Would the Army fight it's own people?

FionnK86

Simon Coveney announced that soldiers from the Defence Forces might be required to provide armed protection for all major Irish banks if a cash shortage was triggered, back in 2011.

Read article below:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/get-army-ready-to-protect-banks-central-banks-warning-to-taoiseach-during-crisis-30782109.html

In the situation this occurred, do you believe that Irish troops would fire on its own citizens?

From my own experience living near the Curragh Camp is that the soldiers would never fire on Irish citizens, and would refuse even if ordered to do so.

nelly17

I don't for a second believe they ever would.

Augmerson

Of course they would.

iDave

Armies have fired on their own citizens plenty of times throughout history.

keithclancy

My understanding is that the Gardai are in charge of security within the state.

For the Army to have authority some sort of Emergency would have to be declared.

Although they did have them running the Prisons some years back and they do those escort things so I guess they must have bullets in the guns unlike when they are on UN Peacekeeping missions.

jimgoose

They might as well. Every other branch of the Civil Service does.

whiskeyman

They would have given them no jaysus bullets...

Xios

Soldiers are people too. It takes a lot of time to convince a soldier to go about killing people. Lots of propaganda, lots of dehumanization and in the past, soldiers have needed to be 'blooded' or introduced to the realities of war.

Irish soldiers are thought morals, are very well trained and spend a lot of time operating in civilian areas with live weapons. All the cash escorts are fully armed.

Even on peace-keeping missions the Irish have shown extra-normal amounts of restraint. It's a noteworthy event when Irish soldiers return fire, like recently in Syria.

The Irish peacekeepers were attacked by Syrian rebels on 29 November 2013. The Irish convoy came under small arms fire and a Mowag APC subsequently struck a land mine damaging the vehicle when driving out of the attack, the Irish returned fire with 12.7mm heavy machine guns mounted on their vehicles before the rebels retreated.[37]

whiskeyman

Xios wrote: »

Even on peace-keeping missions the Irish have shown extra-normal amounts of restraint. It's a noteworthy event when Irish soldiers return fire, like recently in Syria.

Probably because whenever they are ordered to engage or are fired upon, they can't hear it...

Xios

iDave wrote: »

Armies have fired on their own citizens plenty of times throughout history.

The difference is that Ireland is small nation, the Defence forces are very integrated with our community. You need to bring in soldiers from outside the community in order for them to attack their citizens.

Just like this time last year in Kiev, Ukraine, They needed to bring in the 'Berkut' from eastern/southern Ukraine to handle the crowds, because the local police were not willing to be violent against them.

Jawgap

Yes, I think they would, but only if the situation was extremely critical, plenty of warnings had been issued, non-lethal means (baton rounds and bean bags) had been tried and warning shots fired.

Frankly, if it got to the stage where warning shots from assault rifles were being fired over people's heads I reckon the crowd would disperse pretty quickly!

A soldier might feel compelled to use deadly force if he / she felt they, or a colleague, were in mortal danger - for example surrounded, with the crowd trying to get their weapons - again, I couldn't see a situation like that developing on a popular level here, although there are certain 'constituencies' with the political structures of the country who would no doubt fancy their chances.

The_Valeyard

Well how is paying them?

Maybe in other countries, but if things were that bad, the defence forces would fend for themselves.

If the Army is called upon to maintain order, that's what they'll do. That's not quite the same thing as 'fighting' their own people, it's a civil order situation, not combat.

WomanSkirtFan8

FionnK86 wrote: »

Simon Coveney announced that soldiers from the Defence Forces might be required to provide armed protection for all major Irish banks if a cash shortage was triggered, back in 2011.

Read article below:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/get-army-ready-to-protect-banks-central-banks-warning-to-taoiseach-during-crisis-30782109.html

In the situation this occurred, do you believe that Irish troops would fire on its own citizens?

From my own experience living near the Curragh Camp is that the soldiers would never fire on Irish citizens, and would refuse even if ordered to do so.

I would tend to agree. They're usually only called on to provide armed protection to cash deliveries to banks and so forth so I couldn't ever see this situation happening.

arybvtcw0eolkf

keithclancy wrote: »

Although they did have them running the Prisons some years back and they do those escort things so I guess they must have bullets in the guns unlike when they are on UN Peacekeeping missions.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

:pac:

mad muffin

I would say they would. The more they citizens they kill, the more money would be left for them.

I wouldn't be surprised if they implemented a purge.

keithclancy

whiskeyman wrote: »

They would have given them no jaysus bullets...

Made the front page.

What does it say?

