What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

Witcher · 24-11-2014 01:01PM

kylith wrote: »

Granted, but I think they should be part of the standard issue if they're not already. Shouldn't the cops should always look to incapacitate rather than kill? Beanbag rounds, taser shells, and other non-lethal* ammunitions are decidedly less likely to kill someone than actual bullets.

*not a guarantee

You have to remember that they don't always work and then factor in that beat cops won't have a beanbag/taser shotgun at their disposal, only cars carry long guns. All a beat cop will have is a taser and it may not be possible to use it in a situation.

There's no one size fits all solution to these situations, there are always people that say 'Oh shoot them in the leg' or such but that's not realistic.

All the internet Bob Munden's come out on these threads..'Well I'd have pulled my six shooter and hit him in the kneecap from 100 paces'.

kylith · 24-11-2014 01:06PM

Strider wrote: »

You have to remember that they don't always work and then factor in that beat cops won't have a beanbag/taser shotgun at their disposal, only cars carry long guns. All a beat cop will have is a taser and it may not be possible to use it in a situation.

There's no one size fits all solution to these situations, there are always people that say 'Oh shoot them in the leg' or such but that's not realistic.

If all a beat cop would have is a taser then it is obvious that it was a car that responded to the 911 call as the boy was shot.

I know it's not one size fits all, but anything that can decrease the chances of the police shooting another person by mistake is a good thing.

And I'd never say to shoot them in the leg; you'll just piss them off. Take out the shoulder if you can, it's hard to aim a gun when your arm doesn't work.

Flibbles · 24-11-2014 01:08PM

kylith wrote: »

And I'd never say to shoot them in the leg; you'll just piss them off. Take out the shoulder if you can, it's hard to aim a gun when your arm doesn't work.

I'd say your chances of taking out a bystander behind them would be very high if you aim for the shoulder.

Witcher · 24-11-2014 01:09PM

kylith wrote: »

If all a beat cop would have is a taser then it is obvious that it was a car that responded to the 911 call as the boy was shot.

I know it's not one size fits all, but anything that can decrease the chances of the police shooting another person by mistake is a good thing.

And I'd never say to shoot them in the leg; you'll just piss them off. Take out the shoulder if you can, it's hard to aim a gun when your arm doesn't work.

I meant all a beat cop would have in the way of less-lethal weaponry is a taser.

No police forces aim for the arm, leg etc. It's always centre mass, no messing around with trick shots.

kylith · 24-11-2014 01:13PM

Strider wrote: »

I meant all a beat cop would have in the way of less-lethal weaponry is a taser.

No police forces aim for the arm, leg etc. It's always centre mass, no messing around with trick shots.

Ah, I see what you mean.

I know exactly what you're saying and, when dealing with dangerous criminals, it would be correct, but it does hugely increase the possibility of killing people who are not dangerous because of mistaken identity.

Sure, one can say that the kid should have put his hands up, but he was 12. We didn't all do exactly what we were told when we were 12. He could well have been about to through the replica on the ground. He made no threatening gestures or statements, and now he's dead.

salamanca22 · 24-11-2014 01:16PM

It's a horrible situation and now these cops have to live with the fact that a child is now dead due to their actions and the childs actions.

I do not blame the officers in this situation at all. The kid was pointing a realistic imitation firearm at random people in a park and then when ordered to put his hands up by the officers reached for it. What do you think is going on at that moment in the cops head? They are not going to wait for that potentially life ending moment where the perp may point the gun right at them, they are going the make damn well sure that doesn't happen. It's all well and good saying that they should of fired a disabling shot rather than a kill shot, but have you ever shot a gun? How about under stress? How about at a target as small as a 12 year old boy? It is not as simple as pointing and pulling the trigger. And shooting the leg or arm will not stop a person shooting 9/10 times.

These cops might have families to go home to. It would be a different tune everyone would be singing had it been that the cops waited and were then shot to death by the child. (Or would be be even having a conversation at all about it? Is there enough hyperbole to be outraged in that situation?)

noodler · 24-11-2014 01:44PM

Strider wrote: »

Just putting his hand on it was enough, do you think the cops are going to wait until it's pointed at them before they fire?

Don't ask me stupid questions.

I was pointing out an error in several posts in this thread.

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 02:21PM

Why is it usually black individuals who are mistakenly shot by police?

I mean considering african-americans are in a minority, why are they so overwhelmingly the victims of these sort of fatalities?

