Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Pro. F

M!Ck^ wrote: »

A number that I used is in turn giving you the space for an argument. If I turned the figure of 20 into a 'solid run in team' what would a solid run consist of in your opinion?

Something like four games. That's the type of run that you would give any player before demanding that they find top form. Your suggestion that a United player must make himself undroppable in one or two games to justify his place in the team is obviously a lot different to that and not the yardstick by which you measure the other players at the club.

PhlegmyMoses

Nani would be a decent squad option, especially if it helps to keep Di Maria away from the wings. I actually think he'd fare better with the quality in this side than under Moyes.

That being said, I think some people remember his good days with rose tinted glasses. Sublime to the ridiculous in one game, he'd score a lovely chipped goal before doing a silly flick, breaking up an attack where we had loads of men committed forward allowing the other team to counter.

Nani is most certainly a valuable player, he is also incredibly frustrating over the course of 90 minutes.

Mantis Toboggan

bucketybuck wrote: »

By scuffing his shot and getting lucky? How did you think he got it?

Antonio Valencia, 2 league goals in 29 games last season, 1 from 30 the season before, he is indeed an attacking phenom.

I'm not saying that Valencia is brilliant, he's had a few bad seasons although he's played well recently. He's one dimensional and predictable.
What I was saying is that his much superior work rate and dedication had meant he stays in the squad and nani gets sent out on loan. It's no mystery of why Fergie, Moyes and now LVG have all favoured Valencia.

bucketybuck

Buddy Holly wrote: »

It's no mystery of why Fergie, Moyes and now LVG have all favoured Valencia.

Yes it is.

Smartarse answers aside, I think Antonio Valencia has been utterly blessed by circumstance in his time at the club. Performance wise he should have been turfed out years ago, but constant injury problems elsewhere have seen us forced to make use of him.

He hasn't been favoured by LVG for example, he has just been the last man standing.

KH25

Yeah valencias only getting a game this year because he's viewed as an auxiliary right back. Moyes played him because he's considered a defensive player and moyes set out the team not to lose rather than to win. Fergie in his prime wouldn't have settled for the performances Valencia put out in the last 3 years.

PhlegmyMoses

KH25 wrote: »

Yeah valencias only getting a game this year because he's viewed as an auxiliary right back. Moyes played him because he's considered a defensive player and moyes set out the team not to lose rather than to win. Fergie in his prime wouldn't have settled for the performances Valencia put out in the last 3 years.

Fergie would have felt that Valencia could get back to his player of the season form. Even under Fergie, he went from nailed on starter to oftebln being overlooked. The rot had set in then.

sky88

Nani wouldnt be a bad squad player to have has the pace we are lacking in the squad as a whole.

He can be as frustrating as hell but hes a better option than Valencia. Nani will always look to play forward wereas Val will look back on the majority of passes or do his favourite move of hitting the ball as hard as he can and hope for the best

PhlegmyMoses

sky88 wrote: »

Nani wouldnt be a bad squad player to have has the pace we are lacking in the squad as a whole.

He can be as frustrating as hell but hes a better option than Valencia. Nani will always look to play forward wereas Val will look back on the majority of passes or do his favourite move of hitting the ball as hard as he can and hope for the best

Exactly. If you have a game similar to the Crystal Palace game this year, Nani can drag you out of a hole with a mazy dribble or a thunderbastard of a shot. Guaranteed starter? No thanks. But a valuable squad member would be where I'd see him.

castletownman

I think one way to settle the Val-Nani arguement is to switch things around. Would Valencia be tearing the Portuguese league up (which Nani seems to be doing going by various accounts) and impressing in the CL had he being sent out on loan? Based on his regression the last few seasons I'd be inclined to say no.

But then again had Nani been around the current United squad in the exact same injury circumstances, I don't think he'd be deployed as a make-shift right back. But that's because he's poses far more of a threat as an out-an-out winger than Tony V. The first sign of the downfall of a winger's nous is when he is deployed more for his defensive qualities, ala Valencia.

Besides, people tend to focus way too more on the here and now, and devalue the fact Nani seems to be in flying form solely on the fact that the form is coinciding with his time on loan. Maybe, just maybe, he's showing he deserves an extended run on the wing, and would definitely take him back into the squad as the number one wing option.

Backstreet Moyes

I can take the fact that some people don't like Nani and find him frustrating.

But when your options are a younger more inconsistent winger who can;t cross and a winger who knows only one way to go and thats back the way then i find it laughable people don't want Nani back.

If we got in a good right winger i could understand the madness of not wanting him back in January. But to say he is not needed back with our current problems on the right wing is madness.

