Ireland to ultimately decide fate of Britain's chances of immigrant deal with EU

Kermit.de.frog

Some will have seen David Cameron's "give us what we want or we will.......do something" speech yesterday.

Britain's proposed changes on it's own behalf would require EU treaty change (confirmed) and thus an Irish referendum. Britain wants a special deal to basically thumb it's nose at certain EU requirements regarding EU immigration to their shores yet keep the benefits of membership. And they want this done within 3 years.

So will it be yes or no to our neighbours?


I'd say now probably a no from me. I don't see why they should get preferential treatment in the EU against the rest of us. Also could have implications for Irish emigrants to the UK.

jamesbondings

A definite no from me too, for a few reasons,

1) There are far too many Irish that this could effect both now and in the future. The UK has always been our go to place when times are tough here, although recently we see trends of going further afield for work. To think that the would be barriers for my kids getting work across the water (thus pushing them further afield to the likes of Oz, Canada and the States) would mean it would be difficult for us or our family to see them on a regular basis.

2) Now i have no issue with any race or creed or religion. But if this were passed, there would be a mass exodus from the UK. And where else in the EU is the first language english? Where the cultures are closely related? We couldnt cope with a huge influx of people here, sure we can barely look after ourselves.

3) The UK wants to build a wall around itself while enjoying the benefits of being in the EU, let them leave. They will if they dont get their own way with this but why should we bow down to them? Either way in 3-6 years, if they get their way or not, we will have to deal with the implications as they will leave regardless. They will then kick everyone they dont want there out and Ireland will pick up the pieces.

porsche959

I am not much of a fan of the Times columnist David Aaronovitch but he is spot on here I feel:

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/538105256568426496

DEFTLEFTHAND

As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet. As we all know they became the European guinea pig to the US melting pot culture, now mention anything about tightening borders and you're a waycist and may have a piece written about you in the 'Grauniad'.

Kermit.de.frog

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet.

Which EU province do you speak of?

The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

As an insignificant EU province I'd say it's vital to play to the UK and keep them sweet. As we all know they became the European guinea pig to the US melting pot culture, now mention anything about tightening borders and you're a waycist and may have a piece written about you in the 'Grauniad'.

We are not insignificant within the EU, everything isn't measured in population size and natural resources you know. And we certainly do not need to pander to the UK or any other country for that matter to keep anyone sweet. We can make an educated decision based on our own views regarding this and nobody else's.

porsche959

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Which EU province do you speak of?

The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.

Lol.

I've seen plenty of ad hominems on boards, but I think this is possibly the first time I've seen the trifecta of ad hominem combined with touching naivetee and illogicality all in the one post.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Which EU province do you speak of?

The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country so clearly you don't live here.

ROI is the insignificant province.

porsche959

Sacramento wrote: »

We are not insignificant within the EU, everything isn't measured in population size and natural resources you know.

They may not be the only factors, but it is touchingly naive to believe that they aren't significant factors.

Sacramento wrote: »

And we certainly do not need to pander to the UK or any other country for that matter to keep anyone sweet. We can make an educated decision based on our own views regarding this and nobody else's.

It's not a matter of pandering, it is a matter of doing what is in our national best interests.

Iwasfrozen

It's a yes from me. Those who say it will put up barriers are talking nonsense Ireland can set up its own free trade agreement with the UK.

Galwayguy35

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Some will have seen David Cameron's "give us what we want or we will.......do something" speech yesterday.

Britain's proposed changes on it's own behalf would require EU treaty change (confirmed) and thus an Irish referendum. Britain wants a special deal to basically thumb it's nose at certain EU requirements regarding EU immigration to their shores yet keep the benefits of membership. And they want this done within 3 years.

So will it be yes or no to our neighbours?


I'd say now probably a no from me. I don't see why they should get preferential treatment in the EU against the rest of us. Also could have implications for Irish emigrantsto the UK.

It won't affect us because of The Common Travel Area even if they make changes.

Jawgap

A referendum won't be required.

The Irish won't be affected.

Kermit.de.frog

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

ROI is the insignificant province.

