What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

IrishAlice · 24-11-2014 09:33AM #1

A 12 year old boy was shot and killed for waving around a replica gun in a playground. The person who called 911 said in the call it looked like a replica gun!

Am I wrong in thinking this is absolutely insane or was the officer right to shoot?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1124/661977-cleveland-shooting/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30172433

looksee · 24-11-2014 09:37AM

'all toy guns to be brightly coloured' - how about no toy guns at all, or change the gun laws. Or both.

whomitconcerns · 24-11-2014 09:37AM

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no matter what anyone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to save more lives, greater good argument. Unfortunately it was a fake and he did die

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original article had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

However, I still stand by, in the US under current law and situations, the police had no option here.

(Edited as the boy was unfortuntely actually killed according to updated news reports)

IrishAlice · 24-11-2014 09:41AM

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Yea I read the story, did you? Because it says the child was killed.

whiskeyman · 24-11-2014 09:42AM

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.hough

He is dead.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433

A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after carrying what turned out to be a replica gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

One of the officers was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

The medical examiner for Cuyahoga County identified the boy as Tamir Rice.

The boy was shot on Saturday afternoon and died in hospital early on Sunday morning.

'Airsoft'

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

The boy did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers, Mr Tomba added.

An investigation is now under way into the shooting of Tamir Rice
Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed.

The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his trousers. "I don't know if it's real or not," the caller told police.

But Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland police association, said the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments.

The BBC's David Willis in Washington says an investigation is under way and both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

He says there have already been calls for tighter controls on fake guns, with one local lawmaker - Alicia Reece - saying she intends to introduce legislation that would require fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured.

A lawyer for Rice's family, Timothy Kucharski, told the BBC that he would be conducting an investigation, in "parallel" to the police, in order to establish exactly what happened.

"If in fact we determine that Tamir's rights are violated, we will proceed with civil action against the police," he said.

Cleveland's police force has come under increased scrutiny in recent years, most notably over a high-profile car chase in 2012 that ended with two deaths and officers firing 137 shots.

The US Justice Department is currently conducting an investigation of the force's pursuit and use-of-force practices.

Graces7 · 24-11-2014 09:42AM

However useless the Gardai seem here we do not have this kind of trigger happy behaviour going on...yes, thankful it was dealt with as it was but children playing with guns and killing others is too frequent an event. Had this been an adult?

legrand · 24-11-2014 09:42AM

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

The are many media reports that state the boy was in fact killed with a 'shot to the torso'. More shoot to kill imo.

The_Valeyard · 24-11-2014 09:42AM

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

I also read the child later died in hospital.

Horrible situation for all involved.

RIP

Canis Lupus · 24-11-2014 09:46AM

It's impossible to say really... but based on the articles I've read it just strikes me as a mess from all sides.

wexie · 24-11-2014 09:47AM

Graces7 wrote: »

However useless the Gardai seem here we do not have this kind of trigger happy behaviour going on..

It's also a lot less likely for 12 year olds to be going around with actual guns here. Which seems to happen frequently enough in the US.

MistyCheese · 24-11-2014 09:52AM

looksee wrote: »

'all toy guns to be brightly coloured' - how about no toy guns at all, or change the gun laws. Or both.

I personally prefer no real guns at all.

looksee · 24-11-2014 09:57AM

whomitconcerns wrote: »

did you read the article. The "gun" was a heavy duty replica with the orange safety marker removed, no reason for the cop to assume that it was fake, no mater what anytone thought.

He pointed it directly at the police when challanged and asked to disarm. They shot to disarm. Hes not dead and very lucky that the cop was a good shot.

Its a VERY misleading and slanted headline on the RTE website. the original artickle had more details, I m not sure where I read it though

Yes I did read the whole article, and I was referring to a call for toy guns to be brightly coloured, I am saying that in the environment of adult enthusiasm for waving and using guns, it would be better if children did not have them at all, real or toy. It would be better if adults did nto have them either, but that is asking too much, baby steps.

At one time in the UK you would see almost all small boys with a toy 'cowboy' gun, then there was a swing in public opinion against toy guns, and now you rarely see children playing with replica guns.

threeball · 24-11-2014 09:58AM

MistyCheese wrote: »

I personally prefer no real guns at all.

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

marketty · 24-11-2014 10:01AM

George Carlin said it best 'Now they're talking about banning toy guns, and keeping the f*ckin real ones!'

