Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

Tordelback · 21-11-2014 07:17PM

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again, that's no evidence that's he on the fiddle*. He could be on any number of legitimate schemes that allow him to work and retain some or all benefits. I work up to 7 days a week for myself and I collect Social Welfare money from my post office every week too - sometimes I have to take time off to do it, which feels ridiculous. In fact in February and March I was working across the road from the same PO, and was regularly in the queue covered in mud in my viz-jacket. Imagine the tales they all have to tell about me, but I am 100% on the level, and was actually encouraged by SW to take this path out of unemployment (which has worked very well for me, as it happens).

There's a perception here that defrauding SW is normal and virtually ubiquitous, and that leads to a confirmation bias in people's observations of their neighbours. This both encourages the practice, and winds up those who see themselves as paying for it. I wonder how significant an issue it actually is.

*Although he may well have been.

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 09:04PM

Putin wrote: »

You're paying more taxes because of the big boys and their white collar crime. They ran banks into the ground and we are paying for it. So Irish though, lets all go after the bottom feeders and leave the big sharks alone.

Your argument would be void if the banks didn't mess up despite welfare being a massive draw in the state finances way before the **** the fan .

ireland.man · 21-11-2014 09:08PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Your argument would be void if the banks didn't mess up despite welfare being a massive draw in the state finances way before the **** the fan .

You say "massive draw", do you know what was the estimated level of welfare fraud in the boom years? What details have you about pre-2007 levels of fraud, welfare levels, etc?

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 09:20PM

ireland.man wrote: »

You say "massive draw", do you know what was the estimated level of welfare fraud in the boom years? What details have you about pre-2007 levels of fraud, welfare levels, etc?

2007 OVERPAYMENTS from €50.5 million to €83.4 million in 2011
Rise of 65 percent
I take it you believe it was near to €2 million from 2003 to 2007 or possibly zero.

Electric Sheep · 21-11-2014 09:30PM

I wonder if there has been a resurgence of that other great 80s welfare fiddle - husband goes to England to work, sends home money every week, wife claims to be a deserted wife, gets what would now be called Single Parent Allowance.

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 09:44PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I wonder if there has been a resurgence of that other great 80s welfare fiddle - husband goes to England to work, sends home money every week, wife claims to be a deserted wife, gets what would now be called Single Parent Allowance.

Not at all. The idea of it
The fact that 40 percent of present gross government expenditure is on welfare payments would put that idea to bed.

SEPT 23 1989 · 21-11-2014 09:45PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I wonder if there has been a resurgence of that other great 80s welfare fiddle - husband goes to England to work, sends home money every week, wife claims to be a deserted wife, gets what would now be called Single Parent Allowance.

I can see that fiddle now in his white socks christmas jumper stone wash jeans and slip on shoes

ireland.man · 21-11-2014 10:27PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

2007 OVERPAYMENTS from €50.5 million to €83.4 million in 2011
Rise of 65 percent
I take it you believe it was near to €2 million from 2003 to 2007 or possibly zero.

No, I just wanted those statistics since I knew there's been a massive increase in fraud cases, it proves my point. For example, there were 621 people reporting others for fraud in 2005 compared to 17,000 in 2012!!

Of course 16,400 people didn't decide to report welfare fraud after they had a change of mentality. The increased rates of reporting show welfare fraud increased exponentially in the past five or eight years. That increased rate of fraud corresponds of course to when the economy imploded and people became desperate and found it many times harder to survive financially.

So let's forget the idea that dole cheats are eternally moral reprobates and see them in context. A financial catastrophe happened and massive amounts of people, for the first time, either felt the need or chose to continue to work and claim, sought extra payments they weren't eligible for, chose to continue living with their partners while claiming not to be, etc.

The majority of those 17000 people are not career criminals, conmen and women getting one over on the taxpayers for a decade. Those 17000 people are individuals who responded to an economic collapse in ways they probably felt was appropriate for themselves and their families. Reporting them isn't a civic duty, it's a miserable excuse to compound other people's misery and enjoy watching your neighbours squirm. If you really want to help society, go volunteer or campaign against tax breaks for wealthy companies or for increased sentences for white collar crime and leave the family who are struggling to have a decent standard of living alone.

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 10:40PM

ireland.man wrote: »

No, I just wanted those statistics since I knew there's been a massive increase in fraud cases, it proves my point. For example, there were 621 people reporting others for fraud in 2005 compared to 17,000 in 2012!!

Of course 16,400 people didn't decide to report welfare fraud after they had a change of mentality. The increased rates of reporting show welfare fraud increased exponentially in the past five or eight years. That increased rate of fraud corresponds of course to when the economy imploded and people became desperate and found it many times harder to survive financially.

So let's forget the idea that dole cheats are eternally moral reprobates and see them in context. A financial catastrophe happened and massive amounts of people, for the first time, either felt the need or chose to continue to work and claim, sought extra payments they weren't eligible for, chose to continue living with their partners while claiming not to be, etc.

