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Ireland to ultimately decide fate of Britain's chances of immigrant deal with EU

  • 29-11-2014 04:52AM
    #1
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,375 ✭✭✭✭


    Some will have seen David Cameron's "give us what we want or we will.......do something" speech yesterday.

    Britain's proposed changes on it's own behalf would require EU treaty change (confirmed) and thus an Irish referendum. Britain wants a special deal to basically thumb it's nose at certain EU requirements regarding EU immigration to their shores yet keep the benefits of membership. And they want this done within 3 years.

    So will it be yes or no to our neighbours?


    I'd say now probably a no from me. I don't see why they should get preferential treatment in the EU against the rest of us. Also could have implications for Irish emigrants to the UK.


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    jamesbondings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭jamesbondings


    A definite no from me too, for a few reasons,

    1) There are far too many Irish that this could effect both now and in the future. The UK has always been our go to place when times are tough here, although recently we see trends of going further afield for work. To think that the would be barriers for my kids getting work across the water (thus pushing them further afield to the likes of Oz, Canada and the States) would mean it would be difficult for us or our family to see them on a regular basis.

    2) Now i have no issue with any race or creed or religion. But if this were passed, there would be a mass exodus from the UK. And where else in the EU is the first language english? Where the cultures are closely related? We couldnt cope with a huge influx of people here, sure we can barely look after ourselves.

    3) The UK wants to build a wall around itself while enjoying the benefits of being in the EU, let them leave. They will if they dont get their own way with this but why should we bow down to them? Either way in 3-6 years, if they get their way or not, we will have to deal with the implications as they will leave regardless. They will then kick everyone they dont want there out and Ireland will pick up the pieces.


  • #3
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    I am not much of a fan of the Times columnist David Aaronovitch but he is spot on here I feel:

    https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/538105256568426496


  • #4
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet. As we all know they became the European guinea pig to the US melting pot culture, now mention anything about tightening borders and you're a waycist and may have a piece written about you in the 'Grauniad'.


  • #5
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,375 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet.

    Which EU province do you speak of?

    The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet. As we all know they became the European guinea pig to the US melting pot culture, now mention anything about tightening borders and you're a waycist and may have a piece written about you in the 'Grauniad'.

    We are not insignificant within the EU, everything isn't measured in population size and natural resources you know. And we certainly do not need to pander to the UK or any other country for that matter to keep anyone sweet. We can make an educated decision based on our own views regarding this and nobody else's.


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  • #7
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Which EU province do you speak of?

    The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.

    Lol.

    I've seen plenty of ad hominems on boards, but I think this is possibly the first time I've seen the trifecta of ad hominem combined with touching naivetee and illogicality all in the one post.


  • #8
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Which EU province do you speak of?

    The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.

    ROI is the insignificant province.


  • #9
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Sacramento wrote: »
    We are not insignificant within the EU, everything isn't measured in population size and natural resources you know.

    They may not be the only factors, but it is touchingly naive to believe that they aren't significant factors.
    Sacramento wrote: »
    And we certainly do not need to pander to the UK or any other country for that matter to keep anyone sweet. We can make an educated decision based on our own views regarding this and nobody else's.

    It's not a matter of pandering, it is a matter of doing what is in our national best interests.


  • #10
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    It's a yes from me. Those who say it will put up barriers are talking nonsense Ireland can set up its own free trade agreement with the UK.


  • #11
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,192 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Some will have seen David Cameron's "give us what we want or we will.......do something" speech yesterday.

    Britain's proposed changes on it's own behalf would require EU treaty change (confirmed) and thus an Irish referendum. Britain wants a special deal to basically thumb it's nose at certain EU requirements regarding EU immigration to their shores yet keep the benefits of membership. And they want this done within 3 years.

    So will it be yes or no to our neighbours?


    I'd say now probably a no from me. I don't see why they should get preferential treatment in the EU against the rest of us. Also could have implications for Irish emigrantsto the UK.

    It won't affect us because of The Common Travel Area even if they make changes.


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  • #12
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    A referendum won't be required.

    The Irish won't be affected.


  • #13
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,375 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    ROI is the insignificant province.

    I don't agree. Firstly the EU is not a state and secondly the 28 sovereign countries have no wish for it to be.


  • #14
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I don't agree. Firstly the EU is not a state and secondly the 28 sovereign countries have no wish for it to be.

    You might want to check out this thread:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056478553&page=112

    The europhile posters there are openly saying it was the plan all along to have a centralised eurostate, and the stupid Brits are idiots for wanting out.