You can bet your house on the fact that if that was a 12 year old white kid then he wouldn't be dead. The police would definitely think twice before shooting a white kid who hadn't even pointed the 'gun' at them when they opened fire.

Tiddlypeeps · 24-11-2014 02:21PM

kylith wrote: »

He made no threatening gestures or statements, and now he's dead.

Reaching for a gun is a threatening gesture.

This is a very sad and unfortunate situation for all involved. Nothing I've read gives me any reason to blame the cops for their actions. Unless their is some information being withheld I hope they aren't given too hard a time over it. It's possible a better resolution could have been achieved, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that. The cops likely went into the situation believing, weather the gun was real or not, that the kid would put his hands up immediately when confronted because that is by far and away the most likely outcome.

I do blame american gun culture tho. This scenario would have been very unlikely to play out as it did in a country where a 12 year old having a gun is incredibly unlikely. Steps can and should be taken to make sure this scenario is very unlikely to happen again, but that is almost completely out of any individual cops hands.

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 02:27PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

This scenario would have been very unlikely to play out as it did in a country where a 12 year old having a gun is incredibly unlikely. Steps can and should be taken to make sure this scenario is very unlikely to happen again, but that is almost completely out of any individual cops hands.

He 'reached' for his waistband. He didn't even have the gun in his hand or had even pointed it in his direction. Remember this is the cops account as well.

They hear a kid has a gun, probably even a toy gun according to the caller who rang it in, and they blast the kid away. He didn't even have the gun in his hand at the time.

Are you honestly saying that if that was a white kid that the police would have reacted the same? I think they would have hesitated until such a time as the gun was actually in the white kids hand and being raised towards them before firing. When it comes to the police white people get that benefit of the doubt that black people don't and that is a fact.

How many white under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police ever? Now how many black under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police in the last month?

Pumpkinseeds · 24-11-2014 02:33PM

Putinovsky wrote: »

He 'reached' for his waistband. He didn't even have the gun in his hand or had even pointed it in his direction. Remember this is the cops account as well.

They hear a kid has a gun, probably even a toy gun according to the caller who rang it in, and they blast the kid away. He didn't even have the gun in his hand at the time.

Are you honestly saying that if that was a white kid that the police would have reacted the same? I think they would have hesitated until such a time as the gun was actually in the white kids hand and being raised towards them before firing. When it comes to the police white people get that benefit of the doubt that black people don't and that is a fact.

How many white under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police ever? Now how many black under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police in the last month?

As far as I'm aware the vast majority of American school shootings are carried out by WHITE kids. Don't play the race card on this issue.

kylith · 24-11-2014 02:38PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

As far as I'm aware the vast majority of American school shootings are carried out by WHITE kids. Don't play the race card on this issue.

That has nothing to do with what he said, as far as I can see. Young white males are most likely to carry out a shooting in their school, but young black males are more likely to be shot by the police for spurious reasons. Racism is a very real factor.

Tiddlypeeps · 24-11-2014 02:39PM

Putinovsky wrote: »

He 'reached' for his waistband. He didn't even have the gun in his hand or had even pointed it in his direction. Remember this is the cops account as well.

They hear a kid has a gun, probably even a toy gun according to the caller who rang it in, and they blast the kid away. He didn't even have the gun in his hand at the time.

Are you honestly saying that if that was a white kid that the police would have reacted the same? I think they would have hesitated until such a time as the gun was actually in the white kids hand and being raised towards them before firing. When it comes to the police white people get that benefit of the doubt that black people don't and that is a fact.

How many white under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police ever? Now how many black under 18s have been shot dead mistakenly by US police in the last month?

I have no idea if this incident was racially motivated, the cop being white and the kid being black isn't enough information to make that sort of call. All the information I have to go on is that the cop pointed his gun at the kid and told him to put his hands up. The kid then reached for the gun which was in his waist band. At this point the cop has two choices 1) take the risk and wait it out to see what the kid does which could very easily result in the kid having time to get a shot off, or 2) don't risk it and stop the kid from drawing his gun.

If you were in the cops shoes would you have taken the chance? It's very easy to say yes in Ireland because the odds of a 12 year old kid (or anyone for that matter) having a gun are so astronomically small, but in the US it's not unreasonable to assume the gun the kid was carrying could very well be real. I honestly can't say what I would do in the cops shoes, but I certainly don't hold it against him not taking the risk and prioritising his own life over the kids.

Digital Society · 24-11-2014 02:40PM

_Brian wrote: »

I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile.

