What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

TommyKnocker · 24-11-2014 10:36AM

martineatworld wrote: »

I'd someone waves a realistic replica gun at you when you tell them to put up their hands, I think it's prudent to assume they're armed and dangerous?

In the report I read on this yesterday it said that the gun was in the belt of his trousers and when challenged by the police he reached for the gun and was subsequently shot. If this is the case, then maybe he was about to remove the gun from his belt and drop it, who knows.

Also in the report yesterday there was the audio of the 911 call where at one point the operator asks the person making the report if the child was black or white and is told black. So maybe there was some racial profiling involved also. Again who knows?

In saying the above, Airsoft replicas are realistic looking, often down to having the exact same trade marks as the real steel version. They often weigh the same and break down the same. In the US they are sold with a 1" red flash at the top of the muzzle to distinguish them from the real steel version. In the US it is illegal to remove this red flash and you would not be allowed on a Airsoft gaming Site with the red flash removed.

The gun pictured in the report yesterday had had the red flash removed, making it harder to distinguish between a replica and the real steel version. Airsoft replicas have been used here in Ireland in shop hold ups. Even to people used to seeing and handling firearms they can be pretty convincing.

In Ireland and around Europe it is illegal to have an Airsoft replica out in public and visible, outside of a gaming site. Not sure what the law on this is like in the US.

I think these factors put the police in a difficult situation. At 12 years old if a guard had of shouted "Hands up" to me I think I might have wet myself. As I said above, maybe the kid was going to remove the gun from is belt and drop it. BUT, if it had been a real gun and the kid removed it and shot someone or the police officer, then there would be people asking why the police allowed that to happen. So damned if they do and damned if they don't.

DeadHand · 24-11-2014 10:41AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

That's a reasonable and prudent assumption for that part of the world.

anto3473 · 24-11-2014 10:41AM

IrishAlice wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

Shooting accurately is not as easy as you see in the movies, police are trained to shoot for center mass since it is a bigger target and can be hit more reliably - and when hit rapidly takes the person out of the fight.

Unfortunately that area also contains the vital organs are and sometimes the person who was shot dies.

Shooting someone in the feet is a lot harder to do and even if you do hit them you now have a very annoyed armed person who you have started a gunfight with, this is not good for anyone nearby.

I know it was a toy gun but have you seen any airsoft guns recently? They are generally replicas of popular actual firearms and you would in some cases actually have to pick one up and look at it to tell the difference.

According to the article the kid was told to put his hands up but instead reached for his toy gun. I wouldn't blame the cop so much - death by misadventure would be more accurate.

Tail Docker · 24-11-2014 10:42AM

If it was a white kid in a rich Beverly Hills neighborhood, I wonder would the same result have occurred.

MistyCheese · 24-11-2014 10:46AM

Guns need to have software which can be disabled by the authorities in cases like this. Of course there will be people with the skills to disable such a feature but it would surely help.

_Brian · 24-11-2014 10:48AM

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

wexie · 24-11-2014 10:49AM

MistyCheese wrote: »

Guns need to have software which can be disabled by the authorities in cases like this. Of course there will be people with the skills to disable such a feature but it would surely help.

You want WIFI enabled guns so they can be switched off? Retroactively fitted to all guns in circulation?

While it wouldn't be a bad idea it's somewhat impractical to implement at this stage

Gatling · 24-11-2014 10:52AM

Ott reaction again from cops they will never learn .
At no stage should the officers involved have even drawn there guns .
Kid could have easily man handled and disarmed .

I remember in the 80 ' s various US States made it law all toy guns had to be bright colored to make sure incidents didn't happen but then gangs started painting there guns the same colours as toys making it difficult for police to deal with .
Better training and better officers are needed

Strong Life in Dublin · 24-11-2014 10:56AM

MistyCheese wrote: »

The problem with that is that if the police did think it was a real gun and they only shot at his feet the boy could shoot at them. Because there are so many guns in circulation one could assume that there's a very real chance it may be a real gun. So it's a real 'shoot or be shot' mentality.

