RTE report: Bill makes purchasing sexual services an offence

looking_around · 01-12-2014 10:58AM

143]Don't forget there are male sex workers - prostitution is not just limited to women.

On the bit highlighted - [/QUOTE]

I cant quote easily on phone.

just because the choice is unattractive to you. doesn't mean everyone feels that way about. I don't want to be going into too much detail but as.far as jobs ago, it is something that appeals to me.

I wasn't forgetting males, again what makes you think that they aren't happy with their choice? personal experience?

how things work with their partner is between them and their partner. some would be accepting, some would not.

the only reason it's not ok to tell family is because of current stigma and shame.
it can be excellent money, If one is earning well, is that.not something to boast about? only depends

gozunda · 01-12-2014 11:24AM

looking_around wrote: »

I cant quote easily on phone.

just because the choice is unattractive to you. doesn't mean everyone feels that way about. I don't want to be going into too much detail but as.far as jobs ago, it is something that appeals to me.

Nothing to do with any preference one way or other but as jobs go its a pretty ****ty type of job. Serious risks, no pension, no employment rights, and it's a job often of necessity not choice. Seriously who grows up wishing to have a career as a hooker?

looking_around wrote: »

I wasn't forgetting males, again what makes you think that they aren't happy with their choice? personal experience?

You only mentioned women as sex workers btw therefore my inclusion of men.

looking_around wrote: »

how things work with their partner is between them and their partner. some would be accepting, some would not.

Seriously? Not too many men / women unless they are pimps are going to wish for their partners to be doing this tbh. Especially considering the risks. And as for any children - how does that work - seriously ?

looking_around wrote: »

the only reason it's not ok to tell family is because of current stigma and shame.
it can be excellent money, If one is earning well, is that.not something to boast about? only depends

No I don't agree - children are not equipped with the emotional resources or understanding to deal with a parent telling them they work as a prostitute. Other children will ask what does your mammy / daddy do? Not debating that good money can be made but so good money can also be made by other means that may not be legit either - doesn't mean that a person is going to boast about it.

Neyite · 01-12-2014 11:28AM

looking_around wrote: »

you realise, those who choose that work can and do refuse. if they are so repulsd, they'll just say no.

And if they cant afford to turn down the money?

Its not Pretty Woman, and its naive to think that every sex worker skips to work every night and genuinely fancies all the punters, and wants to have every orifice pounded by multiple punters every night. Its really only the stupid punters that cling persistently to the myth that all the workers just LOVE having sex with anyone, especially them, are working freely of their own accord, and are their own bosses, and that the only reason they could possibly want to have sex with THEM is because they fancy them on some level.

Many women are working there to pay off debts to scary people - whether its for smuggling them into a country, or through addictions, or paying off debts of their pimp. Maybe its the choice of having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with, or getting a beating or your family threatened.

You don't know the punter until you see them when you meet, whereby they can just force you anyway, if they wanted to. You may have agreed to do X & Y but the punter forces you to do Z. You may get roughed up and put out of work.

Selling your body dehumanises you. Even for the high-class escorts. For every Belle that has a blog and designer clothes, living the high life and can pick and choose her punters, there are many more sex workers in the cheaper end of the trade, who have been raped, beaten, burned, injured, robbed, exploited, exposed to infections and diseases and do it because they have very few other options, and very little choice.

To regulate the industry would make it safer for all. So that workers can report to the authorities when they get attacked or robbed. So that coercion is minimised. So that those who DO work in the trade do so because they fully and freely choose to.

The_Captain · 01-12-2014 12:41PM

Jesus, it's like some people have watched Taken and thought it was a documentary.

You hear all these stories of women (always women, mind) forced into prostitution. Personally I don't believe that women are being kidnapped off the street in Latvia and smuggled into Ireland in slavery.

There's never any evidence of it, and anything even hinting towards it gets massive media interest.
Look at Samantha Azzopardi, the media went crazy and built this story of a poor 15 year old girl with no English forced into prostitution before it turns out she was just an Australian adult with issues.
If this kind of thing was actually occurring, the Gardai would be desperate to expose it and get PR, newspapers would be launching investigations thinking of the interest they'd get.