I don't agree. Firstly the EU is not a state and secondly the 28 sovereign countries have no wish for it to be.

porsche959

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I don't agree. Firstly the EU is not a state and secondly the 28 sovereign countries have no wish for it to be.

You might want to check out this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056478553&page=112

The europhile posters there are openly saying it was the plan all along to have a centralised eurostate, and the stupid Brits are idiots for wanting out.

Kermit.de.frog

Jawgap wrote: »

A referendum won't be required.

The Irish won't be affected.

It will. Under Irish law every treaty change requires a referendum.

Jawgap

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It will. Under Irish law every treaty change requires a referendum.

If you read the detail of the proposal you'll see the Brits are not proposing to 'exclude' people - they are setting up a new system. Their argument will be that as it's a 'new' system new qualifications rules will apply - therefore they are not 'excluding' people, they are simply deciding who will qualify / be admitted to the new scheme.

As such the compatibility of the new scheme will have to be determined with various EU Directives, and they may have to negotiate an opt out from some treaty provisions, but there's no referendum on out party required.

What makes you think there will be?

RobYourBuilder

jamesbondings wrote: »

A definite no from me too, for a few reasons,

1) There are far too many Irish that this could effect both now and in the future. The UK has always been our go to place when times are tough here, although recently we see trends of going further afield for work. To think that the would be barriers for my kids getting work across the water (thus pushing them further afield to the likes of Oz, Canada and the States) would mean it would be difficult for us or our family to see them on a regular basis.

This won't effect any future Irish emigrants to the UK or those already over there. Under the Ireland Act 1948, "Irish citizens would not be treated as aliens under British nationality law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

Hence why Irish citizens resident can vote in their general elections, and they can vote in ours(but not presidential elections and referendums) and other immigrants cannot.

RobYourBuilder

Since the millennium, the vast majority of immigrants Britian received per annum were non EU. A recent study has shown that EU immigrants pay more in to the system than they take out, while non EU immigration has been a £100 billion plus net drain. I don't know why they are always harping on about EU immigrants.

Immigrants who came to live in Britain from outside Europe cost the public purse nearly £120 billion over 17 years, a new report has shown. The major academic study also found, however, that recent immigration from Europe – driven by the surge in arrivals from eastern European – gave the economy a £4.4 billion boost over the same period. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

jank

Cameron seems to be make idle threats on one hand, however there seems to be a common thread across many european countries on the immigration narrative especially with the new influx of eastern european member states.

I have said time and again that there is a gross paradox in this debate. The people who have 'suffered' most from open EU borders are those of the working class native populace who compete for unskilled or semi skilled jobs in the service industry, agriculture and low tech manufacturing. Instead of competing for these jobs with their neighbour, they now have to compete with these jobs with 10,000's of thousands of eastern europeans who are hungry for work, will do these these jobs to a good standard and have a great work ethic. Its no wonder business like to hire them. However, left leaning politicians, newspapers, sociologists, university lecturers, inner city bohemian types will never ever ever criticise this as this could/may be seen as... shhh, whisper it, Racist.....!

So they pontificate all night and day about inequality, climate change, animal rights and so on but when it actually comes to the labour market their working class man has to compete in they are absent from the debate. A shrug of the shoulders is the best you get. This is why this debate has come to the fore now. Working class communities in post industrial western Europe feel to a large extent betrayed by politicians who are seen to not act in the best interest of their communities or national state politics but in the interest of treaties and global institutions.

A perfect illustration of this is encapsulated in the now infamous tweet by Emily Thornbury who tweeted a picture of a house with two St. Georges flag hanging from the windows and a white van parked outside. Even though the house was not even in Rochester it was a blatant attempt to smear the imminent victory by UKIP in that by-election. i.e. only yobs and tradies who hang flags on their house vote for UKIP... nice!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11243726/Labour-shadow-minister-accused-of-contempt-for-working-classes-over-white-van-tweet.html

It cost her her job and has torn the Labour party in two which has basically shown up the Labour party as being out of touch, elitist, snobs and aloof of the common working man in the UK.

