What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

IrishAlice

A 12 year old boy was shot and killed for waving around a replica gun in a playground. The person who called 911 said in the call it looked like a replica gun!

Am I wrong in thinking this is absolutely insane or was the officer right to shoot?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1124/661977-cleveland-shooting/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30172433

looksee

'all toy guns to be brightly coloured' - how about no toy guns at all, or change the gun laws. Or both.

whomitconcerns

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no matter what anyone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to save more lives, greater good argument. Unfortunately it was a fake and he did die

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original article had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

However, I still stand by, in the US under current law and situations, the police had no option here.

(Edited as the boy was unfortuntely actually killed according to updated news reports)

IrishAlice

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Yea I read the story, did you? Because it says the child was killed.

whiskeyman

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.hough

He is dead.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433

A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after carrying what turned out to be a replica gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

One of the officers was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

The medical examiner for Cuyahoga County identified the boy as Tamir Rice.

The boy was shot on Saturday afternoon and died in hospital early on Sunday morning.

'Airsoft'

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

The boy did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers, Mr Tomba added.


An investigation is now under way into the shooting of Tamir Rice
Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed.

The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his trousers. "I don't know if it's real or not," the caller told police.

But Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland police association, said the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments.

The BBC's David Willis in Washington says an investigation is under way and both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

He says there have already been calls for tighter controls on fake guns, with one local lawmaker - Alicia Reece - saying she intends to introduce legislation that would require fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured.

A lawyer for Rice's family, Timothy Kucharski, told the BBC that he would be conducting an investigation, in "parallel" to the police, in order to establish exactly what happened.

"If in fact we determine that Tamir's rights are violated, we will proceed with civil action against the police," he said.

Cleveland's police force has come under increased scrutiny in recent years, most notably over a high-profile car chase in 2012 that ended with two deaths and officers firing 137 shots.

The US Justice Department is currently conducting an investigation of the force's pursuit and use-of-force practices.

Graces7

However useless the Gardai seem here we do not have this kind of trigger happy behaviour going on...yes, thankful it was dealt with as it was but children playing with guns and killing others is too frequent an event. Had this been an adult?

legrand

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

The are many media reports that state the boy was in fact killed with a 'shot to the torso'. More shoot to kill imo.

The_Valeyard

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

I also read the child later died in hospital.

Horrible situation for all involved.

RIP

Canis Lupus

It's impossible to say really... but based on the articles I've read it just strikes me as a mess from all sides.

wexie

Graces7 wrote: »

However useless the Gardai seem here we do not have this kind of trigger happy behaviour going on..

It's also a lot less likely for 12 year olds to be going around with actual guns here. Which seems to happen frequently enough in the US.

MistyCheese

looksee wrote: »

'all toy guns to be brightly coloured' - how about no toy guns at all, or change the gun laws. Or both.

I personally prefer no real guns at all.

looksee

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

Yes I did read the whole article, and I was referring to a call for toy guns to be brightly coloured, I am saying that in the environment of adult enthusiasm for waving and using guns, it would be better if children did not have them at all, real or toy. It would be better if adults did nto have them either, but that is asking too much, baby steps.

At one time in the UK you would see almost all small boys with a toy 'cowboy' gun, then there was a swing in public opinion against toy guns, and now you rarely see children playing with replica guns.

threeball

MistyCheese wrote: »

I personally prefer no real guns at all.

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

marketty

George Carlin said it best 'Now they're talking about banning toy guns, and keeping the f*ckin real ones!'

SpaceTime

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

They're all trigger happy!

IrishAlice

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

mikemac1

That RTE article is difficult to read and a bit all over the place

SEPT 23 1989

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

IrishAlice

mikemac1 wrote: »

That RTE article is difficult to read and a bit all over the place

Fair point, I edited the original post to include the additional link that someone later posted from the bbc website.

martineatworld

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

They're all trigger happy!

If someone waves a realistic replica gun at you when you tell them to put up their hands, I think it's prudent to assume they're armed and dangerous?

threeball

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

Are you sure your user name shouldn't be Sept 11 2001?

SpaceTime

Sadly, over there they'll just think like that because it's not unheard of for young teens to have real guns.

School shootings are a regular occurrence over there now to the point that some schools put students through airport style metal detectors just in case.

When you've a society that heavily armed people get shot and accidents happen.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

MistyCheese

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

The problem with that is that if the police did think it was a real gun and they only shot at his feet the boy could shoot at them. Because there are so many guns in circulation one could assume that there's a very real chance it may be a real gun. So it's a real 'shoot or be shot' mentality.

wexie

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

I think it's probably more a 'shoot for centre mass' policy as that's the biggest target (moves less as well), unfortunately that's just where all the important bits are.