Mantis Toboggan

Well I suppose the only way to settle this is for Nani to come back in January, get an extented run in the team and either tear the league apart or been anonymous.

My feelings is we would tearing our hair out in frustration and crying out for Di Maria back out on the right.

kryogen

Trilla wrote: »

Yet you bothered to reply to others with irrelevant stats, which somehow prove he's attacking or not.

He's been poor the last 3 seasons of course. Only showed tiny glimpses of the Valencia we've seen before. In fact I'd go as far to say he's had 1 season and another half season where he's been in good\great form. Worth keeping for squad purposes I think.

In his defence, that was in response to someone who used Valencias goal against Arsenal as some sort of proof of his attacking threat

kryogen

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Well I suppose the only way to settle this is for Nani to come back in January, get an extented run in the team and either tear the league apart or been anonymous.

My feelings is we would tearing our hair out in frustration and crying out for Di Maria back out on the right.

People have been voicing plenty of frustration with Di Maria for the exact same reasons they do with Nani already!

Backstreet Moyes

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Well I suppose the only way to settle this is for Nani to come back in January, get an extented run in the team and either tear the league apart or been anonymous.

My feelings is we would tearing our hair out in frustration and crying out for Di Maria back out on the right.

Since when has Di Maria been our first choice right winger.

Nuts102

Nuts102 wrote: »

Since when has Di Maria been our first choice right winger.

People will make any excuse to put Nani down at this stage.

Liam McPoyle

Pro. F wrote: »

When was it that Nani proved to be staggeringly inconsistent?

Emmm Id say throughout his entire United career to be honest. Someone mentioned my thoughts exactly a few posts back in that he could basically go from genius to insanity in a given game. I cannot remember a time that he played well for any kind of decent spell ie a minimum of 5 to 10 consecutive games. When I say play well I dont mean getting an odd goal or assist, thats what he is paid for. I mean his overall contribution to the team as a whole incl goals and assists. In my 25+ years supporting United he is easily the most frustrating player that I can recall.

Of course its open for debate, some may think Im being too harsh, others not harsh enough but thats football.

As I said in my last post, he would be a decent rotation player but for the money he is on and the length of his contract, it would be ludicrous to retain him on a bit part basis. Players on what he is on should be playing every game that they are fit for, I simply do not think he is good enough nor will he ever be.

All imo of course.

Will I Amnt

Nuts102 wrote: »

But when your options are a younger more inconsistent winger who can;t cross and a winger who knows only one way to go and thats back the way then i find it laughable people don't want Nani back

Well when you put it like that it's hard to argue...
The "run of games" argument puts me off players like Nani to be honest, I'd rather have somebody that didn't need 6 or 7 games before they started producing. He has known the setup and players inside out over the years, it's not an excuse for me no matter how many stats there is to back it up. Ashley Young, while not half as talented came on the other day for his first game in a long time and played as if he hadn't missed a game, not spectacular but at his level.

That argument gets trotted out for Rooney too, when he can't play a 3 yard pass or when Welbeck was missing sitters and falling over the ball it was "he's playing out of position". There's too many excuses for players, I find it particularly predominant with United fans.

uncleoswald

Nuts102 wrote: »

I can take the fact that some people don't like Nani and find him frustrating.

I'm one of those. I dislike pretty much everything about Nani, from his embarrassing histrionics, to his often lack of brains exemplified by that goal he got ruled out for offside while playing for Portugal. Ronaldo only gets away with been such a ridiculous tool because he has so much talent to back it up.

But right now I'd kill for Nani to be on the wing ahead of Valencia, but I'd really prefer to just move on from both.

The Moldy Gowl

Exactly.

Welbeck got into a load of positions where that would be his 'natural' positions but still missed horribly. Starting on the wing isn't an excuse unless he is shooting from the wing.
He never really played as a proper winger, more an inside forward.

But you can make up a million excuses

The_Kew_Tour

Business Cat wrote: »

Emmm Id say throughout his entire United career to be honest. Someone mentioned my thoughts exactly a few posts back in that he could basically go from genius to insanity in a given game. I cannot remember a time that he played well for any kind of decent spell ie a minimum of 5 to 10 consecutive games. When I say play well I dont mean getting an odd goal or assist, thats what he is paid for. I mean his overall contribution to the team as a whole incl goals and assists. In my 25+ years supporting United he is easily the most frustrating player that I can recall.

Of course its open for debate, some may think Im being too harsh, others not harsh enough but thats football.

As I said in my last post, he would be a decent rotation player but for the money he is on and the length of his contract, it would be ludicrous to retain him on a bit part basis. Players on what he is on should be playing every game that they are fit for, I simply do not think he is good enough nor will he ever be.