This issue is of course years in the making and can be directly traced back to the Labour Government of Blair and Brown who had no idea of the impacts of immigration nor the extent while also perpetuating their own brand of multiculturalism (e.g. St George flags are racist!) and anyone who is proud of Britain or England is one step away from being a fully fledged member of the EDL or BNP. I have talked to a few people regarding this new liberal phenomena of the last few years, and they would be traditionally Labour voters but it annoys them no end that one cannot even say they are proud of their country and its achievements as now that would be seen as bordering on racism.

Another person I know well, who grew up in the former Yugoslavia and who went to collage in Nottingham in the early 90's and went back to work there for a number of years in the 2000's said that the situation regarding the freedom to speak openly about topics is so bad (i.e the totalitarianism of the left regarding politically correct speech) that he felt that he had more freedom of speech in Tito's Yugoslavia in the 80's than in Labours Britain of the 2000's. That I thought was a shocking state of affairs of modern Britain and an indictment of that government and modern British politics.

Grayson

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Since the millennium, the vast majority of immigrants Britian received per annum were non EU. A recent study has shown that EU immigrants pay more in to the system than they take out, while non EU immigration has been a £100 billion plus net drain. I don't know why they are always harping on about EU immigrants.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

I think it's because a lot of EU immigrants do blue collar jobs. Plumbers, builders etc... This makes them more noticeable by certain segments of the population.

Jose Mourinho GOAT

So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

Annasopra

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

This won't effect any future Irish emigrants to the UK or those already over there. Under the Ireland Act 1948, "Irish citizens would not be treated as aliens under British nationality law."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland_Act_1948

Hence why Irish citizens resident can vote in their general elections, and they can vote in ours(but not presidential elections and referendums) and other immigrants cannot.

Right ok so basically this is xenophobic because they want to treat every other European as lesser people than Irish people.

RobYourBuilder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Right ok so basically this is xenophobic because they want to treat every other European as lesser people than Irish people.

Plenty of countries had agreements with each other that predate their EU membership.

The Nordic Union, for example. Nothing "xenophobic" about that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union

Cantremember

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

It won't affect us because of The Common Travel Area even if they make changes.

If they leave the EU over immigration they won't want to leave a backdoor for migrants.

TheBeardedLady

Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »

So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

Yep. Sounds fair. They'd get the shock of their life when they realise just how many British live outside the country within the EU. See table below (although I'm not how in up-to-date it is).


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/ (200,000 in France, 760,000 in Spain, 200,000 in Ireland).


Cameron is a smarmy wanker.

Fratton Fred

Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »

So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

Have you read the proposal? Because nowhere does it mention stopping immigration.

RobYourBuilder

Yeah, like the French and Spanish will deport retirees who invested their life savings into the move, bought property outright, who receive a monthly stipend from the UK which goes straight into their economy, who don't displace local workers and whose medical care costs are all billed back to the NHS.

Retirees are dream immigrants. The only downside is that they jack up property prices for the locals.

RobYourBuilder

Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »

So long as Brits aren't allowed to emigrate to other EU nations then I would allow this. So any Brits currently living in other EU states would be required to leave.

Britain, Ireland and Sweden opened their labour markets to new accession state nationals when every other EU 15 country didn't. Those three took the brunt of mass immigration from the A8 whilst the others kept their doors firmly shut. It's funny how eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Anyway, this proposal only mentions repatriating those who are unemployed after six months of being in Britain. Under EU directives, they could do this after 90 days. If they get a job and pay their way, which should be seen as a given, they have nothing to worry about.

Jose Mourinho GOAT

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Britain, Ireland and Sweden opened their labour markets to new accession state nationals when every other EU 15 country didn't. Those three took the brunt of mass immigration from the A8 whilst the others kept their doors firmly shut. It's funny how eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Anyway, this proposal only mentions repatriating those who are unemployed after six months of being in Britain. Under EU directives, they could do this after 90 days. If they get a job and pay their way, which should be seen as a given, they have nothing to worry about.

That's fine but then the reverse needs to also be the case for Brits in EU states.

