Anyone had a MIC upgrade on the ESB network?

Andy From Sligo · 26-11-2014 8:46pm #1

Just wondering has anyone with a residential property ever had a MIC upgrade on their property and what was involved ... and if they dont mind divulging of course, how much did it cost? - do the ESB have to install new overhead cables or poles or transformers or whatever?

slimjimmc · 26-11-2014 9:13pm

Not a consumer issue. Moved to Electrical

Par1 · 26-11-2014 10:00pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Just wondering has anyone with a residential property ever had a MIC upgrade on their property and what was involved ... and if they dont mind divulging of course, how much did it cost? - do the ESB have to install new overhead cables or poles or transformers or whatever?

You would need to decide what MIC you require then assess the situation. You will also need to know weather your existing supply is overhead or underground. MIC upgrades can get tricky in domestic situations if you require over 80amps supply

Andy From Sligo · 26-11-2014 10:17pm

slimjimmc wrote: »

Not a consumer issue. Moved to Electrical

Soz

Andy From Sligo · 26-11-2014 10:31pm

Par1 wrote: »

You would need to decide what MIC you require then assess the situation. You will also need to know weather your existing supply is overhead or underground. MIC upgrades can get tricky in domestic situations if you require over 80amps supply

hmm this is where it gets confusing, I dont know what MIC I require, all I know in plain english is that when I put the 8KW instant shower on the main incadescent lights dim a lot and the voltage goes from 238volt to 230volt so ESB said i would need to upgrade the MIC - the fuseboard has 80a mains switch - the electricity lines are overhead to the house - i wouldnt think I need over 80A even though got 8kw shower and electric oven and electric hob, and its a old bungalow with not a lot of electrical sockets, well no-where near as many sockets as these new properties

26-11-2014 11:26pm

I don't see anything in the above post that suggests that the MIC should be any larger than that of the average home.
Get an electrician to survey and advise.

Andy From Sligo · 26-11-2014 11:40pm

at 11pm at night voltage starts off at 235vac and goes down to 227vac when 8kw shower is on, thats only a difference of 8vac so i wonder why the lights dim so much? - and shouldnt the voltage stabilise at the same voltage say at 235v even when the shower is on or is it normal for the voltage to drop by 8volts AC ? when an 8kw shower is turned on?

braddun · 26-11-2014 11:46pm

you could just take off one of the heaters coils ,disconnect 1 wire ,tape it off,and the neutral in the power shower ,which would cut power in half

26-11-2014 11:48pm

Rural area? If so I wouldn't be surprised.

A few thoughts:
1) 230 volts is an average.
2) I would expect a volt drop when an 8kW load is switched on.
3) 227 volts should not be a problem for any device designed to work on 230 volts

ted1 · 26-11-2014 11:55pm

Your MIC is just a contracted rate, domestic MIC is 12KW, but that's irrelevant as the MIC is not an issue.

evosteo · 27-11-2014 12:17am

thats a major expense for a minor inconvenience. lights dimming when an electric shower is in use is not a strange occurrence. it would be no harm to get an electrician to give the board a quick once over to check connections and make sure the distribution is correct

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 12:20am

braddun wrote: »

you could just take off one of the heaters coils ,disconnect 1 wire ,tape it off,and the neutral in the power shower ,which would cut power in half

would 4kw heat up the water ok still? - its a pumped instant shower. Its got a power knob on the outside of th shower casing (cold,low,med,high) so i suppose if i put the knob to low maybe that will cut it down to 4KW, might try that next time, although pressure of shower will go down wont it because water will have to pass through chamber slower to heat up?

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 12:27am

2011 wrote: »

Rural area? If so I wouldn't be surprised.

yep small village - our previous house which was just a mile up the road, had 2 9kw pumped showers (going through a relay thing on the consumer board so you could only use one shower at a time) but the lights in the house didnt dim when you put the shower on - mind you our pevious house was built in 2002 and this house we are in was built in the 1970's i think, even though at some stage the wiring has been updated and the consumer board changed at some time (Hager with breakers and 80a mains RCD switch)

Kevin McCloud · 27-11-2014 12:30am

How many poles away is your transformer andy?