All imo of course.

I respect your opinion but would not agree on the contribution part, especially.

He produced some very good performances in 07/08 season and also was one of better players between 2010 to 2012.

I think many who say he did not contribute mean things like not tracking back and been bit soft in big games, but a certain Ronaldo could be classed in that bracket.

At end of day goals and assists help win games and he has produced that in very consistent level throughout his career at United.

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well when you put it like that it's hard to argue...
The "run of games" argument puts me off players like Nani to be honest, I'd rather have somebody that didn't need 6 or 7 games before they started producing. He has known the setup and players inside out over the years, it's not an excuse for me no matter how many stats there is to back it up. Ashley Young, while not half as talented came on the other day for his first game in a long time and played as if he hadn't missed a game, not spectacular but at his level.

That argument gets trotted out for Rooney too, when he can't play a 3 yard pass or when Welbeck was missing sitters and falling over the ball it was "he's playing out of position". There's too many excuses for players, I find it particularly predominant with United fans.

Rooney also generally takes 3 or 4 games to find form. I think it's more only playing bit part when he's coming back and sitting out games just gets him injured again quickly whereas when given 2 or 3 games he can build his match fitness and go on a run of fitness where he can show his full potential. Nearly every player struggles their first game back from injury or after being out of the team for a few weeks. United fans just wanted another Ronaldo, what they got was a top class winger but it wasn't enough.

The Moldy Gowl

uncleoswald wrote: »

I'm one of those. I dislike pretty much everything about Nani, from his embarrassing histrionics, to his often lack of brains exemplified by that goal he got ruled out for offside while playing for Portugal. Ronaldo only gets away with been such a ridiculous tool because he has so much talent to back it up.

But right now I'd kill for Nani to be on the wing ahead of Valencia, but I'd really prefer to just move on from both.

I don't think Valencia has started on the wing this year? Came on alright. Has been grand at rb in fairness.

At least lvg has the sense to not play him there.

Donnielighto

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Well when you put it like that it's hard to argue...
The "run of games" argument puts me off players like Nani to be honest, I'd rather have somebody that didn't need 6 or 7 games before they started producing. He has known the setup and players inside out over the years, it's not an excuse for me no matter how many stats there is to back it up. Ashley Young, while not half as talented came on the other day for his first game in a long time and played as if he hadn't missed a game, not spectacular but at his level.

That argument gets trotted out for Rooney too, when he can't play a 3 yard pass or when Welbeck was missing sitters and falling over the ball it was "he's playing out of position". There's too many excuses for players, I find it particularly predominant with United fans.

Well they are the ones you have most interaction with.

The point that some players don't suffer (as much/at all) from intermittent appearances or from being played out of position isn't fair IMO as these doaffect players differently.

Donnielighto

uncleoswald wrote: »

I'm one of those. I dislike pretty much everything about Nani, from his embarrassing histrionics, to his often lack of brains exemplified by that goal he got ruled out for offside while playing for Portugal. Ronaldo only gets away with been such a ridiculous tool because he has so much talent to back it up.

But right now I'd kill for Nani to be on the wing ahead of Valencia, but I'd really prefer to just move on from both.

Ah sure these fancy Dan lads will win ya nothing?

Backstreet Moyes

I often wonder when people say Nani ever done it for United can they not think back a few seasons to 10/11 when he was our most important player in a title winning season. Fair enough you don't like him but to say he has never done anything at United is wrong unless your new to football.

9 goals and 10 assists in 33 league games when Rooney was missing and he had to provide service to Berbatov.

ElChe32

I see Anderson has at least found his role in the team. Carrying Falcao to training.

https://vine.co/v/O19mwDI0jAF

Will I Amnt

Donnielighto wrote: »

Well they are the ones you have most interaction with.

What do you mean by that?

The Moldy Gowl

Nuts102 wrote: »

I often wonder when people say Nani ever done it for United can they not think back a few seasons to 10/11 when he was our most important player in a title winning season. Fair enough you don't like him but to say he has never done anything at United is wrong unless your new to football.

9 goals and 10 assists in 33 league games when Rooney was missing and he had to provide service to Berbatov.

That's the crux of it really. The pro nani crowd point to one season 4 years ago.
The anti nani crowd point to that season as well.

Both then ask why hasn't he done it since.

Copy and paste their replys and stats.

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

People will make any excuse to put Nani down at this stage.

Also any excuse to big him up

The_Kew_Tour

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Also any excuse to big him up

IMO nobody is bigging him more then they should .

I don't think he was one of our greatest players or anything, but on his day he was a important player who contributed to the success of the club while there.

Myself I would put him in the "very good player" bracket.