I don't think anyone wants to work as a prostitute, but at the same time I don't think it's as horrific as many people are making out.

biko · 01-12-2014 03:58PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

From a quick google
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/seven-victims-of-human-trafficking-found-in-dublin-1.1830346

Gardaí have arrested two Nigerian women after seven potential victims of human trafficking were discovered during a raid on a Dublin address as part of a pan-European crackdown.
The seven victims identified in Dublin, mostly women who may have been forced into prostitution, are now receiving support.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-raid-over-100-suspected-brothels-in-crackdown-26858913.html

Gardai arrested three people, including a man in his 40s and a woman in her 20s, who were both taken to Dundrum garda station for questioning under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act.

In Limerick, where gardai raided more than 15 properties, gardai found women from the UK, Romania, Hungary and Brazil, who had been working as prostitutes in the city.

Police officers in the North also visited over 20 addresses across six counties and searched a number of them.
A total of eight suspects were arrested in the joint operation.

catallus · 01-12-2014 04:03PM

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't think anyone wants to work as a prostitute, but at the same time I don't think it's as horrific as many people are making out.

I don't think many people want to work in a dead-end 9-5 job either. But we suffer through it to survive.

The Corinthian · 01-12-2014 04:21PM

What gets me about this bill, which will almost certainly pass btw, is the lack of democratic debate on it. For many this thread will be the first time they'll have heard of it. Indeed, what happened was they had an expert panel to discuss it about two years ago, refused to recognize any sex workers that wished to go before it, the panel was made up of only people who supported it's implementation (e.g. Bacik) and finally ignored the expert opinion of many of the experts that did go before them.

Two years later, it's about to become law.

Not the first time; the cohabitation bill - specifically the 'opt-out' clause that means you have to opt-out of being automatically financially responsible for your partner if you live together for five years (or less), will probably be news to people here too, even though it's been law for a few years. That wasn't exactly debated either and was essentially pushed through by many of the same people (e.g. Bacik).

I'm looking forward to see what the next law is going to suddenly appear that no one has heard of until it's too late. My bet is some new gender quota for the private sector or abolition of custodial sentences for women. Enjoy.

catallus · 01-12-2014 04:25PM

Maybe we should be grateful that our elite overlords are making these decisions for us?

Surely they know better than the masses what is good for society.

The_Captain · 01-12-2014 05:00PM

Gardaí have arrested two Nigerian women after seven potential victims of human trafficking were discovered during a raid on a Dublin address as part of a pan-European crackdown.
The seven victims identified in Dublin, mostly women who may have been forced into prostitution, are now receiving support.

:rolleyes: The media builds another story out of zero facts. I know this is a weird concept to people, but some women willingly become prostitutes

One eyed Jack · 01-12-2014 05:03PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

What gets me about this bill, which will almost certainly pass btw, is the lack of democratic debate on it. For many this thread will be the first time they'll have heard of it. Indeed, what happened was they had an expert panel to discuss it about two years ago, refused to recognize any sex workers that wished to go before it, the panel was made up of only people who supported it's implementation (e.g. Bacik) and finally ignored the expert opinion of many of the experts that did go before them.

Two years later, it's about to become law.

...

I'm looking forward to see what the next law is going to suddenly appear that no one has heard of until it's too late. My bet is some new gender quota for the private sector or abolition of custodial sentences for women. Enjoy.

As I recall, there was plenty of discussion around this issue at the time -

Exclusion of sex workers from Justice Committee

And that thread was one of the reasons why I didn't bother contributing to this thread (until now), because the amount of ill informed opinion and sheer ignorance on that thread is no different than most of the stuff that's been posted on this thread again.

Why would anyone want to bother discussing anything with people who aren't willing to engage in any form of meaningful discussion? Numerous posters here are just as bad as the Justice Committee for sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring and shouting down any opinion they don't agree with.