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 12:30am

evosteo wrote: »

thats a major expense for a minor inconvenience. lights dimming when an electric shower is in use is not a strange occurrence. it would be no harm to get an electrician to give the board a quick once over to check connections and make sure the distribution is correct

well thats what the ESB reply was to upgrade the MIC to the house and sent me a form by email to fill in and get a quote - what do they actually do when they up the MCU to a house? - do they put some kind of transformer on the pole or something? or do they just up the voltage on the overhead lines to the house is it?

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 12:33am

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

How many poles away is your transformer andy?

oh blimey , i dont know really i cannot even see a transformer on the poles that i can see. The transformer is the big round grey metal thing isnt it on the pole just under the overhead wires isnt it?

Kevin McCloud · 27-11-2014 12:34am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

The transformer is the big round grey metal thing isnt it on the pole just under the overhead wires isnt it?

Yea that would be it.

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 12:36am

Sounds more like an old fuse board with small mains tails

braddun · 27-11-2014 12:40am

you open up the shower and take 2 leads off 1 heater

turn off power first

and use electrical tape to cover the 2 prongs

you should have lots of hot water

you will only use about 3.5kw

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 12:45am

Can you send in a pic of the fuseboard? ESB are obligated to keep the supply to within 4% of 230v so 9.2 v below 230 v would be the limit? And please don't go messing with the shower��

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 12:46am

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Yea that would be it.

oh right, well one day i traced the overhead wires from the outside meter box, it must go under a bit of path, then there is a pole opposite the meter box, and theres not a transformer on that pole, then it goes to another 2 poles in a field and they havent got any transformers on them - then the overhead cables go into a housing estate. Its looks as through the arrangement that we are last on the line, maybe thats why we havent got clean electrics maybe some houses before us are having an affect if we are last in line maybe? - the poles i can see in the fields have got moss growing up them nearly to the top where the cables are on the galvanised brackets. Are those overhead cables PVC covered or bare copper would you think? - just have visions one day of the damp/wet moss growing on them cables and metal bracket and shortin them out one day if they are bare cables and not pvc covered.

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 1:01am

seaniefr wrote: »

Can you send in a pic of the fuseboard? ESB are obligated to keep the supply to within 4% of 230v so 9.2 v below 230 v would be the limit? And please don't go messing with the shower��

Heres pic of board i took in june when we moved in if you can see it - it looks like its been updated recently enough:

And here is a picture of the meter - the tails look like its 45a Twin&Earth cable to me running from the meter to the consumer board:

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 1:35am

Mains cable in that pic could possibly be 10sq? Harder to tell with the old stuff.Earth wire too small unless there is another earth wire running direct to the earth rod. No RCBO on shower supply possibly. You really do need an electrician to have a good look at it. Your mains t&e possibly might not be big enough but you really to get it checked. Board possibly late 80's? I haven't seen red and black t&e in years! Someone else here might have a better idea.

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 1:51am

seaniefr wrote: »

Mains cable in that pic could possibly be 10sq? Harder to tell with the old stuff.Earth wire too small unless there is another earth wire running direct to the earth rod. No RCBO on shower supply possibly. You really do need an electrician to have a good look at it. Your mains t&e possibly might not be big enough but you really to get it checked. Board possibly late 80's? I haven't seen red and black t&e in years! Someone else here might have a better idea.

thanks for the info. Must have a look and see if theres an earth rod on the premises then and a earth wire running from it to the consumer box. no it dont look like a RCBO on the shower circuit, just a MCB. - could ask the landlady to get an electrician in i suppose, although not looking forward to it dont want to be pain in the backside tennant, also this house was supposed to have had an electrical test and earth compliance test before we moved into the place in June to comply with PRTB and it passed, so she most probably wont be happy about getting in an electrician.

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 8:41am

Maybe that new housing estate you mentioned in a previous post nearby is taking more from the supply than the ESB intended. Is there full occupancy there? Sounds like the ESB need to upgrade! Also quite possible regarding the shower RCBO that it might be along with the water heater have been put under the socket 'ELCB'

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 5:18pm

not too worried about lights dimming when something heavy put on, more worried about what it might do to electronic stuff like TV, computers ect... although I do have them plugged into surge/spike sockets

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 5:40pm

seaniefr wrote: »

....Also quite possible regarding the shower RCBO that it might be along with the water heater have been put under the socket 'ELCB'

your right Sean - shower is going through the 63A RCD/ELCB just switched off the RCD and it killed the power to the shower - so that should mean it doesnt need an RCBO then after all doesnt it?