"Dublin Detective Riddled With Bullets".

"Riddled"? Riddled?

Why are you riddling people?

Ten bullets, when the one would do?

To make sure he died.

Lads, try and remember they don't grow on trees.

- What don't they grow on? - Trees.

Get out.

No offence OP, but what kind of a fantasy world are you living in? "The army" is not one collective conscience that instinctively knows what is and isn't right. They, or rather individual members of it, will open fire in a heartbeat if ordered to.

The defence forces have long been used as private security for the banks as you can plainly see with your own two eyes on the public streets around any larger branches that act as clearing houses. In fact I even remember the army being used as scabs and strike breakers (sorry, but call a spade a spade and that is exactly what they did) many many years ago when the local authority employed bin collectors went on strike. Not saying working as a scab is akin to pulling the trigger on someone, just making the point that the army isn't always what you might think traditionally defines an army in Ireland.

discus

Xios wrote: »

Soldiers are people too. It takes a lot of time to convince a soldier to go about killing people. Lots of propaganda, lots of dehumanization and in the past, soldiers have needed to be 'blooded' or introduced to the realities of war.

Irish soldiers are thought morals, are very well trained and spend a lot of time operating in civilian areas with live weapons. All the cash escorts are fully armed.

Even on peace-keeping missions the Irish have shown extra-normal amounts of restraint. It's a noteworthy event when Irish soldiers return fire, like recently in Syria.

Such bull****. You don't need to 'dehumanise' humans to make them kill people, as a species we are more than capable of killing people with no hesitation.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

No offence OP, but what kind of a fantasy world are you living in? "The army" is not one collective conscience that instinctively knows what is and isn't right. They, or rather individual members of it, will open fire in a heartbeat if ordered to.

The defence forces have long been used as private security for the banks as you can plainly see with your own two eyes on the public streets around any larger branches that act as clearing houses. In fact I even remember the army being used as scabs and strike breakers (sorry, but call a spade a spade and that is exactly what they did) many many years ago when the local authority employed bin collectors went on strike. Not saying working as a scab is akin to pulling the trigger on someone, just making the point that the army isn't always what you might think traditionally defines an army in Ireland.

Yes, because letting waste pile up in the streets has always been a good idea :rolleyes:

In fact, when the Army have been called in as 'strike breakers' (a term you clearly don't understand, from the way you've used it) it's been to ensure that those most basic of public service provisions we rely on e.g. waste collection continue to function at a minimum level to prevent an even greater harm being caused e.g. outbreaks of vector-borne disease. Perhaps visit a country that doesn't practice even the minimal level of waste collection / disposal provided by the Army before deciding who the villains of that particular dispute were?

super_furry

Soldiers are trained killers. They get their orders and they obey, I have no problem believing they'd fire on Irish people.

conorhal

nelly17 wrote: »

I don't for a second believe they ever would.

Don't know about that, our history is replete with examples of the Irish effin' each other over for a shilling. Dublin Castle and the RIC were mostly staffed by Irish people. When you look at the attempts to demonize protest in this country it's hard to believe that they wouldn't, just as I don't for a second doubt that the likes of Lord Coveney would relish giving the order. Fortunately for them and us we are more accustomed to obedience then rioting.

discus

super_furry wrote: »

Soldiers are trained killers. They get their orders and they obey, I have no problem believing they'd fire on Irish people.

Flipping heck, you've no idea what you're talking about.

Xios

discus wrote: »

Such bull****. You don't need to 'dehumanise' humans to make them kill people, as a species we are more than capable of killing people with no hesitation.

You've been watching too many hollywood movies.

http://www.historynet.com/men-against-fire-how-many-soldiers-actually-fired-their-weapons-at-the-enemy-during-the-vietnam-war.htm

FURET

Soldiers are generally the type of people who have no problem following orders.

keithclancy

FURET wrote: »

Soldiers are generally the type of people who have no problem following orders.

I don't think they would rape someone if ordered to.

Similarly I don't think they would kill someone if it was not right within their moral compass.

Phoebas

FionnK86 wrote: »

Simon Coveney announced that soldiers from the Defence Forces might be required to provide armed protection for all major Irish banks if a cash shortage was triggered, back in 2011.

Read article below:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/get-army-ready-to-protect-banks-central-banks-warning-to-taoiseach-during-crisis-30782109.html

In the situation this occurred, do you believe that Irish troops would fire on its own citizens?

From my own experience living near the Curragh Camp is that the soldiers would never fire on Irish citizens, and would refuse even if ordered to do so.