Greenmachine · 01-12-2014 05:05PM

Let ban fast food restaurant, independent retailer and foreign embassy, after all some people are exploited in all these areas.

looking_around · 01-12-2014 05:11PM

can't type below quote so to this " Selling your body dehumanises you. Even for the high-class escorts. For every Belle that has a blog and designer clothes, living the high life and can pick and choose her punters, there are many more sex workers in the cheaper end of the trade, who have been raped, beaten, burned, injured, robbed, exploited, exposed to infections and diseases and do it because they have very few other options, and very little choice."

isn't all that reason to make legal and allow prostitutes some protection??
about the pension, again, make it legal and they can set up a pension.

about the kids, take the shame and horror from it and it's just another job.

it doesn't dehumanise every one who chooses that line of work. again protection, safety and encouragement on personal well being would go a long way here.

your post basically is make it illegal "because it's bad work and no one should choose it". but people do, real protection is through regulation.

nozzferrahhtoo · 01-12-2014 05:13PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it just kerb crawling that is illegal now? What is the law in relation to hiring an escort online?

No idea to be honest. I believe they get around existing laws by not selling sex services but selling their time. And anything that consensual happens between her and her client other than that is entirely unrelated.

So I am not sure what kind of law changes they are making to address that kind of loop hole approach. There is no law against paying someone to simply spend time with you. So what can they do??

Berserker wrote: »

I do not want to see prostitution legalised in this country. Dublin, as a city, is pretty unpleasant as is, without adding the extra eye sore of a RLD to it. I am happy to maintain the status quo on it, to be honest. I have serious concerns about the parties who are pushing this new bill also.

I do not know the laws on it here in Germany, the public side of it that is. But it appears to be entirely legal in terms of brothels and website escorts and so forth. Playing ingress around the place in my relatively small city the other players have pointed out too places to me that are obviously brothels. There may be several more but those two I know of. I checked just now and they both have an online presence showing who is working there this week and so forth, with pictures short bio and prices.

But without it being pointed out to me I likely would never have noticed. It is simply not all that visible here at all. I would hope Ireland some day make it perfectly legal, but in a way that also makes it not overly unpleasant or visible either. Just like here.

gozunda wrote: »

what person engaging such services knows if a sex worker has or has not been trafficked or coerced into prostitution. Legalisation of prostitution can only set standards - it cannot create a perfect state where people are free from such exploitation.

Nope but it can help. Especially with regulation and licenses that require periodic renewal. It certainly allows people to easier report crimes when they are not themselves considered to be committing one for example. I certainly do not buy into any "If we cant do it perfect then lets not do it at all" thinking some people try to pedal. I do not expect it to ever be perfect, but that does not mean there is no right and wrong moves in that area.

gozunda wrote: »

Nothing to do with any preference one way or other but as jobs go its a pretty ****ty type of job. Serious risks, no pension, no employment rights

All the more reason for regulation then. When they are tax paying members of society then we have the ability to start giving them some of those rights and protections.

Yamanoto · 01-12-2014 05:16PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As I recall, there was plenty of discussion around this issue at the time -

Exclusion of sex workers from Justice Committee

And that thread was one of the reasons why I didn't bother contributing to this thread (until now), because the amount of ill informed opinion and sheer ignorance on that thread is no different than most of the stuff that's been posted on this thread again.

Why would anyone want to bother discussing anything with people who aren't willing to engage in any form of meaningful discussion? Numerous posters here are just as bad as the Justice Committee for sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring and shouting down any opinion they don't agree with.

Did you contribute to the thread linked to above and if so, under what name?

01-12-2014 05:25PM

Neyite wrote: »

wants to have every orifice pounded by multiple punters every night.

I know two girls who have said they want to do it - and they do not even need the money really. They just want to do it for a short time. Not as a career though. Just a few weeks to try it - they appear to think the idea somewhat sexy if done right and within their small conditions. They even asked if I would do their online stuff to almost "pimp" them (set up accounts on the websites for it and do "First line" response on the emails and pass on to them whatever sounds above boards).

I knew a girl in college who did it too. She did not have multiple punters every night. She had one or two a week - maximum - and some weeks none - and it subsidised her income quite nicely - and she claimed she enjoyed the work.

She knew other people in the trade and they too did not have "multiple a night" either - and they were full career girls at it. Quite often when they had a punter - they would knock off for the night after it. It does not actually take that many punters in a week to take home the same wage many people here would be on.

Think about your own take home pay each week. At 100 or 150 euro a pop just how many punters would it actually take to match that take home? Probably not that many at all. Certainly would not be many to match MY take home - and I am in what would be considered the middle of the upper range of Middle Class jobs.

