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Would the Army fight it's own people?

1356

Comments

  • #62
    Xios
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

    Or, in Xios's case, that a nicked artery cannot cause death.
    What? In the situation OP describes, a Nicked Artery will most certainly be death, who's gonna be able to help you? They'll just get shot too.

    http://www.skepticaljuror.com/2012/04/cases-involving-severed-carotid_08.html
    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Even moreso the case if there are trained medics nearby.
    In Ireland the shooting of a rioter would definitely get a whole lot of attention very quickly and would change a lot of attitides, possibly saving more lives than 1.

    Thats pretty much the contention of my first post.

    If you disagree with the logic, well ... perhaps you'd have a better solution.

    Em, That exact same situation happened in Ukraine last year, All it did was enrage the protestors who dug in even more, and started arming themselves. There was much much more bloodshed on both sides, protestors and police.


  • #63
    braddun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭braddun


    yes


  • #64
    Frosty McSnowballs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,396 ✭✭✭Frosty McSnowballs


    While your logic is sound DB, if such a situation arose, using ball ammunition from an assault rifle to wound as a warning is tricky at best.

    The use of a handgun for a less than lethal shot in close proximity to a "rioter" would be the best option. The phrase "low and at the legs" is a common term but really what happens after the round leaves the barrel is another story.

    You could take aim for a less than lethal shot with the best intentions but a lot can go wrong. Let's hope we never need to actually find out here.


  • #65
    mcko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭mcko


    If you looked at Chief of Staff's Directive No 6 you would see what the army can and cannot do, shooting unarmed civilians is not one of them, at worst soldiers would be deployed in public order kit.


  • #66
    davetherave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭davetherave


    mcko wrote: »
    If you looked at Chief of Staff's Directive No 6 you would see what the army can and cannot do, shooting unarmed civilians is not one of them, at worst soldiers would be deployed in public order kit.

    Spot on, but as I'm sure you are aware COD6 is restricted so careful now... :)


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  • #67
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Xios wrote: »
    What? In the situation OP describes, a Nicked Artery will most certainly be death, who's gonna be able to help you? They'll just get shot too.

    http://www.skepticaljuror.com/2012/04/cases-involving-severed-carotid_08.html



    Em, That exact same situation happened in Ukraine last year, All it did was enrage the protestors who dug in even more, and started arming themselves. There was much much more bloodshed on both sides, protestors and police.


    Well if it causes a death it causes a death, the idea is to try to wound the rioter.
    Live or die the word gets out in either circumstance .... people take notice, weigh the gamble of some small gain vs possible death - opportunism stops, more calm less chaos, a greater number of possible deaths prevented. At the cost of the possible death of 1 individual.

    A future riot in Ireland will not necessarily be a repetition of a past riot in Ukraine. There is no overarching rule along the lines you are proposing, that if you shoot a rioter the riot will get bigger.


  • #68
    Frosty McSnowballs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,396 ✭✭✭Frosty McSnowballs


    davetherave wrote: »
    Spot on, but as I'm sure you are aware COD6 is restricted so careful now... :)

    What have 6 fish got to do with anything?

    <_<


  • #69
    AllGunsBlazing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭AllGunsBlazing


    Soldiers maintaining order over the peasantry via the barrel of a gun? Yeah, sounds like your typical FG wet dream tbf.


  • #70
    Xios
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Well if it causes a death it causes a death, the idea is to try to wound the rioter.
    Live or die the word gets out in either circumstance .... people take notice, weigh the gamble of some small gain vs possible death - opportunism stops, more calm less chaos, a greater number of possible deaths prevented. At the cost of the possible death of 1 individual.

    Please show me an example of where this has worked. Where the Authorities fired live ammo on unarmed angry protesters that dissolved the situation.


  • #71
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Xios wrote: »
    Please show me an example of where this has worked. Where the Authorities fired live ammo on unarmed angry protesters that dissolved the situation.

    Google is your friend.


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  • #72
    Xios
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Google is your friend.

    So you don't have one...


  • #73
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Xios wrote: »
    So you don't have one...

    Nor do I need one.

    Tralee town will play Madrid, I put it to you that Madrid will win.

    Oh wait no example.


    What do you propose and where is your link.


  • #74
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    Well if it causes a death it causes a death, the idea is to try to wound the rioter.
    Live or die the word gets out in either circumstance .... people take notice, weigh the gamble of some small gain vs possible death - opportunism stops, more calm less chaos, a greater number of possible deaths prevented. At the cost of the possible death of 1 individual.