Well that's the only way of doing it, it's not like in the movie where you can shoot them in the leg and they are no longer a threat. Nope you have to shoot to kill or else you will end up dead

MistyCheese · 24-11-2014 10:56AM

Obviously you can't recall every gun out there and retrofit them with software. Guns that are currently in circulation in the general public are hardware, I don't know how you'd install software in a Glock or a shotgun.

I meant start now making guns which can be disabled by the relevant authorities. Make very different bullets for them too, bullets that won't go into current firearms. Try to let all current non-software guns die out. Stop making the bullets for them. Yes there will still be black market bullet makers (but if the price of bullets is pushed up this can only be a good thing) but just because this suggestion can't conclusively fix the entire problem doesn't mean it can't help.

Strong Life in Dublin · 24-11-2014 11:12AM

_Brian wrote: »

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

Holy sh*t look at this guy. Let me explain:

1). A leg shot is not easy, especially if the are moving
2). 9/10 a shot to the leg will not immobilize the person

Look what happens when you don't shoot to kill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMgG_FI2gI

anto3473 · 24-11-2014 11:17AM

_Brian wrote: »

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.
I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..
I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

A persons legs are smaller than than torso. They also move twice as much relative to the torso. They are harder to hit and don't necessarily stop a person when shot.

I'm no gun expert either, Ive only ever shot non moving things like bottles or target cards but I know that even breathing at the wrong time can cause you to clip the edge of a target rather than hit the bulls eye you hit earlier on the same target. Yeah its easy if you can take your time, aim properly and focus shooting a moving person is more difficult I would think.

Gatling · 24-11-2014 11:18AM

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

Holy sh*t look at this guy. Let me explain:

1). A leg shot is not easy, especially if the are moving
2). 9/10 a shot to the leg will not immobilize the person

Look what happens when you don't shoot to kill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMgG_FI2gI

Multiple cops killed ehhhhhh No

Thats not what happened at all

Strong Life in Dublin · 24-11-2014 11:23AM

Gatling wrote: »

Multiple cops killed ehhhhhh No

Thats not what happened at all

Where did I say "Multiple cops killed"? But they very well could of been.

Grab All Association · 24-11-2014 11:27AM

Ohio is becoming more and more like a southern state. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/20/ohio-heartbeat-bill_n_6193534.html
Joe Squakbox is from Ohio. So was my ex (she wasn't as stupid as him)

kylith · 24-11-2014 11:31AM

Why the hell didn't they use beanbag or taser rounds if they were so worried that it might be a real gun?

America: where they shoot people with replica guns and give real ones out as prizes.

bb1234567 · 24-11-2014 11:47AM

threeball wrote: »

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

seriously? Do you not remember that guy who shot a dozen people dead in a cinema in colorado last summer
If everyone having guns meant it made a country safer then the usa would be the safest country in the world

bb1234567 · 24-11-2014 11:52AM

I wasnt able to find out, but Im guessing by the lack of rage over race relations that the police officer who shot him was also black

Markcheese · 24-11-2014 11:59AM

That is a good reason why we don't have ordinarily armed gardai... Regular gardai would have probably cleared the area and called in the ERU or RSU, who are trained to deal with difficult situations- and have the equipment...

Lemming · 24-11-2014 12:05PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

At risk of being serious on an AH thread ... there is no such thing as "shoot to kill" unless you're talking about follow-up shots to the head whilst a target is already immobilised, i.e. execution; it's simply "shoot the target centre mass; if they live they live. If they die they die".

Shooting the ground at a targets feet will make them react. If they flinch, they might pull the trigger of a gun accidentally, or by design. Either way, a bullet is now travelling somewhere and it has to stop somewhere. Possibly in an innocent third party ... And what if the bullet fired at the ground ricochets? Same problem. It has to stop somewhere else.