Of course the one down side with regulation and legalisation is actually the same as one of the upsides. Paying Tax. While this is good - it would mean they either have to up their prices OR have a small increase in punters to deal with it.

Neyite wrote: »

Selling your body dehumanises you.

Not so sure it does. The people who judge them - or treat them different - for selling it however certainly do.

The Corinthian · 01-12-2014 05:26PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As I recall, there was plenty of discussion around this issue at the time

A thread on Boards is plenty of discussion now? Grand so.

And that thread was one of the reasons why I didn't bother contributing to this thread (until now), because the amount of ill informed opinion and sheer ignorance on that thread is no different than most of the stuff that's been posted on this thread again.

Why would anyone want to bother discussing anything with people who aren't willing to engage in any form of meaningful discussion? Numerous posters here are just as bad as the Justice Committee for sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring and shouting down any opinion they don't agree with.

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

The_Captain · 01-12-2014 05:58PM

Don't agree with much Mick Wallace generally but I think he's right here

The enthusiasm of many for the criminalisation of human behaviour very often defies common sense. The views expressed by Ivana Bacik are worrying and would seem closer to the American fundamentalist Christian right than to a progressive European position.
In a 2010 report, the UN special rapporteur on the right to health, Anand Graver, called upon states “to repeal all laws criminalising sex work and practices around it, and to establish appropriate regulatory frameworks within which sex workers can enjoy the safe working conditions to which they are entitled”.
The report goes on to say that “the trafficking and enforced sexual slavery of any person is abhorrent, and undoubtedly merits criminal prohibition. However, the conflation of consensual sex work and sex trafficking in such legislation leads to, at best, the implementation of inappropriate responses that fail to assist either of these groups in realising their rights and, at worst, to violence and oppression.”
Furthermore, the report of the UNAIDS Advisory Group on HIV and Sex Work, published in 2011, is very critical of methods such as the Swedish model, stating “Stigma and discrimination within society results in repressive laws, policies and practices against sex work, and the economic disempowerment of sex workers. Policies and programmes to reduce the demand for sex work . . . ignoring the voices of sex workers, often result in unintended harms including increased HIV risk and vulnerability for sex workers and their clients, and diverting attention from protecting sex workers’ rights. The frequent failure of policymakers, religious leaders and society to distinguish sex work from human trafficking has sometimes led to involuntary displacement, harassment or detention of sex workers.”
Referring specifically to the Swedish model, the report notes, “In Sweden and Norway, the buying of sex is criminalised, an approach based on the idea that the client may merit punishment, but the sex worker is a ‘victim’. There is very little evidence to suggest that any criminal laws related to sex work reduce demand for sex or the number of sex workers. Rather, all of them create an environment of fear and marginalisation for sex workers, who often have to work in remote and unsafe locations to avoid arrest of themselves or their clients.”
Instead of eliminating prostitution, the unintended consequences of adopting the Swedish model in Ireland are likely to see sex work being driven further underground, an increase in the risks for the women and men who sell sex, and increased difficulties for them in accessing health services.
For some, sex work is their only source of income and their means of providing for their families. Criminalising their clients will put these sex workers at increased risk of poverty, and lead to further stigmatisation and marginalisation.
Symbolic laws are a folly that Ireland cannot afford, especially when the health and safety of women are at stake

Grayson · 01-12-2014 07:01PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

I remember that thread. Any argument that didn't match his was dismissed because the people making them were "uninformed".

Yurt2 · 01-12-2014 07:33PM

Bad law.

The suggestion that thousands of women are trafficked into Ireland and held doing sex work against their will is the stuff of moral panic. There's very very little evidence that this is even happening in any significant way never mind is widespread. Moral panic makes for bad law.

I'd wager that 95% of sex work activity in this country is done through escort websites etc. by women in control of the transaction and not pimped. The vast vast majority of sex workers think this is a crap idea.

RDM_83 again · 01-12-2014 11:14PM

looking_around wrote: »

So what if demand is increased?

If women aren't happy with it, but are there for financial reasons, they will work their way out of it. Maybe the country could make it legal and have an emphasis on ways to climb out of that industry. (ie college etc.)

This is of course assuming that the majority of prostitutes are forced via financial reasons/drugs etc.
I might be wrong but, I think the majority are prostitutes by choice. It's not exactly the worst job out there.

