Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Pro. F · 26-11-2014 07:33PM

Business Cat wrote: »

Emmm Id say throughout his entire United career to be honest. Someone mentioned my thoughts exactly a few posts back in that he could basically go from genius to insanity in a given game. I cannot remember a time that he played well for any kind of decent spell ie a minimum of 5 to 10 consecutive games. When I say play well I dont mean getting an odd goal or assist, thats what he is paid for. I mean his overall contribution to the team as a whole incl goals and assists. In my 25+ years supporting United he is easily the most frustrating player that I can recall.

Of course its open for debate, some may think Im being too harsh, others not harsh enough but thats football.

As I said in my last post, he would be a decent rotation player but for the money he is on and the length of his contract, it would be ludicrous to retain him on a bit part basis. Players on what he is on should be playing every game that they are fit for, I simply do not think he is good enough nor will he ever be.

All imo of course.

We're obviously not going to agree on how good or not Nani was in the seasons when he was playing regularly.

With regard to his wages, I very much doubt you know how much he is on or, for comparison, how much the average squad player at top PL teams is payed.

Pro. F · 26-11-2014 07:38PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well when you put it like that it's hard to argue...
The "run of games" argument puts me off players like Nani to be honest, I'd rather have somebody that didn't need 6 or 7 games before they started producing. He has known the setup and players inside out over the years, it's not an excuse for me no matter how many stats there is to back it up. Ashley Young, while not half as talented came on the other day for his first game in a long time and played as if he hadn't missed a game, not spectacular but at his level.

That argument gets trotted out for Rooney too, when he can't play a 3 yard pass or when Welbeck was missing sitters and falling over the ball it was "he's playing out of position". There's too many excuses for players, I find it particularly predominant with United fans.

Nani and Rooney have never needed 6 or 7 games before he started producing. Young did no better the other day than Nani or Rooney would have done many times previously when returning to the team.

Donnielighto · 26-11-2014 07:40PM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

Fans making excuses. You'd be in contact with more utd fans than any other club, on here at least.

ElChe32 · 26-11-2014 07:48PM

Tune into Comedy Central lads...this is getting good.

homerjay2005 · 26-11-2014 07:49PM

#mignoletin

Kerrydude1981 · 26-11-2014 07:49PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

Tune into Comedy Central lads...this is getting good.

Im a soccer player get me out of here is on

madcabbage · 26-11-2014 07:50PM

ElChe32 wrote: »

Tune into Comedy Central lads...this is getting good.

Thank god for pause and rewind....:rolleyes:

uncleoswald · 26-11-2014 08:16PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

Ah sure these fancy Dan lads will win ya nothing?

Never said that. Nani's goal scoring and assist record speak for themselves. Doesn't mean I have to like him.

Will I Amnt · 26-11-2014 10:14PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Nani and Rooney have never needed 6 or 7 games before he started producing. Young did no better the other day than Nani or Rooney would have done many times previously when returning to the team.

I'm sure you'll disagree but Rooney has only in the last couple of weeks looked to be getting back into the form that his reputation is built on. There are obviously other mitigating factors but he has looked out of sorts for most of the season so far.

Ashley Young came on and played like Ashley Young, he doesn't have the ceiling that Rooney or Nani should be reaching.

Liam McPoyle · 26-11-2014 10:23PM

Pro. F wrote: »

We're obviously not going to agree on how good or not Nani was in the seasons when he was playing regularly.

With regard to his wages, I very much doubt you know how much he is on or, for comparison, how much the average squad player at top PL teams is payed.

£95,000 if sources are to be believed.

I would imagine if true, (and I cant see how it wouldn't be given his age and length of service, certainly it would be there or thereabouts), its significantly higher than nearly all Premier League teams would pay a rotation player, with perhaps the exception of City who pay stupid money to everyone.

SherlockWatson · 27-11-2014 01:46AM

Looks like Gary Neville was spot on about Mignolet.

Maybe we should look to be bringing him in instead of Giggs.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 04:52AM

Business Cat wrote: »

£95,000 if sources are to be believed.

I would imagine if true, (and I cant see how it wouldn't be given his age and length of service, certainly it would be there or thereabouts), its significantly higher than nearly all Premier League teams would pay a rotation player, with perhaps the exception of City who pay stupid money to everyone.

The Metro don't even quote a source and you "imagine" about the wages of what nearly all PL teams would pay. The basis of your criticism of Nani is pure speculation.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 05:07AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I'm sure you'll disagree but Rooney has only in the last couple of weeks looked to be getting back into the form that his reputation is built on. There are obviously other mitigating factors but he has looked out of sorts for most of the season so far.

Ashley Young came on and played like Ashley Young, he doesn't have the ceiling that Rooney or Nani should be reaching.

The entire team has looked out of sorts for most of the season. Rooney has once again been the best outfield player.