Well its simple logic really. If you shoot someone in the leg they will just keep shooting with their hands as they intended. They will likely make the smarter decision to shoot you in the head and kill you. Then they will probably start shooting everyone else they can in the area.

AudreyHepburn · 24-11-2014 02:44PM

A horrible situation for all involved....but I would caution against anger towards the Officers involved.

The boy was twelve, that is old enough to know right from wrong, old enough to know what could happen if you don't do what the police are telling you to do, when they tell you to do it.

He might not have pointed the gun at the officers, but he did reach towards it when asked to put his hands up and there was no way at all for them to know, in that split second, that it was a toy.

Of course the boy didn't deserve to be shot, but let's not paint these officers as inhumane monsters either. They had a decision to make, in a split second, and they made it. That's all there is to it.

Pumpkinseeds · 24-11-2014 02:46PM

kylith wrote: »

That has nothing to do with what he said, as far as I can see. Young white males are most likely to carry out a shooting in their school, but young black males are more likely to be shot by the police for spurious reasons. Racism is a very real factor.

Young white males may be most likely to carry out shootings in their schools but gun crime in black neighbourhoods is higher in the black community than in the white community.

Oink · 24-11-2014 02:53PM

I wish the kid wasn't dead.

I also wish he hadn't:
- modified a replica to make it look like the real thing
- pulled it out in public
- near other kids
- in a country where cops are on the lookout for armed psychos

I assume he wasn't suicidal, but he was sure acting like it. If I was his dad I would be asking myself a whole lot of questions right now.

May he rest in peace.

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 03:00PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I have no idea if this incident was racially motivated, the cop being white and the kid being black isn't enough information to make that sort of call. All the information I have to go on is that the cop pointed his gun at the kid and told him to put his hands up. The kid then reached for the gun which was in his waist band. At this point the cop has two choices 1) take the risk and wait it out to see what the kid does which could very easily result in the kid having time to get a shot off, or 2) don't risk it and stop the kid from drawing his gun.

If you were in the cops shoes would you have taken the chance? It's very easy to say yes in Ireland because the odds of a 12 year old kid (or anyone for that matter) having a gun are so astronomically small, but in the US it's not unreasonable to assume the gun the kid was carrying could very well be real. I honestly can't say what I would do in the cops shoes, but I certainly don't hold it against him not taking the risk and prioritising his own life over the kids.

It's a kid. You hold off that little while longer. At the very least you wait until you actually see the gun in his hand. Which is what I think they would have done if he was a white kid.

But no, this kid is black. In the cops mind despite being told it was probably a toy gun he is thinking that blacks tend to be more dangerous than whites, his life is at more risk, blacks are more likely to shoot back, he doesn't feel the same pressure to hold off than if it was a white kid because in his head white kids will be more likely to be from 'good backgrounds' and he'll be in a lot more trouble if he gets it wrong. His experiences teach him that the general public are much more likely to forgive him when the kid is black than when the kid is white. When the kid's black suddenly the narrative coming out is about the tough choices cops have to make and the outpouring of sympathy not for the victim or the victim's parents but for this poor cop who has to live with what has happened. The victim gets little sympathy, he should have known better, the parents should be scrutinized.

Look at the statistics, it is very much racism no matter how many people try write it off. There is no other explanation for why it is so overwhelmingly black youths that are mistakenly killed by police.

I'm not saying it is intentional racism on the part of the cops, but it is racism.

Irishcrx · 24-11-2014 03:07PM

Oink wrote: »

I wish the kid wasn't dead.

I also wish he hadn't:
- modified a replica to make it look like the real thing
- pulled it out in public
- near other kids
- in a country where cops are on the lookout for armed psychos

I assume he wasn't suicidal, but he was sure acting like it. If I was his dad I would be asking myself a whole lot of questions right now.

May he rest in peace.

Yeah if it was my son I'd be asking myself a lot of questions this morning such as.

* Who shot my son
* What is their badge number?
* Exactly why did you have to kill him , he's 12.
* Why did they shoot my 12 year old child, children make mistakes and aren't always fully aware of the implications of their actions or risks.
* Where does this cop live and does he have family.
* What will I have to get in order before I go to jail myself.
* Where can I get a real gun to use on the prick that killed my child.

salamanca22 · 24-11-2014 03:07PM

Putinovsky wrote: »

I'm not saying it is intentional racism on the part of the cops, but it is racism.

Or more black kids are in the position where they may be shot by police.