If it did increase demand, maybe it would also increase employment? and tax? I'm not imagining it's the answer to employment problems of course...but it surely helps to have another employment option?

As I said I don't have a solution to this issue: I just think that if demand increases more people will be drawn into the industry that are vulnerable. Being vulnerable isn't always as simple as being locked up by a caricature evil eastern european guy or having a boyfriend that will kick the sh^t out of her if she doesn't support his smack habit, pressures can be much more subtle and might be completely internal too.

Maybe legalization is the least worst option in terms of harm reduction, possibly the status quo before this bill is introduced would be superior if resources were used to clamp down on the worst sides of the industry. I'm fairly certain this bill isn't the right way forward though.

A point can be made in terms of the legalization route that we do restrict to a very high degree jobs that can be harmful or dangerous

Its also a bit silly talking about wanting to do something in terms of sexual fantasy, compared with actually going through with it with no ill effects, sure rape fantasy is a surprisingly common thing too.

looking_around · 01-12-2014 11:36PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

As I said I don't have a solution to this issue: I just think that if demand increases more people will be drawn into the industry that are vulnerable. Being vulnerable isn't always as simple as being locked up by a caricature evil eastern european guy or having a boyfriend that will kick the sh^t out of her if she doesn't support his smack habit, pressures can be much more subtle and might be completely internal too.

Maybe legalization is the least worst option in terms of harm reduction, possibly the status quo before this bill is introduced would be superior if resources were used to clamp down on the worst sides of the industry. I'm fairly certain this bill isn't the right way forward though.

A point can be made in terms of the legalization route that we do restrict to a very high degree jobs that can be harmful or dangerous

Its also a bit silly talking about wanting to do something in terms of sexual fantasy, compared with actually going through with it with no ill effects, sure rape fantasy is a surprisingly common thing too.

It's not all that silly and it's not a fantasy. But I'll leave that there.

I don't know why you are only choosing to look at it from a negative viewpoint and making it sound like it makes up the majority of the industry.

that's really the glass half empty.
If a woman is being coerced into it for her bf's drug habit(I mean really?...there's more probability it's for her own, but anyway.) Have a set up that allows them to seek help for abuse etc, as that would be an emotionally abusive relationship.
There's every chance that happens in more "respectable" jobs as well, so what's the difference?

From your posts, you come across very against prostitution. Like it's not a suitable career choice and that that pushes your ideas that mostly "vulnerable" people would take it up.

I can think of worse jobs than prostitution, but that's a personal preference. Same for anyone and any job.

RDM_83 again · 01-12-2014 11:44PM

looking_around wrote: »

It's not all that silly and it's not a fantasy. But I'll leave that there.

I was replying to Taxha's post there

looking_around wrote: »

I don't know why you are only choosing to look at it from a negative viewpoint and making it sound like it makes up the majority of the industry.

that's really the glass half empty.
If a woman is being coerced into it for her bf's drug habit(I mean really?...there's more probability it's for her own, but anyway.) Have a set up that allows them to seek help for abuse etc, as that would be an emotionally abusive relationship.
There's every chance that happens in more "respectable" jobs as well, so what's the difference?

From your posts, you come across very against prostitution. Like it's not a suitable career choice and that that pushes your ideas that mostly "vulnerable" people would take it up.

I can think of worse jobs than prostitution, but that's a personal preference. Same for anyone and any job.

I'm not certain at all that it is mainly vulnerable people that make up the majority of the industry, if fact it probably isn't. What I do think is that it does draw in some people that are vulnerable and I'm not sure this can be avoided by the magic bullet of legalization.
As I said I'm conflicted about this issue, I believe people should have choices but I also believe that we should try and minimize harm, even less obvious 'harms'.
In each of my posts I've said I don't know what the best answer is.

looking_around · 01-12-2014 11:51PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I was replying to Taxha's post there

I'm not certain at all that it is mainly vulnerable people that make up the majority of the industry, if fact it probably isn't. What I do think is that it does draw in some people that are vulnerable and I'm not sure this can be avoided by the magic bullet of legalization.
As I said I'm conflicted about this issue, I believe people should have choices but I also believe that we should try and minimize harm, even less obvious 'harms'.
In each of my posts I've said I don't know what the best answer is.