SpaceTime · 24-11-2014 10:07AM

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

They're all trigger happy!

IrishAlice · 24-11-2014 10:08AM

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

mikemac1 · 24-11-2014 10:08AM

That RTE article is difficult to read and a bit all over the place

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-11-2014 10:12AM

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

IrishAlice · 24-11-2014 10:12AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

That RTE article is difficult to read and a bit all over the place

Fair point, I edited the original post to include the additional link that someone later posted from the bbc website.

martineatworld · 24-11-2014 10:13AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem is they assume everyone is potentially armed and dangerous at all times.

They're all trigger happy!

If someone waves a realistic replica gun at you when you tell them to put up their hands, I think it's prudent to assume they're armed and dangerous?

threeball · 24-11-2014 10:14AM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If anybody was waving a gun around a playground where my kids were playing I would like to see them taken out ,,murdering him though was a bit heavy handed

Are you sure your user name shouldn't be Sept 11 2001?

SpaceTime · 24-11-2014 10:16AM

Sadly, over there they'll just think like that because it's not unheard of for young teens to have real guns.

School shootings are a regular occurrence over there now to the point that some schools put students through airport style metal detectors just in case.

When you've a society that heavily armed people get shot and accidents happen.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 24-11-2014 10:18AM

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

MistyCheese · 24-11-2014 10:19AM

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

The problem with that is that if the police did think it was a real gun and they only shot at his feet the boy could shoot at them. Because there are so many guns in circulation one could assume that there's a very real chance it may be a real gun. So it's a real 'shoot or be shot' mentality.

wexie · 24-11-2014 10:20AM

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

The US police have a shoot to kill policy as far as I am aware. If they shoot they don't try and wound they try to kill the target. Extremely sad story though.

I think it's probably more a 'shoot for centre mass' policy as that's the biggest target (moves less as well), unfortunately that's just where all the important bits are.

Graces7 · 24-11-2014 10:21AM

threeball wrote: »

Are you crazy? Next time you're in the cinema and someone pulls a knife you'll be sorry, cos if everyone else had a gun then you'd be safe as houses.

no youd all be shot dead,,, glad I never go to the cinema if folk pull knives all the time

SpaceTime · 24-11-2014 10:21AM

That's why they go so crazy about ensuring that they can see your hands if you're pulled over too.
Never, ever reach for the floor or the glove compartment unexpectedly or get out of the car if not specifically asked. Just keep your hands on the wheel visibly.

discus · 24-11-2014 10:25AM

The parents were quick enough to get a lawyer asap, yet allowed their child to run around harassing people with a replica firearm. They have a lot to answer for.

Tokyo · 24-11-2014 10:25AM

Vitalismith wrote: »

Ridiculous that they shot him, and even if you are going to shoot him, shoot at his feet for fukc sake.

IrishAlice wrote: »

This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard it on the radio driving to work this morning.

He's a child! Surely you should use appropriate caution and only shoot as a last resort.

It seems like the police are way too trigger happy.

Have you fired many weapons? Now imagine firing at a 12 year old sized target to disarm rather than to kill, over a reasonable distance and under stress (the officers had no way of knowing that the toy gun being raised towards them wasn't real)? Shooting someone's feet doesn't disarm them - quite the opposite, it can piss them off or make them react.

Don't get me wrong - I think that a lot of cases that have come to light recently display a distinct level of heavy-handedness on the part of the police, but in this case, I'm not so sure. If the reports I've read are to be believed, they asked the kid twice to put his hands up (presumably at gunpoint) which he ignored. And then pulled an unmarked replica from his waistband. Certainly doesn't sound like they went in there all guns blazing.

wexie · 24-11-2014 10:26AM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's why they go so crazy about ensuring that they can see your hands if you're pulled over too.
Never, ever reach for the floor or the glove compartment unexpectedly or get out of the car if not specifically asked. Just keep your hands on the wheel visibly.

yup, been plenty of incidents where people where shot for reaching under the seats and turns out that's where they kept their wallets.....or guns....

Police simply don't take any chances.

If this had been an adult (black, lets be honest) male waving a gun around in a playground (real or not) it'd have been written off as suicide by cop.

threeball · 24-11-2014 10:29AM

Graces7 wrote: »

no youd all be shot dead,,, glad I never go to the cinema if folk pull knives all the time

The irony got a bit lost on you there

What the hell is wrong with them in the USA!

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