly announcing a baby dead without having at least the head doctor person having a second look.

This has happened repeatedly in Ireland and was quite the scandal in 2010 after Melissa Redmond had a similar experience to the woman in the OP.

THE HSE HAS APOLOGISED to women whose pregnancies were misdiagnosed as miscarriages.

The statement came today as the HSE released its review of national miscarriage cases which says that a total of 24 cases of miscarriage misdiagnosis occurred in Irish hospitals – around five per cent of the overall cases reviewed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/hse-apologises-after-miscarriage-review-finds-24-cases-of-misdiagnosis-123127-Apr2011/

I'm not sure of the details of the final findings but I remember at the time it was believed that some of the misdiagnosis resulted in unnecessary terminations.

czipownik · 17-12-2014 11:41AM

Trully shocking:-( Poor woman and the baby...

Together with my wife, we were simply too afraid to go through the delivery process in a HSE hospital and decided to go to native Poland.

There was record of 2 early miscarriages in the HSE books. No gyneacologist or obstetrician saw my wife during the course of 3rd pregnancy. At the time of 2nd miscarriage young doctress of Ennis Rd maternity hospital in Limerick told me that "3 or 4 miscarriages are normal, just keep on trying". I pushed her for some investigation and samples were going back and forth Limerick-Dublin-London-Dublin-Limerick (lab analytics not performed in Ireland at all). During mid-term HSE checkup at Cork University Hospital my wife had pregnancy induced blood hypertension already. They recorded 145/95 and commented that "it was okay".

Private gyneacologist in Cork practice was trully shocked that the pregnancy was not treated by the HSE as "the increased risk".

Last trimester was spent in Poznan/Poland with mixture of private and public healthcare. Blood pressure was under very tight control with measurements at home every 2-3 hrs, saving records in a notebook, management with appropriate pills, regular urine sample checkups for trace of protein (sign of pregnancy toxemia and lead up for pre-eclampsia).

Labour was induced at 41 weeks and conducted under "Pregnancy Hypertension - Limited Form" regime. Lenghtening stage 2, vacuum used promptly (less than 5 mins), Apgar 10. Public university maternity hospital, ranked locally as "highest 1st reference level", individual delivery rooms, triple rooms after delivery.

I know a story of a Polish woman who delivered a baby in CUMH Cork this year - pregnancy toxemia, blood pressure just before coming to hospital 167/116. No management by outpatient department prior to delivery. Baby blocked (just head sticking out) for 30+ minutes. Boy spent 3 days in intensive care unit for observation. This time lucky outcome...

I think it is time to call the things the way they are regarding maternity care in Ireland. Unless you go private, HSE care is not adequate in case of complications.

czipownik · 17-12-2014 03:34PM

Of course, not all maternity wards in Poland are good either. There is bad news on internet and tv on a daily basis. Drunken doctors, rude members of staff, medical mistakes - these things do happen. In early 2000s private mass media initiated action "Rodzic po Ludzku" = "Delivering Humainly". A lot has changed since then (legacy of comunism) for better.

While being patient and accompanying person at GPSK Poznan (Ginekologiczno-Polozniczy Szpital Kliniczny = Gyneacology-Obstetric Clinic Hospital) we came across couples/parents from all over the Greater-Poland region of Poland. Something had to have influenced their decision to deliver their babies at this particular hospital...

In spite of official government "tra ta ta" propaganda, there is a range of problems within the Irish maternal care. I think it's very good that cases are brought to surface and are under public discussion.

mirrorwall14 · 17-12-2014 03:40PM

In fairness I'm public in the coombe and I have to say the care I have received has been exceptional to say the least. I've been hospitalised three times and was in a bed within an hour of the decision each time. Had bloods for liver issues done multiple times throughout, I think I'm on my sixth or seventh official ultrasound. Everything has been well organised and explained.

I've been onto emergency/assessment for various other reasons (UTI/rhesus negative etc) and they were brilliant. Always say come in and we'll check. On a monitor in less than half an hour, ultrasound, BP, temp etc all checked. I've got nothing except good things to say about them.

I have another 6 weeks to go before I actually give birth there but right now my confidence in them is excellent and im completely relaxed despite all the earlier issues in the pregnancy.

czipownik · 18-12-2014 01:35AM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

In fairness I'm public in the coombe and I have to say the care I have received has been exceptional to say the least. I've been hospitalised three times and was in a bed within an hour of the decision each time. Had bloods for liver issues done multiple times throughout, I think I'm on my sixth or seventh official ultrasound. Everything has been well organised and explained.

Good for you and wishing all the best with upcoming delivery.

As I mentioned there are good and bad hospitals. There are satisfied and dis-satisfied patients.

My brother-in-law and his wife were very happy with maternity ward in Limerick. Uncomplicated pregnancy, no history of miscarriages, etc.

My tyre-shop specialist in Limerick and his wife were very dis-satisfied after complicated delivery on Ennis Rd Limerick. Pregnancy uncomplicated but baby boy quite heavy 4.5 kg. No decision for a ceasarian until the very last moment. Hemorrhage equivalent to 2 units of blood. One month of hospitalization for mother. Treated like unwanted toy, moved from one room to another several times.

My school time friend and his wife were very happy (three times) with CUMH in Cork. Same story: uncomplicated pregnancies, no miscarriages, etc.

The mentioned Polish woman with hypertension went through the induction, quite shocking that her BP was not stabilized prior to the delivery. Although she was fine, the 30+ mins delay in stage 2 was very bizzare.

I think it's the complicated cases where particular maternity unit is "stress tested" for performance. It's easy to score when everything goes according to "school books".

Doctors told pregnant woman her baby had died … Two days later they found a heartbeat

Comments