Graces7

threeball wrote: »

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

no youd all be shot dead,,, glad I never go to the cinema if folk pull knives all the time

SpaceTime

That's why they go so crazy about ensuring that they can see your hands if you're pulled over too.
Never, ever reach for the floor or the glove compartment unexpectedly or get out of the car if not specifically asked. Just keep your hands on the wheel visibly.

discus

The parents were quick enough to get a lawyer asap, yet allowed their child to run around harassing people with a replica firearm. They have a lot to answer for.

Tokyo

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

IrishAlice wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

Have you fired many weapons? Now imagine firing at a 12 year old sized target to disarm rather than to kill, over a reasonable distance and under stress (the officers had no way of knowing that the toy gun being raised towards them wasn't real)? Shooting someone's feet doesn't disarm them - quite the opposite, it can piss them off or make them react.

Don't get me wrong - I think that a lot of cases that have come to light recently display a distinct level of heavy-handedness on the part of the police, but in this case, I'm not so sure. If the reports I've read are to be believed, they asked the kid twice to put his hands up (presumably at gunpoint) which he ignored. And then pulled an unmarked replica from his waistband. Certainly doesn't sound like they went in there all guns blazing.

wexie

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's why they go so crazy about ensuring that they can see your hands if you're pulled over too.
Never, ever reach for the floor or the glove compartment unexpectedly or get out of the car if not specifically asked. Just keep your hands on the wheel visibly.

yup, been plenty of incidents where people where shot for reaching under the seats and turns out that's where they kept their wallets.....or guns....

Police simply don't take any chances.

If this had been an adult (black, lets be honest) male waving a gun around in a playground (real or not) it'd have been written off as suicide by cop.

threeball

Graces7 wrote: »

no youd all be shot dead,,, glad I never go to the cinema if folk pull knives all the time

The irony got a bit lost on you there

TommyKnocker

martineatworld wrote: »

I'd someone waves a realistic replica gun at you when you tell them to put up their hands, I think it's prudent to assume they're armed and dangerous?

In the report I read on this yesterday it said that the gun was in the belt of his trousers and when challenged by the police he reached for the gun and was subsequently shot. If this is the case, then maybe he was about to remove the gun from his belt and drop it, who knows.

Also in the report yesterday there was the audio of the 911 call where at one point the operator asks the person making the report if the child was black or white and is told black. So maybe there was some racial profiling involved also. Again who knows?

In saying the above, Airsoft replicas are realistic looking, often down to having the exact same trade marks as the real steel version. They often weigh the same and break down the same. In the US they are sold with a 1" red flash at the top of the muzzle to distinguish them from the real steel version. In the US it is illegal to remove this red flash and you would not be allowed on a Airsoft gaming Site with the red flash removed.

The gun pictured in the report yesterday had had the red flash removed, making it harder to distinguish between a replica and the real steel version. Airsoft replicas have been used here in Ireland in shop hold ups. Even to people used to seeing and handling firearms they can be pretty convincing.

In Ireland and around Europe it is illegal to have an Airsoft replica out in public and visible, outside of a gaming site. Not sure what the law on this is like in the US.

I think these factors put the police in a difficult situation. At 12 years old if a guard had of shouted "Hands up" to me I think I might have wet myself. As I said above, maybe the kid was going to remove the gun from is belt and drop it. BUT, if it had been a real gun and the kid removed it and shot someone or the police officer, then there would be people asking why the police allowed that to happen. So damned if they do and damned if they don't.

DeadHand

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

That's a reasonable and prudent assumption for that part of the world.

anto3473

IrishAlice wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

Shooting accurately is not as easy as you see in the movies, police are trained to shoot for center mass since it is a bigger target and can be hit more reliably - and when hit rapidly takes the person out of the fight.

Unfortunately that area also contains the vital organs are and sometimes the person who was shot dies.

Shooting someone in the feet is a lot harder to do and even if you do hit them you now have a very annoyed armed person who you have started a gunfight with, this is not good for anyone nearby.

I know it was a toy gun but have you seen any airsoft guns recently? They are generally replicas of popular actual firearms and you would in some cases actually have to pick one up and look at it to tell the difference.

According to the article the kid was told to put his hands up but instead reached for his toy gun. I wouldn't blame the cop so much - death by misadventure would be more accurate.

Tail Docker

If it was a white kid in a rich Beverly Hills neighborhood, I wonder would the same result have occurred.

MistyCheese

Guns need to have software which can be disabled by the authorities in cases like this. Of course there will be people with the skills to disable such a feature but it would surely help.

_Brian

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

wexie

MistyCheese wrote: »

Guns need to have software which can be disabled by the authorities in cases like this. Of course there will be people with the skills to disable such a feature but it would surely help.