The majority of those 17000 people are not career criminals, conmen and women getting one over on the taxpayers for a decade. Those 17000 people are individuals who responded to an economic collapse in ways they probably felt was appropriate for themselves and their families. Reporting them isn't a civic duty, it's a miserable excuse to compound other people's misery and enjoy watching your neighbours squirm. If you really want to help society, go volunteer or campaign against tax breaks for wealthy companies or for increased sentences for white collar crime and leave the family who are struggling to have a decent standard of living alone.

Define a decent standard of living?
TV? A car? Pints at the weekend ?food on the table?
There's no such thing as abject poverty in Ireland
Go to India and see what defines not having a decent standard of living
That's what is known as piss poor
You are justifying the fraudulent actions of people by claiming that they are surviving when the economy imploded.
Everyone took it in the neck but not all resorted to scamming the system even though they were in the same boat.

strobe · 21-11-2014 11:35PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Rained on with shiit? Get up the yard will ye.

We live in a first world western democracy with progressive income tax rates and an extremely generous welfare system, so much so that we borrow billions every year to pay for it. There are millions of people around the world who do get shat on every day but non of them live on this island. People who knowingly defraud social welfare might as well be waltzing into a shop and filling their pockets without paying. No difference.

Exactly. And the funny thing is. I didn't even order the salad.

strobe · 21-11-2014 11:35PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Rained on with shiit? Get up the yard will ye.

We live in a first world western democracy with progressive income tax rates and an extremely generous welfare system, so much so that we borrow billions every year to pay for it. There are millions of people around the world who do get shat on every day but non of them live on this island. People who knowingly defraud social welfare might as well be waltzing into a shop and filling their pockets without paying. No difference.

Exactly. And the funny thing is, I didn't even order the salad to begin with.

chicorytip · 21-11-2014 11:39PM

duckcfc wrote: »

In this new information highway age, that's not true because with the right person behind a computer, anything is possible. I even know someone who works in a dole office who actually told me who 2 informers where. Your a fool if you think everything is secret in this day and age!

Clear grounds for dismissal there.You just cannot have a situation where state employees can divulge what ought to be confidential information to a third party.Report that individual to his/her superiors.

Slot Machine · 22-11-2014 12:08AM

You'd swear some people on this thread never grew up, with their "grassing" and "rats", like we're all a bunch of kids on the playground. It's embarrassing.

darced · 22-11-2014 12:27AM

This post has been deleted.

Gannicus · 22-11-2014 01:04AM

Tordelback wrote: »

There's a perception here that defrauding SW is normal and virtually ubiquitous,

it is to a point... I grew up in a council estate where even to this day nearly 30 years ago it is not only not spoken of but it is condoned.

Tordelback wrote: »

that leads to a confirmation bias in people's observations of their neighbours. This both encourages the practice, and winds up those who see themselves as paying for it.

We are paying for it. It's not money that appears from nowhere as if by magic, it comes from tax paid by the working person and borrowed from Europe or the ICB.

Tordelback wrote: »

I wonder how significant an issue it actually is.

Obviously it is with the massive increase with people reporting welfare fraud. people have obviously had enough of paying for peoples unearned lifestyles.

B.A._Baracus · 22-11-2014 01:12AM

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Reality is 99% of people won't rat up a family member or friend they like.
But, and you can place a large sum of money on this :P , that most reports only go in because that person doesn't like or wants to 'hurt' the other person.

There was some article posted last year about the Social Welfare recieving a few thousand false reports. So am sure there does be quite a few curtain twitching going on... But most are just reported out of malice.

Wompa1 · 22-11-2014 02:01AM

Gannicus wrote: »

Obviously it is with the massive increase with people reporting welfare fraud. people have obviously had enough of paying for peoples unearned lifestyles.

Yip and completely picking this out of my hole BUT I'd say the way things are could also be a deterrent for some ambitious people.

osarusan · 22-11-2014 06:35AM

Depending on how much the family were bragging/gloating/living it up, i could see myself doing it.

Dont really get the argument that it's just a drop in the ocean either. All the debt is just drops in the ocean.

I might still put a plaster on a cut, even if there isn't much blood.

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 11:55AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

This may surprise you

Some don't :eek:

referring to the post re those claiming welfare contributing.. I have in the UK been on disablilty since my 20s. Now over 70. Not my fault and am and remain deeply thankful for the UK and Irish welfare system that is generous enough for me to live independently... I tried again and again to work to no avail

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 11:57AM

Beaner1 wrote: »

That's why a reasonable adult keeps a rainy day fund when times are food and doesn't spend or gamble every cent they get. I've no sympathy. I'm also fairly sure that emergency dentistry is covered by welfare.

No it isnt and has not been for a few years and also you cannot get dentures free any more either.

rottie 11 · 22-11-2014 12:08PM

People should mind their own business and worry about themselves.