They'd be a bit useless if they were only to provide cash in transit protection from foreign citizens.

My name is URL

Whatever about how the army would react to such a scenario, does anyone else think it's kind of pathetic that the best defence of Kenny that Coveney can muster up is that he didn't decide to have the army prevent people from withdrawing their own money from the institutions that bankrupted the country?

It seems as if they think we should be grateful for that. Gee, thanks lads; for not turning the armed forces against Irish citizens in order to protect failed banks. Yizzer some men!

HamsterFace

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever about how the army would react to such a scenario, does anyone else think it's kind of pathetic that the best defence of Kenny that Coveney can muster up is that he didn't decide to have the army prevent people from withdrawing their own money from the institutions that bankrupted the country?

It seems as if they think we should be grateful for that. Gee, thanks lads; for not turning the armed forces against Irish citizens in order to protect failed banks. Yizzer some men!

Oh give it a rest

Phoebas

My name is URL wrote: »

Whatever about how the army would react to such a scenario, does anyone else think it's kind of pathetic that the best defence of Kenny that Coveney can muster up is that he didn't decide to have the army prevent people from withdrawing their own money from the institutions that bankrupted the country?

It seems as if they think we should be grateful for that. Gee, thanks lads; for not turning the armed forces against Irish citizens in order to protect failed banks. Yizzer some men!

It does illustrate the massive turnaround in the economy over a few short years, from making plans for having the army deployed on the streets back to a much stabilised economy.

I don't expect any credit to go to Kenny & Co for that 'though.

Highflyer13

Such absolute nonsense from FG again. They are brutal at this media stuff.

The Diabolical Monocle

FionnK86 wrote: »

Simon Coveney announced that soldiers from the Defence Forces might be required to provide armed protection for all major Irish banks if a cash shortage was triggered, back in 2011.

Read article below:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/get-army-ready-to-protect-banks-central-banks-warning-to-taoiseach-during-crisis-30782109.html

In the situation this occurred, do you believe that Irish troops would fire on its own citizens?

From my own experience living near the Curragh Camp is that the soldiers would never fire on Irish citizens, and would refuse even if ordered to do so.

I'd certainly want them to beat some asses anyway if there was a run on the banks.

If a run catches hold thats my meager savings gone.

As for firing, after a run there'd be rioting and deaths anyway, so probably better to choose the lesser evil, try for a non lethal shot to get the word out and have medics ready and nearby.

Frosty McSnowballs

Aliyah Substantial Headphone wrote: »

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

:pac:

Jaysis, imagine how much lighter the kit would be without the rounds! Less hassle too :pac:

Deleted User wrote: »

No offence OP, but what kind of a fantasy world are you living in? "The army" is not one collective conscience that instinctively knows what is and isn't right. They, or rather individual members of it, will open fire in a heartbeat if ordered to

No offence, eh poster but what kind of fantasy world are you living in? Individual members will always use their own judgement if a situation was to arise. They won't just open fire in a heartbeat upon receiving an order to. There are quite stringent and black and white rules to this stuff. You will always have to justify your own actions. The excuse of "I was ordered to" is not sufficient.

The only event where that would happen is if you are being actively engaged and there are zero options. It's hard to see that it would ever come to that.

Deleted User wrote: »

The defence forces have long been used as private security for the banks

Yeah that's also not correct. The protection of large sums of cash shouldn't need to be explained. It's not for the banks benefit either.

super_furry wrote: »

Soldiers are trained killers. They get their orders and they obey, I have no problem believing they'd fire on Irish people.

You are mental

FURET wrote: »

Soldiers are generally the type of people who have no problem following orders.

'Splain please.

Jawgap

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

I'd certainly want them to beat some asses anyway if there was a run on the banks.

If a run catches hold thats my meager savings gone.

As for firing, after a run there'd be rioting and deaths anyway, so probably better to choose the lesser evil, try for a non lethal shot to get the word out and have medics ready and nearby.

What film is this again?

Frosty McSnowballs

Jawgap wrote: »

What film is this again?

People only die with a head shot.

Jawgap

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

People only die with a head shot.

do they not get to re-spawn back down the street?

csallmighty

The army should be called in to give these black friday people a beating.

Frosty McSnowballs

Jawgap wrote: »

do they not get to re-spawn back down the street?

Ah fcuk, I keep forgetting about that! Sneaky beggars!

Xios

The lack of education/knowledge in this thread is appalling.

Larbre34

The absolute pits of negative messaging from FG again.