Sclosages

Britain has a unique relationship with Ireland. I can't see that changing. Their main concern are welfare recipients I think? So they don't want to ban anyone - they can come and work if they like - but they won't receive welfare immediately. Sounds fair enough to me.

RobYourBuilder

Jose Mourinho GOAT wrote: »

That's fine but then the reverse needs to also be the case for Brits in EU states.

It already is the case.

Union citizens have a right of residence on the territory of a Member State for a period up to three months without any conditions. Family members of EU citizens who do not have the nationality of a Member State enjoy the same rights as the citizen spouse whom they accompany or join. Union citizens have a right of residence for more than three months if they

(a) are workers or self employed in the Member State,

(b) have sufficient resources not to become a burden on the State,

(c) are enrolled at a private or public established and have sickness insurance, and

(d) are family members accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

http://emn.ie/cat_search_detail.jsp?clog=4&itemID=213&item_name

The UK is planning on giving future migrants 180 days to get it together, not the 90 under the directive. Pretty generous of them!

Herb Powell

Yet more good old British arrogance.

The UK can absolutely get fuccked on this one, imo.

Sclosages

Herb Powell wrote: »

Yet more good old British arrogance.

The UK can absolutely get fuccked on this one, imo.

The UK is absolutely inundated with non-UK citizens. England particularly. I feel there is a shift of generosity and welcoming in light of recent global and local developments.

Herb Powell

Sclosages wrote: »

The UK is absolutely inundated with non-UK citizens. England particularly. I feel there is a shift of generosity and welcoming in light of recent global and local developments.

They can ultimately decide what they want, but it pisses me off that they expect to be pandered to.

Personally, I hope the whole anti-immigration crowd win. I hope they kick out every single non-British person from the country, however they choose to define that.

Then, when they realise the country is still as ****ed, if not more ****ed than it was before, we can all point and laugh at them for being a bunch of bigoted morons, and the issue can be put to bed once and for all.

PutDownArtist

Herb Powell wrote: »

a bunch of bigoted morons.

Yet your anti British diatribe is perfectly acceptable.

Herb Powell

PutDownArtist wrote: »

Yet your anti British diatribe is perfectly acceptable.

Well it's not French arrogance now is it?

I think it's fair enough to call it what it is, there's a long, well documented history of arrogance associated with Britain, where politics are concerned.

smcgiff

Some people really need to get over their British xenophobia.

TireeTerror

The UK is not in any way concerned about the travel of Irish people, its concerned about all of the welfare migrants flooding their shores resulting in more criminality and causing a burden on the welfare system.

I hate to say it, especially as a Scottish person living abroad (ROI) but multiculturalism really does not work very well. The notion that we are all one and the same, able to live in harmony after a small period of adjustment is false. What happens in reality is that the vast majority of immigrants socialise with their own kind,, continue to speak in their own languages and there is a very clear barrier keeping full integration from happening.

Entire towns are being taken over by Muslims in the UK. I am not concerned with being branded a racist, so I will speak freely. I do not like to see so many immigrants that an entire town has lost its identity. England in particular has large towns that would shock many Irish people if they were to go there and experience walking down the street first hand.

Herb Powell

smcgiff wrote: »

Some people really need to get over their British xenophobia.

lel

RobYourBuilder

It's intriguing that most who disagree with this are quick to label all Brits as "xenophobic". Then respond with "well then we should kick the British abroad out of EU countries too", in retaliation. Brits living in other EU countries have little or no say in current British politics. If you think the UK is being unfair with these proposals, why hit those who had no input in said policies? I very much doubt a Brit abroad disagrees with the FoM.

smcgiff

Herb Powell wrote: »

lel

Less English Loathing ?

RobYourBuilder

Sclosages wrote: »

The UK is absolutely inundated with non-UK citizens. England particularly.

Per capita, Ireland(15.9%) has more than the UK(12.4%).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population

Jawgap

smcgiff wrote: »

Less English Loathing ?

I thought it was London - Edinburgh - London....

LEL is the flagship event of Audax UK. It is held every four years, two years after Paris–Brest–Paris. It is part of the brevet series and is a noncompetitive endurance bicycle event.