Aim to wound/disarm, gun software killswitches, etc.? This isn't Holywood.

A very sad incident all told and the police officers involved do have some questions to answer yet, such as whether they could have physically bodychecked the boy or they racially profiled and just 'assumed' the worst because of skin colour. But at the same time - and doubly so because this is the USA we're talking about - if you wave a replica gun about in public, you deserve everything you're gonna get ... Where were the parents in taking an interest in what the boy liked to get up to, or in him having a replica (doesn't matter if it was airsoft/water pistol/spudgun) and then not being educated on the dangers of waving it about?

kylith · 24-11-2014 12:07PM

threeball wrote: »

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

Yeah, because a bunch of armed, panicking people in a dimly lit environment where they can't see who might or might not be a threat, and where people are running around totally isn't a recipe for tragedy. :rolleyes:

SpaceTime · 24-11-2014 12:36PM

Hmm... the likelihood of having a knife pulled on you in the cinema in Ireland or the United States is exceedingly low. It's up there with being hit by a meteor in the back of the head while walking the dog or having a 747 land on you.

You're millions of times more likely to be killed by slipping in the shower.

Witcher · 24-11-2014 12:44PM

kylith wrote: »

Why the hell didn't they use beanbag or taser rounds if they were so worried that it might be a real gun?

America: where they shoot people with replica guns and give real ones out as prizes.

No beanbag shotgun and too far to use a taser probably.

kylith · 24-11-2014 12:47PM

Strider wrote: »

No beanbag shotgun and too far to use a taser probably.

You can get self-contained taser rounds for shotguns; the battery etc. is contained in the shell. If you're in shotgun range you're in taser range.

Witcher · 24-11-2014 12:48PM

kylith wrote: »

You can get self-contained taser rounds for shotguns; the battery etc. is contained in the shell. If you're in shotgun range you're in taser range.

Yeah but were they carrying a shotgun?

All well and good saying you can get X and Y but if you don't have it with you it's worth fcuk all.

kylith · 24-11-2014 12:52PM

Strider wrote: »

Yeah but were they carrying a shotgun?

All well and good saying you can get X and Y but if you don't have it with you it's worth fcuk all.

Granted, but I think they should be part of the standard issue if they're not already. Shouldn't the cops should always look to incapacitate rather than kill? Beanbag rounds, taser shells, and other non-lethal* ammunitions are decidedly less likely to kill someone than actual bullets.

*not a guarantee

Flibbles · 24-11-2014 12:52PM

_Brian wrote: »

Why always a kill shot !!

I've only shot a hand gun once, its not all that hard to be accurate.

In a controlled environment, without the risk of being shot at I'll presume?

I often wonder why suspects like this can't be shot in the legs and rendered immobile. These people are supposed to be trained to deal with high pressure situations and make appropriate decisions. Surely the decision to make a non-fatal shot could be made..

As has been said many times, a leg shot doesn't just make a person unable to move, it makes them angry and gives an adrenaline rush, the last thing you'd want in that situation. And again, hitting a leg in those circumstances would be a small miracle.

I fear that they full know that making the kill shot will be defended no matter what because of the underlying gun culture.

Had they shot in the leg as you state, and the assailant had a real weapon and started firing all around, people like yourself would likely be blaming the police for giving them the opportunity to continue firing.

noodler · 24-11-2014 12:54PM

BBC say the gun was not pointed at the officers.

Witcher · 24-11-2014 12:56PM

noodler wrote: »

BBC say the gun was not pointed at the officers.

Just putting his hand on it was enough, do you think the cops are going to wait until it's pointed at them before they fire?

Pumpkinseeds · 24-11-2014 12:59PM

With the number of kids going on killing sprees in American schools it's hardly surprising that the police shot the kid. If it had been a real gun and the kid had shot and injured/killed other school kids people would have been criticising the cop for not shooting. The cop had to make a judgement call and he made it. It's as simple as that.

What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

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