  • #15
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,375 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Jawgap wrote: »
    A referendum won't be required.

    The Irish won't be affected.

    It will. Under Irish law every treaty change requires a referendum.


  • #16
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    It will. Under Irish law every treaty change requires a referendum.

    If you read the detail of the proposal you'll see the Brits are not proposing to 'exclude' people - they are setting up a new system. Their argument will be that as it's a 'new' system new qualifications rules will apply - therefore they are not 'excluding' people, they are simply deciding who will qualify / be admitted to the new scheme.

    As such the compatibility of the new scheme will have to be determined with various EU Directives, and they may have to negotiate an opt out from some treaty provisions, but there's no referendum on out party required.

    What makes you think there will be?


  • #17
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    jamesbondings wrote: »
    A definite no from me too, for a few reasons,

    1) There are far too many Irish that this could effect both now and in the future. The UK has always been our go to place when times are tough here, although recently we see trends of going further afield for work. To think that the would be barriers for my kids getting work across the water (thus pushing them further afield to the likes of Oz, Canada and the States) would mean it would be difficult for us or our family to see them on a regular basis.

    This won't effect any future Irish emigrants to the UK or those already over there. Under the Ireland Act 1948, "Irish citizens would not be treated as aliens under British nationality law."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

    Hence why Irish citizens resident can vote in their general elections, and they can vote in ours(but not presidential elections and referendums) and other immigrants cannot.


  • #18
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Since the millennium, the vast majority of immigrants Britian received per annum were non EU. A recent study has shown that EU immigrants pay more in to the system than they take out, while non EU immigration has been a £100 billion plus net drain. I don't know why they are always harping on about EU immigrants.

    Immigrants who came to live in Britain from outside Europe cost the public purse nearly £120 billion over 17 years, a new report has shown. The major academic study also found, however, that recent immigration from Europe – driven by the surge in arrivals from eastern European – gave the economy a £4.4 billion boost over the same period. 

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html


  • #19
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Cameron seems to be make idle threats on one hand, however there seems to be a common thread across many european countries on the immigration narrative especially with the new influx of eastern european member states.

    I have said time and again that there is a gross paradox in this debate. The people who have 'suffered' most from open EU borders are those of the working class native populace who compete for unskilled or semi skilled jobs in the service industry, agriculture and low tech manufacturing. Instead of competing for these jobs with their neighbour, they now have to compete with these jobs with 10,000's of thousands of eastern europeans who are hungry for work, will do these these jobs to a good standard and have a great work ethic. Its no wonder business like to hire them. However, left leaning politicians, newspapers, sociologists, university lecturers, inner city bohemian types will never ever ever criticise this as this could/may be seen as... shhh, whisper it, Racist.....!

    So they pontificate all night and day about inequality, climate change, animal rights and so on but when it actually comes to the labour market their working class man has to compete in they are absent from the debate. A shrug of the shoulders is the best you get. This is why this debate has come to the fore now. Working class communities in post industrial western Europe feel to a large extent betrayed by politicians who are seen to not act in the best interest of their communities or national state politics but in the interest of treaties and global institutions.

    A perfect illustration of this is encapsulated in the now infamous tweet by Emily Thornbury who tweeted a picture of a house with two St. Georges flag hanging from the windows and a white van parked outside. Even though the house was not even in Rochester it was a blatant attempt to smear the imminent victory by UKIP in that by-election. i.e. only yobs and tradies who hang flags on their house vote for UKIP... nice!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11243726/Labour-shadow-minister-accused-of-contempt-for-working-classes-over-white-van-tweet.html

    It cost her her job and has torn the Labour party in two which has basically shown up the Labour party as being out of touch, elitist, snobs and aloof of the common working man in the UK.

    This issue is of course years in the making and can be directly traced back to the Labour Government of Blair and Brown who had no idea of the impacts of immigration nor the extent while also perpetuating their own brand of multiculturalism (e.g. St George flags are racist!) and anyone who is proud of Britain or England is one step away from being a fully fledged member of the EDL or BNP. I have talked to a few people regarding this new liberal phenomena of the last few years, and they would be traditionally Labour voters but it annoys them no end that one cannot even say they are proud of their country and its achievements as now that would be seen as bordering on racism.