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 6:22pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

not too worried about lights dimming when something heavy put on, more worried about what it might do to electronic stuff like TV, computers ect... although I do have them plugged into surge/spike sockets

You probably will not get any action from the ESB unless the supply voltage drops below 220.8 volts

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 6:24pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

your right Sean - shower is going through the 63A RCD/ELCB just switched off the RCD and it killed the power to the shower - so that should mean it doesnt need an RCBO then after all doesnt it?

Yes It is protected and if you have had an electrical test hopefully the person carrying out the test has tested it with an RCD tester

evosteo · 27-11-2014 6:35pm

the shower should not be connected directly off that 63a rcd, its over rated for the cable, it should be wired throught a 40a rcbo for personal safety due to the close proximity of the electric shower to water.

from the pic it looks like the tails are 10sq, should be 16sq from meter to d/b in a domestic setting.

theres no way that board and house wiring is up to standard for certification so unless the cert was done on the side (thru a mate) id be getting a second opinion.

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 6:53pm

evosteo wrote: »

the shower should not be connected directly off that 63a rcd, its over rated for the cable, it should be wired throught a 40a rcbo for personal safety due to the close proximity of the electric shower to water.

from the pic it looks like the tails are 10sq, should be 16sq from meter to d/b in a domestic setting.

theres no way that board and house wiring is up to standard for certification so unless the cert was done on the side (thru a mate) id be getting a second opinion.

The tails issue has already been pointed out. The ELCB is not an over current device that function is carried out by the MCB. The only disadvantage is that if the ELCB trips everything going through it is instantly disconnected. I agree with the certification issue and it has been pointed out to Andy by myself and others to get someone in and how do you know without seeing the cert that it has not already been pointed out?

27-11-2014 7:05pm

seaniefr wrote: »

The ELCB is not an over current device that function is carried out by the MCB.

Spot on.
The shower should be protected by an RCD (modern name ELCB) and an MCB or an RCBO (MCB & RCD combined in one unit).
To comply with the regulations an instantaneous type shower requires a dedicated RCD (it can't share an RCD with the sockets as shown in the photo).

27-11-2014 7:14pm

If the tails from the meter to the board were upgraded from a 10 to 16sq. it will not make any noticeable difference to voltage fluctuations. A larger ESB transformer would make the biggest difference.

Par1 · 27-11-2014 9:14pm

You will get a volt drop when current increases its basic ohms law. Nothing to worry about. Its more noticeable when shower is switched on because 40+ amps are needed instantly.

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 9:26pm

Par1 wrote: »

You will get a volt drop when current increases its basic ohms law. Nothing to worry about. Its more noticeable when shower is switched on because 40+ amps are needed instantly.I must say I didnt seem to notice it in my last house with 9kw shower, well for a split millisecond the lights may have dipped, but the lights didnt stay dimmed why the shower was on, i guess maybe our previous house had more regulated/smoothed out electricity or maybe higher voltage or higher MIC - mind you as I say our previous house was built in 2002 so maybe it had newer poles/overhead cables/ and a better transformer on the poles

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 10:32pm

esb said if i give them my meter point number MPRN) and property address they will tell me what MIC is allocated for our house, so i will do that tomorrow, wont hurt to find out - If I read their price list right it costs over €1,180.00 to upgrade the MIC if I have got that right !

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 10:52pm

2011 wrote: »

Spot on.
The shower should be protected by an RCD (modern name ELCB) and an MCB or an RCBO (MCB & RCD combined in one unit).
To comply with the regulations an instantaneous type shower requires a dedicated RCD (it can't share an RCD with the sockets as shown in the photo).

Another issue that might crop up if the current regs were to be enforced:ZL values for mcbs/rcbo's and External earth loop impedance the further away an ESB Traffo is the further a fault current has to travel if that is added to 10mm Sq tails resistance and a smaller main earth conductor now someone really has a problem..........and if the ETCI were to say that the current regs (ET 101:2008 complete with amendments) were the only game in town then half the electrical installations in the country would fail as they keep reducing ZL values for mcbs and fuses and using more conversion factors with every new edition.....

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 10:56pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

esb said if i give them my meter point number MPRN) and property address they will tell me what MIC is allocated for our house, so i will do that tomorrow, wont hurt to find out - If I read their price list right it costs over €1,180.00 to upgrade the MIC if I have got that right !