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 03:13PM

salamanca22 wrote: »

Or more black kids are in the position where they may be shot by police.

And why is that?

We're talking about mistaken shootings here. The only position they are in that would led to the overwhelming difference is their skin colour. If they're black they're more likely to be dangerous and to be carrying a gun in the cops mind so as a result cops are more likely to shoot first and ask questions later when the kid is black. That is the brunt of it.

And that is nothing other than racism. Like I said earlier, in America white people will usually get the benefit of the doubt from police that black people don't.

Reekwind · 24-11-2014 03:14PM

Oink wrote: »

I wish the kid wasn't dead.

I also wish he hadn't:
- modified a replica to make it look like the real thing
- pulled it out in public
- near other kids
- in a country where cops are on the lookout for armed psychos

I assume he wasn't suicidal, but he was sure acting like it. If I was his dad I would be asking myself a whole lot of questions right now.

Are we now blaming a 12 year old kid for playing with a toy gun in public with other children? Is that now enough to get a 12 year old shot?

And I'm just going to emphasise that last bit for you: a 12 year old kid. I don't expect children that age to have a firm grasp of the politics of gun ownership, nor would I expect them to fear being shot dead by police while playing.

AudreyHepburn · 24-11-2014 03:15PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Yeah if it was my son I'd be asking myself a lot of questions this morning such as.

* Who shot my son
* What is their badge number?
* Exactly why did you have to kill him , he's 12.
* Why did they shoot my 12 year old child, children make mistakes and aren't always fully aware of the implications of their actions or risks.
* Where does this cop live and does he have family.
* What will I have to get in order before I go to jail myself.
* Where can I get a real gun to use on the prick that killed my child.

How about asking

* Why did my son, when asked to put his hands up, instead reach for the gun?
* Why did he think it was a good idea to go around point a very real looking firearm at people?

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 03:15PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Are we now blaming a 12 year old kid for playing with a toy gun in public with other children? Is that now enough to get a 12 year old shot?

And I'm just going to emphasise that last bit for you: a 12 year old kid. I don't expect children that age to have a firm grasp of the politics of gun ownership, nor would I expect them to fear being shot dead by police while playing.

Victim blaming, plain and simple.

wexie · 24-11-2014 03:18PM

Putinovsky wrote: »

If they're black they're more likely to be dangerous and to be carrying a gun in the cops mind so as a result cops are more likely to shoot first and ask questions later when the kid is black. That is the brunt of it.

And that is nothing other than racism. Like I said earlier, in America white people will usually get the benefit of the doubt from police that black people don't.

IS it racism though? A black kid in a predominantly black (poor) neighbourhood IS more likely to be involved in crime and therefore carry a gun than a white kid in a predominantly white (affluent) neighbourhood.

Me stating that isn't racist, it's cold hard (sadly) fact.

Now the underlying reasons as to why this is may well be racism. But the end result is that cops are less likely to take chances in such neighbourhoods.

It's no less different than one of us perhaps feeling less comfortable walking alone at night through Cherry Orchard (or any number of estates in Limerick lets say) than walking through Donnybrook.

Prejudice indeed, but prejudice based on facts

Pumpkinseeds · 24-11-2014 03:18PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Yeah if it was my son I'd be asking myself a lot of questions this morning such as.

* Who shot my son
* What is their badge number?
* Exactly why did you have to kill him , he's 12.
* Why did they shoot my 12 year old child, children make mistakes and aren't always fully aware of the implications of their actions or risks.
* Where does this cop live and does he have family.
* What will I have to get in order before I go to jail myself.
* Where can I get a real gun to use on the prick that killed my child.

The rest of us would be judging you and asking

* Where exactly did this kid get the gun?
* What exactly were the parents thinking letting him have it?
* What was he thinking bringing the gun to school with him?
* What was he thinking waving it at other kids?
* What kind of gobsh*te parents did this kid have?

*Will the police officer who shot him have counselling to help them with the trauma?

Putinovsky · 24-11-2014 03:22PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

How about asking

* Why did my son, when asked to put his hands up, instead reach for the gun?
* Why did he think it was a good idea to go around point a very real looking firearm at people?

*He's a 12 year old kid, he was probably taking it out to show them it wasn't real. This is all a misunderstanding, considering he wasn't doing anything wrong and was a kid he probably didn't appreciate how close he was to being pumped full of bullets.

*He's a 12 year old kid, what do you think kids do with toy guns?