"You need us"

"You have no idea how bad it was"

"If you think we're bad, wait until you get the alternative"


To every party I would say; ye underestimated the intelligence, the courage and the discernment of the Irish electorate before. Don't ever make that mistake again.

And no, the Army would not have "fought" it own people, it would have defended the buildings it was ordered to from civil disorder, probably using non-lethal weapons and defensive barriers. Even on the worst day of the last 6 years, I doubt even the most pessimistic envisaged live firing against protestors in the streets.

The Diabolical Monocle

Jawgap wrote: »

What film is this again?

The one where not every gunshot results in a death.


Staring 50cent and some clueless weasel.

Jawgap

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

The one where not every gunshot results in a death.


Staring 50cent and some clueless weasel.

Not every gunshot results in a death, it's the "try for a non lethal shot" statement you made that made me lol!

How does that work then......

Army are surrounding the Central Bank and a sergeant calmly reports to the officer in charge "The sentries report citizens to the south west. FFFhousands of 'em."

At which point the officer barks to the rest of the men "At one hundred yards, volley fire present! Aim........to nick them.........FIRE!......
Volley by ranks! First rank, FIRE! Second rank, FIRE! Third rank, FIRE!" etc etc

jimgoose

Jawgap wrote: »

Not every gunshot results in a death, it's the "try for a non lethal shot" statement you made that made me lol!

How does that work then......

Army are surrounding the Central Bank and a sergeant calmly reports to the officer in charge "The sentries report citizens to the south west. FFFhousands of 'em."

At which point the officer barks to the rest of the men "At one hundred yards, volley fire present! Aim........to nick them.........FIRE!......
Volley by ranks! First rank, FIRE! Second rank, FIRE! Third rank, FIRE!" etc etc

"'Eathens every bloody where, sah!!" :pac::pac::pac:

corner of hells

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Jaysis, imagine how much lighter the kit would be without the rounds! Less hassle too :pac:



No offence, eh poster but what kind of fantasy world are you living in? Individual members will always use their own judgement if a situation was to arise. They won't just open fire in a heartbeat upon receiving an order to. There are quite stringent and black and white rules to this stuff. You will always have to justify your own actions. The excuse of "I was ordered to" is not sufficient.

The only event where that would happen is if you are being actively engaged and there are zero options. It's hard to see that it would ever come to that.



Yeah that's also not correct. The protection of large sums of cash shouldn't need to be explained. It's not for the banks benefit either.



You are mental



'Splain please.

As mister pants , you,re ruining the thread , I want someone to talk.about lasers and unicorns .

diomed

This sounds like some organisation somewhere is running out of funds.

Xios

corner of hells wrote: »

As mister pants , you,re ruining the thread , I want someone to talk.about lasers and unicorns .

Those'll be in the 2016 budget.

Frosty McSnowballs

corner of hells wrote: »

As mister pants , you,re ruining the thread , I want someone to talk.about lasers and unicorns .

Zombie unicorns with plasma lasers? Yeah, what Xios said :P

The Diabolical Monocle

Jawgap wrote: »

Not every gunshot results in a death, it's the "try for a non lethal shot" statement you made that made me lol!

How does that work then......

Army are surrounding the Central Bank and a sergeant calmly reports to the officer in charge "The sentries report citizens to the south west. FFFhousands of 'em."

At which point the officer barks to the rest of the men "At one hundred yards, volley fire present! Aim........to nick them.........FIRE!......
Volley by ranks! First rank, FIRE! Second rank, FIRE! Third rank, FIRE!" etc etc

Thats just one fictional scenario you have in your mind.

A soldier targeting and shooting a rioter, or looter for example, so as not to kill, and not killing them ... well see thats actually happened back here in reality.

Jawgap

jimgoose wrote: »

"'Eathens every bloody where, sah!!" :pac::pac::pac:

Apparently, anti-austerity protestors can run, RRRRUN, 50 miles and fight a battle at the end of it.

jimgoose

Jawgap wrote: »

Apparently, anti-austerity protestors can run, RRRRUN, 50 miles and fight a battle at the end of it.

"The Swallows have won!!"

Jawgap

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Thats just one fictional scenario you have in your mind.

A soldier targeting and shooting a rioter, or looter for example, so as not to kill, and not killing them ... well see thats actually happened back here in reality.

So Soldier 'A' takes aim in an urban environment and sends a 5.56mm at an unprotected civvy, probably moving erratically - and you reckon when then round arrives it will just knock the guy or girl off his feet !!! Give them a flesh wound???

As I said......LOL.

If a soldier shoots at you and you're still moving after the round arrives you're either lucky or they were a crap aim.