It's certainly not avoided by lack of legislation, all that does, is punish those who choose it and prevent them conducting their business "by the books".
And criminalising it is even worse.

gozunda · 02-12-2014 12:00AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know two girls who have said they want to do it - and they do not even need the money really. They just want to do it for a short time. Not as a career though. Just a few weeks to try it - they appear to think the idea somewhat sexy if done right and within their small conditions. They even asked if I would do their online stuff to almost "pimp" them (set up accounts on the websites for it and do "First line" response on the emails and pass on to them whatever sounds above boards).

I knew a girl in college who did it too. She did not have multiple punters every night. She had one or two a week - maximum - and some weeks none - and it subsidised her income quite nicely - and she claimed she enjoyed the work.

She knew other people in the trade and they too did not have "multiple a night" either - and they were full career girls at it. Quite often when they had a punter - they would knock off for the night after it. It does not actually take that many punters in a week to take home the same wage many people here would be on.

Think about your own take home pay each week. At 100 or 150 euro a pop just how many punters would it actually take to match that take home? Probably not that many at all. Certainly would not be many to match MY take home - and I am in what would be considered the middle of the upper range of Middle Class jobs.

...

Ha ha -seriously you've been reading way too many porn fantasy stories. Nymphos mad to try prostitution, naughty college girls :rolleyes:

There is way too many blokes here patently ignoring the ugly side of the prostitution industry and subsidising their own reality. This would be funny if it wasnt such a serious issue.

looking_around · 02-12-2014 12:05AM

gozunda wrote: »

Ha ha -seriously you've been reading way too many porn fantasy stories. Nymphos mad to try prostitution, naughty college girls :rolleyes:

There is way too many blokes here patently ignoring the ugly side of the prostitution industry and subsidising their own reality. This would be funny if it wasnt such a serious issue.

What statistics do you have that it's a serious issue in Ireland?

gozunda · 02-12-2014 12:09AM

looking_around wrote: »

What statistics do you have that it's a serious issue in Ireland?

Who mentioned 'statistics' Or 'Ireland' in that sentence ????
If you wish you can post whatever statistics yourself to make whatever point you like - fantasies included :rolleyes:

Neyite · 02-12-2014 12:09AM

looking_around wrote: »

It's certainly not avoided by lack of legislation, all that does, is punish those who choose it and prevent them conducting their business "by the books".
And criminalising it is even worse.

I think you are picking up some people wrong, certainly you picked me up wrong so I'll clarify a bit: I believe this legislation is stupid. I think that if any legislation comes in, it should be to legalise the industry so that, like any high risk profession, due care can be given in terms of health and personal safety. So that when workers who are working legally get treated badly, whether that's by a pimp or punter they are not afraid to seek help. I want it legal and safe for all involved.

I'm not particularly bothered by sex work- personally its not something I could do myself but I'll never judge anyone who chooses that career. I think it must be a hard life for many and a last resort for some.

looking_around · 02-12-2014 12:10AM

gozunda wrote: »

Who mentioned 'statistics'????
If you wish you can post whatever statistics yourself to make whatever point you wish.

You're the one who claims it's a serious issue, perhaps you should back that up

gozunda · 02-12-2014 12:14AM

looking_around wrote: »

You're the one who claims it's a serious issue, perhaps you should back that up

For the the hard of understanding that was a 'serious issue' in relation to the 'ugly side' of prostitution. You seemed to think it was something that people could work their way out of ....

looking_around wrote: »

...

If women aren't happy with it, but are there for financial reasons, they will work their way out of it. Maybe the country could make it legal and have an emphasis on ways to climb out of that industry. (ie college etc.)

Any stats on that

looking_around · 02-12-2014 12:24AM

gozunda wrote: »

For the the hard of understanding that was a 'serious issue' in relation to the 'ugly side' of prostitution. You seemed to think it was something that people could work their way out of ....

Any stats on that

It's Ireland, we have a welfare system for the unemployed, with fantastic back to school allowance, why can't they?

(assuming they aren't in there for drugs, if they are, that's a different problem, that legalising, having regulations etc would go a long way to sorting out.)

RTE report: Bill makes purchasing sexual services an offence

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