    Another person I know well, who grew up in the former Yugoslavia and who went to collage in Nottingham in the early 90's and went back to work there for a number of years in the 2000's said that the situation regarding the freedom to speak openly about topics is so bad (i.e the totalitarianism of the left regarding politically correct speech) that he felt that he had more freedom of speech in Tito's Yugoslavia in the 80's than in Labours Britain of the 2000's. That I thought was a shocking state of affairs of modern Britain and an indictment of that government and modern British politics.


  • #20
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Since the millennium, the vast majority of immigrants Britian received per annum were non EU. A recent study has shown that EU immigrants pay more in to the system than they take out, while non EU immigration has been a £100 billion plus net drain. I don't know why they are always harping on about EU immigrants.




    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

    I think it's because a lot of EU immigrants do blue collar jobs. Plumbers, builders etc... This makes them more noticeable by certain segments of the population.


  • #21
    Jose Mourinho GOAT
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭Jose Mourinho GOAT


    So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.


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  • #22
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    This won't effect any future Irish emigrants to the UK or those already over there. Under the Ireland Act 1948, "Irish citizens would not be treated as aliens under British nationality law."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

    Hence why Irish citizens resident can vote in their general elections, and they can vote in ours(but not presidential elections and referendums) and other immigrants cannot.

    Right ok so basically this is xenophobic because they want to treat every other European as lesser people than Irish people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #23
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Right ok so basically this is xenophobic because they want to treat every other European as lesser people than Irish people.

    Plenty of countries had agreements with each other that predate their EU membership.

    The Nordic Union, for example. Nothing "xenophobic" about that.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union


  • #24
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    It won't affect us because of The Common Travel Area even if they make changes.

    If they leave the EU over immigration they won't want to leave a backdoor for migrants.


  • #25
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »
    So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

    Yep. Sounds fair. They'd get the shock of their life when they realise just how many British live outside the country within the EU. See table below (although I'm not how in up-to-date it is).


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/ (200,000 in France, 760,000 in Spain, 200,000 in Ireland).


    Cameron is a smarmy wanker.


  • #26
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »
    So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

    Have you read the proposal? Because nowhere does it mention stopping immigration.


  • #27
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Yeah, like the French and Spanish will deport retirees who invested their life savings into the move, bought property outright, who receive a monthly stipend from the UK which goes straight into their economy, who don't displace local workers and whose medical care costs are all billed back to the NHS.

    Retirees are dream immigrants. The only downside is that they jack up property prices for the locals.


  • #28
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »
    So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

    Britain, Ireland and Sweden opened their labour markets to new accession state nationals when every other EU 15 country didn't. Those three took the brunt of mass immigration from the A8 whilst the others kept their doors firmly shut. It's funny how eaten bread is soon forgotten.

    Anyway, this proposal only mentions repatriating those who are unemployed after six months of being in Britain. Under EU directives, they could do this after 90 days. If they get a job and pay their way, which should be seen as a given, they have nothing to worry about.


  • #29
    Jose Mourinho GOAT
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13 ✭Jose Mourinho GOAT


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Britain, Ireland and Sweden opened their labour markets to new accession state nationals when every other EU 15 country didn't. Those three took the brunt of mass immigration from the A8 whilst the others kept their doors firmly shut. It's funny how eaten bread is soon forgotten.

    Anyway, this proposal only mentions repatriating those who are unemployed after six months of being in Britain. Under EU directives, they could do this after 90 days. If they get a job and pay their way, which should be seen as a given, they have nothing to worry about.

    That's fine but then the reverse needs to also be the case for Brits in EU states.


  • #30
    Sclosages
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 489 ✭✭Sclosages


    Britain has a unique relationship with Ireland. I can't see that changing. Their main concern are welfare recipients I think? So they don't want to ban anyone - they can come and work if they like - but they won't receive welfare immediately. Sounds fair enough to me.


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  • #31
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »
    That's fine but then the reverse needs to also be the case for Brits in EU states.

    It already is the case.
    Union citizens have a right of residence on the territory of a Member State for a period up to three months without any conditions. Family members of EU citizens who do not have the nationality of a Member State enjoy the same rights as the citizen spouse whom they accompany or join. Union citizens have a right of residence for more than three months if they

    (a) are workers or self employed in the Member State,

    (b) have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the State,

    (c) are enrolled at a private or public established and have sickness insurance, and

    (d) are family members accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

    http://emn.ie/cat_search_detail.jsp?clog=4&itemID=213&item_name

    The UK is planning on giving future migrants 180 days to get it together, not the 90 under the directive. Pretty generous of them!


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