    A future riot in Ireland will not necessarily be a repetition of a past riot in Ukraine. There is no overarching rule along the lines you are proposing, that if you shoot a rioter the riot will get bigger.

    A 5.56mm round Fires a 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that tumbles on impact - that's why, in the real world, when someone gets hit by one they don't just get a bit of red in their vision before getting up 5 seconds later - they get dead, if not from the initial wound then from the shock and trauma caused by the catastrophic blood loss.


  • #75
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Jawgap wrote: »
    A 5.56mm round Fires a 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that tumbles on impact - that's why, in the real world, when someone gets hit by one they don't just get a bit of red in their vision before getting up 5 seconds later - they get dead, if not from the initial wound then from the shock and trauma caused by the catastrophic blood loss.

    What really ????

    Jaysus lads.

    100% lethal. No known survivors. Extremity wound = certain death.


  • #76
    BBDBB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭BBDBB


    I believe they would if ordered to do so

    how many they would hit if ordered to fire would be considerably less


  • #77
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    It would be like Black Hawk Down if they started firing at people in certain estates in Dublin


  • #78
    Xios
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    Jawgap wrote: »
    A 5.56mm round Fires a 62-grain semi-armor piercing projectile at an initial velocity of 3,050 fps (924 mps). The projectile contains a 10-grain .182 caliber hardened steel penetrator that tumbles on impact - that's why, in the real world, when someone gets hit by one they don't just get a bit of red in their vision before getting up 5 seconds later - they get dead, if not from the initial wound then from the shock and trauma caused by the catastrophic blood loss.

    Exactly. People who have been shot may live, but they can be completely ****ed up from it. A rifle round will shatter bone and tear right through a person.

    Look up the videos of protesters getting shot in Ukraine, In Kiev, Donetsk, Mariupol, Odessa. The all get completely ****ed up, even by richochets.

    Getting shot is not like a friggin action movie where you get a nick on the shoulder and walk it off. Your muscles get torn to shreds, your boned can be completely shattered, getting a rifle shot in the arm can or leg could result in an amputation.


  • #79
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr7dpEDNNC4


  • #80
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/49247-why-you-dont-want-get-shot-5-56mm-warning-graphic.html

    D'OH !!


  • #81
    Xios
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,073 ✭✭✭Xios


    The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/49247-why-you-dont-want-get-shot-5-56mm-warning-graphic.html

    D'OH !!

    Yeah, he ain't gonna be walking properly again.


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  • #82
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Xios wrote: »
    On the firing ranges in the defence forces, I believe there's an armed marshal behind the guys firing while training, just in case one of them snaps and decides to go 'full metal jacket' and shoot his colleagues.

    This is brilliant stuff :D

    Go on funny thread, amuse me further.


  • #83
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    Xios wrote: »
    Yeah, he ain't gonna be walking properly again.

    Lucky to survive.


  • #84
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Aliyah Substantial Headphone wrote: »
    This is brilliant stuff :D

    Go on funny thread, amuse me further.


    Yes, I also chuckled, as a powder monkey, I to have seen the nco ready to shoot the company.....


  • #85
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Yes, I also chuckled

    You'd wonder what goes on inside peoples heads.


  • #86
    mcko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭mcko


    I think Officers carry swords on the
    range to stop people killing their comrades.


  • #87
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    mcko wrote: »
    I think Officers carry swords on the
    range to stop people killing their comrades.


    If by sword you mean: cup of tea, sitting in the truck as its cold outside.


  • #88
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    mcko wrote: »
    I think Officers carry swords on the
    range to stop people killing their comrades.

    The swords are to kill their down time with a bit of fencing.. Nothing cheers up a gentleman better than a good ol' sword fight ~ or maybe pistols at dawn.


  • #89
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    super_furry wrote: »
    Soldiers are trained killers. They get their orders and they obey, I have no problem believing they'd fire on Irish people.


    To protect a bank? i think not

    Cross that line.... its open season.

    Words of a wiser man spring to mind...

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win


  • #90
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Aliyah Substantial Headphone wrote: »
    The swords are to kill their down time with a bit of fencing.. Nothing cheers up a gentleman better than a good ol' sword fight ~ or maybe pistols at dawn.

    I thought the big knives were for spread de butter........and for giving anyone who is a bit slow a playful slap on the ar$e with the flat of the sabre?


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  • #91
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I thought the big knives were for spread de butter........and for giving anyone who is a bit slow a playful slap on the ar$e with the flat of the sabre?

    Well thats as accurate as some of the other bull**** fantasy rubbish which came up in this thread.


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