Your point seems kind of daft to me, so maybe I'm not understanding it properly. In any given six to seven game stretch on returning to the team (the time frame you mentioned) who plays better, Rooney, Nani or Ashley Young? I'd say that Rooney plays best, then Nani, then a huge drop in quality back to Young. Do you disagree?

Will I Amnt · 27-11-2014 06:46AM

Pro. F wrote: »

The entire team has looked out of sorts for most of the season. Rooney has once again been the best outfield player.

Well that was a mitigating factor that I mentioned, plus his 3 game ban.

Your point seems kind of daft to me, so maybe I'm not understanding it properly. In any given six to seven game stretch on returning to the team (the time frame you mentioned) who plays better, Rooney, Nani or Ashley Young? I'd say that Rooney plays best, then Nani, then a huge drop in quality back to Young. Do you disagree?

My point wasn't who plays better. Young, like the majority of professional footballers didn't look like he forgot how to play football when he came on. Rooney is a fantastic footballer at his peak but can look so far off that peak, especially when returning from a layoff or the beginning of a season. It is absolutely unforgivable for a player in his bracket to have such a poor short game at times, I would have thought it would particularly wind yourself up given your feelings on possession and ball retention in midfield.

kstand · 27-11-2014 07:46AM

The Nani argument has many sides to it.
Personally I always felt he had real quality but some times tried too hard and when he wasn't playing well, his confidence and game subsequently suffered. There were patches in his OT career when he was a nailed on starter - a player doesn't lose the ability overnight, its the belief in themselves, in their surroundings, their manager etc. And I think he suffered loss of form down to loss of confidence etc and needed a fresh start.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 08:19AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well that was a mitigating factor that I mentioned, plus his 3 game ban.

Inferring that there is some underlying problem with Rooney in particular because he has looked below his best when the entire team has looked below their best and he has actually been one of the better players is shoddy logic.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

My point wasn't who plays better. Young, like the majority of professional footballers didn't look like he forgot how to play football when he came on. Rooney is a fantastic footballer at his peak but can look so far off that peak, especially when returning from a layoff or the beginning of a season. It is absolutely unforgivable for a player in his bracket to have such a poor short game at times, I would have thought it would particularly wind yourself up given your feelings on possession and ball retention in midfield.

I think Rooney's games of poor form are massively over stated by people on this thread - they happen once or twice a season, which is far fewer than most other top strikers - not every time he returns after a lay off. And his ability to hold onto and use possession is better than most top strikers, but lots of fans don't understand that. For instance, when on form Rooney is far better at it than RVP, and Rooney is on form more often than RVP, but many fans would, incorrectly, think the opposite.

I'm still not sure I'm really getting what you are saying though. Are you really saying that up until a few weeks ago Rooney was looking like he had forgotten how to play football?

beno619 · 27-11-2014 08:24AM

Pro. F wrote:

I think Rooney's games of poor form are massively over stated by people on this thread - they happen once or twice a season, which is far fewer than most other top strikers - not every time he returns after a lay off. And his ability to hold onto and use possession compares is better than most top strikers, but lots of fans don't understand that. For instance, when on form Rooney is far better at it than RVP, and Rooney is on form more often than RVP, but many fans would, incorrectly, think the opposite.

I dunno , when Rooney is bad he's really bad and because he plays in a deeper position than most forwards his poor touches or passing stand out a bit more.

Having said that right now RVP is almost as poor as Rooney at his worst a few years back.

Deiseboy01 · 27-11-2014 08:36AM

I don't ever remember Rooney having a poor stretch as long as the one RVP is currently on. His periods of poor form certainly get too much focus.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 08:41AM

beno619 wrote: »

I dunno , when Rooney is bad he's really bad and because he plays in a deeper position than most forwards his poor touches or passing stand out a bit more.

Having said that right now RVP is almost as poor as Rooney at his worst a few years back.

But, contrary the myth that has been built up, Rooney's really bad games are very rare.

The fact that he's a striker being made to play deeper is the fault of his managers, not the player.

Will I Amnt · 27-11-2014 08:53AM

Pro. F wrote: »

Inferring that there is some underlying problem with Rooney in particular because he has looked below his best when the entire team has looked below their best and he has actually been one of the better players is shoddy logic.

I think Rooney's games of poor form are massively over stated by people on this thread - they happen once or twice a season, which is far fewer than most other top strikers - not every time he returns after a lay off. And his ability to hold onto and use possession is better than most top strikers, but lots of fans don't understand that. For instance, when on form Rooney is far better at it than RVP, and Rooney is on form more often than RVP, but many fans would, incorrectly, think the opposite.

I'm still not sure I'm really getting what you are saying though. Are you really saying that up until a few weeks ago Rooney was looking like he had forgotten how to play football?

I guess I expect a better standard from one of the top paid players in the game, I certainly expect them to get the basics right.

beno619 · 27-11-2014 08:54AM

Deiseboy01 wrote:

I don't ever remember Rooney having a poor stretch as long as the one RVP is currently on. His periods of poor form certainly get too much focus.