Andy if they have to supply you just the basic 12kva it should be more than enough it sounds like they are under capacity for that area

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 11:07pm

seaniefr wrote: »

Andy if they have to supply you just the basic 12kva it should be more than enough it sounds like they are under capacity for that area

if it is under capacity for the area who do you contact in the esb? and how do you get them to up the capacity for the area? - when i contacted ESB about the problem all they sent back was a link to an application form to upgrade MCU and a pdf of their charges

seaniefr · 27-11-2014 11:09pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

if it is under capacity for the area who do you contact in the esb? and how do you get them to up the capacity for the area? - when i contacted ESB about the problem all they sent back was a link to an application form to upgrade MCU and a pdf of their charges

No idea mate guess you could start by getting them to check what they are currently supplying you with and take it from there

Andy From Sligo · 27-11-2014 11:16pm

seaniefr wrote: »

No idea mate guess you could start by getting them to check what they are currently supplying you with and take it from there

Great, will do. Thanks for your help and the info.

kirving · 27-11-2014 11:39pm

braddun wrote: »

you open up the shower and take 2 leads off 1 heater

turn off power first

and use electrical tape to cover the 2 prongs

The
you should have lots of hot water

you will only use about 3.5kw

Why go messing about with the inside of the shower when you can just set it to the medium setting? Seems a bit crazy to me.

frankmul · 28-11-2014 10:02am

seaniefr wrote: »

ESB are obligated to keep the supply to within 4% of 230v so 9.2 v below 230 v would be the limit?

The nominal voltage is 230 v. The esb have to supply it within 10% of that. The voltage supplied can drop to 207 before the esb need to act. The voltage dropping to 230 volts wouldn't be a big deal in my opinion. Most equipment would be designed to run on 220 - 240 volt supplies.
I'd be more concerned with the correct use of protection device.

28-11-2014 10:12am

+1

As per EN50160 ESB Networks delivers electricity in a voltage range of 207 Volts to 253 Volts.
See link.

28-11-2014 10:19am

frankmul wrote: »

I'd be more concerned with the correct use of protection device.

Exactly.

seaniefr · 28-11-2014 11:47am

2011 wrote: »

Exactly.

ET 101:2008 525.2 says 4% of the nominal supply
am aware of the ESB requirement but how is something designed to operate at 230vac supposed to operate on 207vac?

28-11-2014 11:52am

seaniefr wrote: »

ET 101:2008 525.2 says 4% of the nominal supply
am aware of the ESB requirement but how is something designed to operate at 230vac supposed to operate on 207vac?

I don't have the regulations in front of me, but I suspect that you are referring to volt drop, which is very different.

Can you quote that regulation? Thanks.

seaniefr · 28-11-2014 12:08pm

2011 wrote: »

I don't have the regulations in front of me, but I suspect that you are referring to volt drop, which is very different.

Can you quote that regulation? Thanks.

Will check when I get home 2011 it is about volt drop alright as far as I can remember I think it's worded as 4% of the nominal voltage

28-11-2014 12:26pm

seaniefr wrote: »

Will check when I get home 2011 it is about volt drop alright as far as I can remember I think it's worded as 4% of the nominal voltage

So what ET101 is saying is that the volt drop must not exceed a percentage of the nominal voltage. ESB Networks are saying that the nominal voltage is permitted to vary between 207 and 253 volts. Two very different issues.

Risteard81 · 28-11-2014 1:06pm

2011 wrote: »

ESB Networks are saying that the nominal voltage is permitted to vary between 207 and 253 volts. Two very different issues.

Just to be accurate, the nominal voltage does not change as it is nominal. The presented voltage fluctuates. ESB probably have their transformer taps set to deliver at the higher end (i.e. around 253V) to allow for greater distances on the distribution network.

But regardless of what is seen we classify this as a 400/230V supply and calculate based on this.

28-11-2014 1:18pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Just to be accurate, the nominal voltage does not change as it is nominal.

Agree totally.

My last post should read:

So what ET101 is saying is that the volt drop must not exceed a percentage of the nominal voltage. ESB Networks are saying that the noninal supply voltage is permitted to vary between 207 and 253 volts. Two very different issues.

Anyone had a MIC upgrade on the ESB network?

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