You want WIFI enabled guns so they can be switched off? Retroactively fitted to all guns in circulation?

While it wouldn't be a bad idea it's somewhat impractical to implement at this stage

Gatling

Ott reaction again from cops they will never learn .
At no stage should the officers involved have even drawn there guns .
Kid could have easily man handled and disarmed .

I remember in the 80 ' s various US States made it law all toy guns had to be bright colored to make sure incidents didn't happen but then gangs started painting there guns the same colours as toys making it difficult for police to deal with .
Better training and better officers are needed

Strong Life in Dublin

MistyCheese wrote: »

The problem with that is that if the police did think it was a real gun and they only shot at his feet the boy could shoot at them. Because there are so many guns in circulation one could assume that there's a very real chance it may be a real gun. So it's a real 'shoot or be shot' mentality.

Well that's the only way of doing it, it's not like in the movie where you can shoot them in the leg and they are no longer a threat. Nope you have to shoot to kill or else you will end up dead

MistyCheese

Obviously you can't recall every gun out there and retrofit them with software. Guns that are currently in circulation in the general public are hardware, I don't know how you'd install software in a Glock or a shotgun.

I meant start now making guns which can be disabled by the relevant authorities. Make very different bullets for them too, bullets that won't go into current firearms. Try to let all current non-software guns die out. Stop making the bullets for them. Yes there will still be black market bullet makers (but if the price of bullets is pushed up this can only be a good thing) but just because this suggestion can't conclusively fix the entire problem doesn't mean it can't help.

Strong Life in Dublin

_Brian wrote: »

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

Holy sh*t look at this guy. Let me explain:

1). A leg shot is not easy, especially if the are moving
2). 9/10 a shot to the leg will not immobilize the person


Look what happens when you don't shoot to kill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMgG_FI2gI

anto3473

_Brian wrote: »

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

A persons legs are smaller than than torso. They also move twice as much relative to the torso. They are harder to hit and don't necessarily stop a person when shot.

I'm no gun expert either, Ive only ever shot non moving things like bottles or target cards but I know that even breathing at the wrong time can cause you to clip the edge of a target rather than hit the bulls eye you hit earlier on the same target. Yeah its easy if you can take your time, aim properly and focus shooting a moving person is more difficult I would think.

Gatling

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

Holy sh*t look at this guy. Let me explain:

1). A leg shot is not easy, especially if the are moving
2). 9/10 a shot to the leg will not immobilize the person


Look what happens when you don't shoot to kill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMgG_FI2gI

Multiple cops killed ehhhhhh No

Thats not what happened at all

Strong Life in Dublin

Gatling wrote: »

Multiple cops killed ehhhhhh No

Thats not what happened at all

Where did I say "Multiple cops killed"? But they very well could of been.

Grab All Association

Ohio is becoming more and more like a southern state. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/20/ohio-heartbeat-bill_n_6193534.html
Joe Squakbox is from Ohio. So was my ex (she wasn't as stupid as him)

kylith

Why the hell didn't they use beanbag or taser rounds if they were so worried that it might be a real gun?

America: where they shoot people with replica guns and give real ones out as prizes.

bb1234567

threeball wrote: »

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

seriously? Do you not remember that guy who shot a dozen people dead in a cinema in colorado last summer
If everyone having guns meant it made a country safer then the usa would be the safest country in the world

bb1234567

I wasnt able to find out, but Im guessing by the lack of rage over race relations that the police officer who shot him was also black

Markcheese

That is a good reason why we don't have ordinarily armed gardai... Regular gardai would have probably cleared the area and called in the ERU or RSU, who are trained to deal with difficult situations- and have the equipment...

Lemming

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

At risk of being serious on an AH thread ... there is no such thing as "shoot to kill" unless you're talking about follow-up shots to the head whilst a target is already immobilised, i.e. execution; it's simply "shoot the target centre mass; if they live they live. If they die they die".

Shooting the ground at a targets feet will make them react. If they flinch, they might pull the trigger of a gun accidentally, or by design. Either way, a bullet is now travelling somewhere and it has to stop somewhere. Possibly in an innocent third party ... And what if the bullet fired at the ground ricochets? Same problem. It has to stop somewhere else.

Aim to wound/disarm, gun software killswitches, etc.? This isn't Holywood.

A very sad incident all told and the police officers involved do have some questions to answer yet, such as whether they could have physically bodychecked the boy or they racially profiled and just 'assumed' the worst because of skin colour. But at the same time - and doubly so because this is the USA we're talking about - if you wave a replica gun about in public, you deserve everything you're gonna get ... Where were the parents in taking an interest in what the boy liked to get up to, or in him having a replica (doesn't matter if it was airsoft/water pistol/spudgun) and then not being educated on the dangers of waving it about?