Pro. F wrote:

But, contrary the myth that has been built up, Rooney's really bad games are very rare.

Rooney had a poor season the year revelations of his private life came out.
He was also awful in the second half of Fergies last season.

RVP has been poor for almost 18 months now.

In fairness to Rooney he's been good for almost every other season and phenomenal for 2.

Pro. F wrote:

The fact that he's a striker being made to play deeper is the fault of his managers, not the player.

True but you still expect him to be able to make simple passes and have a decent first touch which he hasn't at times.

beno619 · 27-11-2014 08:57AM

Will I Amnt wrote:

I guess I expect a better standard from one of the top paid players in the game, I certainly expect them to get the basics right.

Yep basically this.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 09:06AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I guess I expect a better standard from one of the top paid players in the game, I certainly expect them to get the basics right.

So you are saying that up until a few weeks ago Rooney wasn't even getting the basics right this season. That is nonsense.

Since that is the type of judgement you make on him looking at this season then it's no wonder you have an issue with him. Back in reality however he has been one of the best and most consistent forwards in the league for years.

beno619 · 27-11-2014 09:16AM

Pro. F wrote: »

So you are saying that up until a few weeks ago Rooney wasn't even getting the basics right this season. That is nonsense.

Since that is the type of judgement you make on him looking at this season then it's no wonder you have an issue with him. Back in reality however he has been one of the best and most consistent forwards in the league for years.

Just to clarify where I stand, Rooney has been good this season and good, great and phenomenal over his career with the exception of 12 months where he was poor and 6 months where he was amateurish.

Pro. F · 27-11-2014 09:23AM

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney had a poor season the year revelations of his private life came out.
He was also awful in the second half of Fergies last season.

RVP has been poor for almost 18 months now.

In fairness to Rooney he's been good for almost every other season and phenomenal for 2.

Fergie fùcked Rooney all over the place in his last season, of course his form suffered. It's ridiculous to make out that a player has issues with form because his form suffered when his manager was purposefully fùcking him over.

The hooker story came out at the start of the 10/11 season. Rooney's from did suffer, but he still went on to score 11 goals and 11 assists in 25 league starts and 4 goals and 2 assists in 9 CL starts. Not at all bad for one of his rare poor seasons.

beno619 wrote: »

True but you still expect him to be able to make simple passes and have a decent first touch which he hasn't at times.

At times being once or twice a season. Stick any top striker back at 10 and you would see them having such games, but more often.

RobertKK · 27-11-2014 09:25AM

Transfer rumours...

United and Chelsea to battle it out for Varane.

The most ridiculous is United are lining up Ancelotti to replace LVG and put him on some crazy wage.

SpuddMurphy · 27-11-2014 09:32AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Transfer rumours...

United and Chelsea to battle it out for Varane.

The most ridiculous is United are lining up Ancelotti to replace LVG and put him on some crazy wage.

I'd 100% take Varane but can't see it happening, he chose them over us a few years ago. As for Ancelotti, I've been reading around that he rejected us twice, first being when Fergie retired and second when Moyes was sacked..

Crimson King · 27-11-2014 10:13AM

Madrid are such a crazily run club nothing about them surprises me anymore, they bought him for about €10M but he has never played more than 15 league games for them since 2011. A decent Rio sized bid of £30M or so would tempt them. Maybe so soon after the Di Maria sale the last club they want to sell to are United, as their fans would go crazy.

He is also on low enough salary I think, about £1.2M a year. So I reckon like Pogba last season the rumours are stemming from the agent(s) and its a way to bargain for a better deal now that Carlos is actually using him this season. Why can one player be paid £200K+ a week whilst another be paid circa £25K a week in the same team? That would be their argument anyways.

Would love him at the club, Shaw and himself would be a great foundation for years to come in defense. Can't see it happening though, even if Madrid are such a bat sh*t crazy club.

Will I Amnt · 27-11-2014 10:20AM

Pro. F wrote: »

So you are saying that up until a few weeks ago Rooney wasn't even getting the basics right this season. That is nonsense.

I never said he was consistently like that up until a few weeks ago but yes he had some games where his simple passing was truly awful. That is unacceptable for me. The opening game against Swansea was particularly terrible.

There were calls to have him dropped from the England team not so long ago too, he was so bad for them.
I'm sure you will counter this with the "he's in a team playing poorly" argument too but again, I expect a lot more from a player in that bracket, just like Suarez dragging Liverpool and Sanchez dragging Arsenal it shouldn't be as big an excuse as it is.

Backstreet Moyes · 27-11-2014 10:27AM

Pro. F wrote: »

But, contrary the myth that has been built up, Rooney's really bad games are very rare.

The fact that he's a striker being made to play deeper is the fault of his managers, not the player.

Rooney has the problem where people don't like him so criticise him far harsher than others.

If your judging just on football than Rooney has less poor games than most of the best forwards around.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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