Here's a question

*Why does it always tend to be black kids shot mistakenly dead by US police?

*If that was a white kid do you think police would have been more likely to consider that it was probably a toy gun (seeing this was even said to the dispatcher) and less likely to open fire before the kid even had the gun in his hand

*Why do we take the accounts of the two people implicated in the shooting as gospel?

Considering this was a black kid in the playground this has all the hallmarks of nervous, trigger happy US cops losing their cool and being affected by racist profiling.

Irishcrx · 24-11-2014 03:24PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The rest of us would be judging you and asking

* Where exactly did this kid get the gun?
* What exactly were the parents thinking letting him have it?
* What was he thinking bringing the gun to school with him?
* What was he thinking waving it at other kids?
* What kind of gobsh*te parents did this kid have?

*Will the police officer who shot him have counselling to help them with the trauma?

Hang on now , how do you know it's anything to do with the parents, kids do a lot of stupid thing's it's part of growing up. I played with toy guns when I was younger , played cops and robbers as we all did.

Maybe they didn't know he had it , maybe some other kid gave it to him, maybe he had no idea of the implications that could happen. He's a child FFS.

The cop is not a child , he is meant to be a trained professional able to deal with situations like this. Trauma for him? Boo hoo you shot a ****ing 12 year old child and killed him, fact is the cops in the US are not by the whole highly trained , intelligent and are far far too trigger happy. Situation could have been resolved without killing him.

So yes , if it was my child despite what people may think of my parenting I'd know I had nothing to do with the incident and I absolutely would want answers and justice for what happened.

If I didn't , well then I wouldn't be a very good parent.

AudreyHepburn · 24-11-2014 03:29PM

Putinovsky wrote: »

*He's a 12 year old kid, he was probably taking it out to show them it wasn't real. This is all a misunderstanding, considering he wasn't doing anything wrong and was a kid he probably didn't appreciate how close he was to being pumped full of bullets.

*He's a 12 year old kid, what do you think kids do with toy guns?

Here's a question

*Why does it always tend to be black kids shot mistakenly dead by US police?

Racial profiling in most cases, though not all. I don't deny that it happens nor am I saying it didn't happen here.

In truth we don't know what happened for certain.

*If that was a white kid do you think police would have been more likely to consider that it was probably a toy gun (seeing this was even said to the dispatcher) and less likely to open fire before the kid even had the gun in his hand

If the white kid, when asked to raise his hands, instead reached for the gun, I'd imagine the reaction of the police would be the same as it was here.

*Why do we take the accounts of the two people implicated in the shooting as gospel?

Considering this was a black kid in the playground this has all the hallmarks of nervous, trigger happy US cops losing their cool and being affected by racist profiling.

I take nothing as gospel which is why I am not automatically assuming the police are 100% at fault here.

We don't know the boy's color had anything to do with either.

Let's not jump to conclusions here....this is terrible for all involved and pointing fingers won't help anything.

A family has lost their son a month before Christmas. A police officer is going to have live with the fact that he shot an innocent child. No-one wins here, both sides have lost something.

Pumpkinseeds · 24-11-2014 03:30PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Hang on now , how do you know it's anything to do with the parents, kids do a lot of stupid thing's it's part of growing up. I played with toy guns when I was younger , played cops and robbers as we all did.

Maybe they didn't know he had it , maybe some other kid gave it to him, maybe he had no idea of the implications that could happen. He's a child FFS.

The cop is not a child , he is meant to be a trained professional able to deal with situations like this. Trauma for him? Boo hoo you shot a ****ing 12 year old child and killed him, fact is the cops in the US are not by the whole highly trained , intelligent and are far far too trigger happy. Situation could have been resolved without killing him.

So yes , if it was my child despite what people may think of my parenting I'd know I had nothing to do with the incident and I absolutely would want answers and justice for what happened.

If I didn't , well then I wouldn't be a very good parent.

Was your toy gun an Airsoft gun modified to look like the real thing?
Was there a high rate of gun crime in your neighbourhood?

The kid is dead. He shouldn't have had the gun, if he hadn't brought it to school with him then he wouldn't be dead. My sympathies are with the person who shot him. 12 is old enough to know that it's a fcuking stupid idea to take a replica gun to school and as a 'racially' profiled minority he should have known better. I wonder if the backlash of rioting by the black community of that town will kick off tonight or if they'll wait to destroy the town of Ferguson when the verdict comes in on that shooting this week. A bit of personal responsibility is called for.

What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

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