The first LEL was in 1989, when there were 29 starters and 26 finishers, all British. For that inaugural ride, the distance was 1,300 km (810 mi), and the route included a stretch of the A68 road. Finishers of that original event are sometimes referred to as the A68 Club. The inaugural ride did not start in London, but in Doncaster, the home town of the organiser. Riders headed first north to Edinburgh and back, then south to London and back.

RobYourBuilder

TireeTerror wrote: »

The UK is not in any way concerned about the travel of Irish people

If they do decide to leave the EU, I'd expect an upsurge in the number of British citizens rediscovering their Irish roots. Six million are entitled to Irish/EU citizenship.

As many as 6 million people in the UK have an Irish grandfather or grandmother, which entitles them to claim citizenship in the Republic. The same generous regulations have traditionally allowed the Irish football team to draw on a wide reserve of talent.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/13/britishidentity.travelnews

Del.Monte

TireeTerror wrote: »

The UK is not in any way concerned about the travel of Irish people, its concerned about all of the welfare migrants flooding their shores resulting in more criminality and causing a burden on the welfare system.

I hate to say it, especially as a Scottish person living abroad (ROI) but multiculturalism really does not work very well. The notion that we are all one and the same, able to live in harmony after a small period of adjustment is false. What happens in reality is that the vast majority of immigrants socialise with their own kind,, continue to speak in their own languages and there is a very clear barrier keeping full integration from happening.

Entire towns are being taken over by Muslims in the UK. I am not concerned with being branded a racist, so I will speak freely. I do not like to see so many immigrants that an entire town has lost its identity. England in particular has large towns that would shock many Irish people if they were to go there and experience walking down the street first hand.

Much better to bury your head in the sand like our great leaders. Ireland is different, Ireland is neutral, Ireland has no colonial past (other than being a colony), and it's not pc to say that we are building up a huge 'multi-cultural' problem for the future. Drugs were a problem that were ignored as far back as the 1970s and look where burying our heads in the sand got us on that one....

The Diabolical Monocle

Where do the 1,000,000+ British people living in Spain feature in all this ?

Will they be put in a different category.

Not just because they're British of course, but because....well ... well ...because drink your tea.

screamer

England colonised various countries in the world in the oldern days, taking much of the wealth and riches of those countries. The way I see it, is that now, the pigeons are coming home to roost.....

RobYourBuilder

Del.Monte wrote: »

Much better to bury your head in the sand like our great leaders. Ireland is different, Ireland is neutral, Ireland has no colonial past (other than being a colony), and it's not pc to say that we are building up a huge 'multi-cultural' problem for the future. Drugs were a problem that were ignored as far back as the 1970s and look where burying our heads in the sand got us on that one....

Once the middle and upper classes get their toot, they don't care about the affects drug dealing has on working class areas. Ditto with immigration. They get an abundance of cheap labour, renters, restaurants, escorts to ride and help around the house. Practice a few words of Portuguese with the Brazilian nanny and brag to your mates about how multicultural they are. Working class areas are left to deal with the social costs.

RobYourBuilder

screamer wrote: »

England colonised various countries in the world in the oldern days, taking much of the wealth and riches of those countries. The way I see it, is that now, the pigeons are coming home to roost.....

I hate posting videos, but this one is worth a gander and succinctly nullifies that oft made point.

Jawgap

screamer wrote: »

England colonised various countries in the world in the oldern days, taking much of the wealth and riches of those countries. The way I see it, is that now, the pigeons are coming home to roost.....

to be honest - those pigeons came home to roost during the 'retreat from Empire' in the 50s and 60s. The pigeons have roosted and had kids and grandkids.

This proposal is about dealing with EU migrants from eastern Europe and, to a greater degree, from southern Europe.

Cienciano

TireeTerror wrote: »

Entire towns are being taken over by Muslims in the UK. I am not concerned with being branded a racist, so I will speak freely. I do not like to see so many immigrants that an entire town has lost its identity. England in particular has large towns that would shock many Irish people if they were to go there and experience walking down the street first hand.

That's to do with Britains colonial past, nothing to do with the EU.