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 12:11PM

I have never reported welfare fraud but I have reported someone to the revenue who was scamming old folk and not declaring it.

I have also reported hot food stallholders who were causing food poisoning. These calls were anonymous.

No real difference.

Care is needed of course as false reports can have terrible results. I have seen this almost happen when an emergency dr made a wrong assumption re the living arrangements of an very old maiden lady because a (male) neighbour was at the house to care for the old lady until the dr arrived. The distress caused was appalling. Another friend was falsely reported by a bank teller! Her solicitor was able to find out the source and the teller got sacked.

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 12:11PM

I have never reported welfare fraud but I have reported someone to the revenue who was scamming old folk and not declaring it.

I have also reported hot food stallholders who were causing food poisoning. These calls were anonymous.

No real difference.

Care is needed of course as false reports can have terrible results. I have seen this almost happen when an emergency dr made a wrong assumption re the living arrangements of an very old maiden lady because a (male) neighbour was at the house to care for the old lady until the dr arrived. The distress caused was appalling. Another friend was falsely reported by a bank teller! Her solicitor was able to find out the source and the teller got sacked.

ireland.man · 22-11-2014 12:15PM

Gannicus wrote: »

it is to a point... I grew up in a council estate where even to this day nearly 30 years ago it is not only not spoken of but it is condoned.

We are paying for it. It's not money that appears from nowhere as if by magic, it comes from tax paid by the working person and borrowed from Europe or the ICB.

Obviously it is with the massive increase with people reporting welfare fraud. people have obviously had enough of paying for peoples unearned lifestyles.

17000 people "suddenly haven't had enough", a jump from 600 people. It's a rise in fraud itself, not of people reporting. There's an increase in fraud because there's been an increase in hardship. The rates correlate exactly to the economic bust. So people are taking the decision, rightly or wrongly depending on your viewpoint, to do everything to make ends meet.

Criticise people for cheating the welfare system but let's not demonise them. Let's not talk about their lifestyles compared to India, let's not talk about them in feckless terms, let's not used tired cliches about the working class. And for god's sake let's not create a surveillance system whereby ordinary people inform on each other- it's not a clever way to rectify this problem and it'll be damaging to the social fabric in the long run.

P.K.M. · 22-11-2014 12:26PM

Would I be a rat on somebody, for doing something that doesn't affect me and that's none of my business? Em...NO!! Why would I?

Thankfully I'm in a position where I have two jobs, one Monday to Friday in a factory and the other, Friday night and Saturday night as a bouncer. I'm just keeping my head above water. But that wasn't the case a couple of years ago. What I was getting on the social didn't cover my bills, rent, general day-to-day living costs, so a had to do a few bits, nixers..part time jobs etc. to bump up my weekly coming in. I did what I had to to survive. My family comes first and I'll do what it takes to provide for them. Do I regret it? NO! Would I do it again if the same situation arose? YES!

Enter the nay-sayers, bitchers, begrudgers...

suicide_circus · 22-11-2014 12:33PM

P.K.M. wrote: »

Would I be a rat on somebody, for doing something that doesn't affect me and that's none of my business? Em...NO!! Why would I?

Thankfully I'm in a position where I have two jobs, one Monday to Friday in a factory and the other, Friday night and Saturday night as a bouncer. I'm just keeping my head above water. But that wasn't the case a couple of years ago. What I was getting on the social didn't cover my bills, rent, general day-to-day living costs, so a had to do a few bits, nixers..part time jobs etc. to bump up my weekly coming in. I did what I had to to survive. My family comes first and I'll do what it takes to provide for them. Do I regret it? NO! Would I do it again if the same situation arose? YES!

Enter the nay-sayers, bitchers, begrudgers...

Why didn't you just pull a phony insurance claim like pretending to slip on a wet floor in tesco? That could have bagged you 10+ grand! Would have covered loads of bills and expenses

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 01:41PM

P.K.M. wrote: »

Would I be a rat on somebody, for doing something that doesn't affect me and that's none of my business? Em...NO!! Why would I?

Thankfully I'm in a position where I have two jobs, one Monday to Friday in a factory and the other, Friday night and Saturday night as a bouncer. I'm just keeping my head above water. But that wasn't the case a couple of years ago. What I was getting on the social didn't cover my bills, rent, general day-to-day living costs, so a had to do a few bits, nixers..part time jobs etc. to bump up my weekly coming in. I did what I had to to survive. My family comes first and I'll do what it takes to provide for them. Do I regret it? NO! Would I do it again if the same situation arose? YES!

Enter the nay-sayers, bitchers, begrudgers...

No; the honest folk who would manage and do manage on welfare without cheating. If you were capable of earning then that i how you should have been working and not claiming welfare. Calling honest caring citizens nasty names does not impress one iota!Shame on you!

Graces7 · 22-11-2014 01:44PM

ireland.man wrote: »

17000 people "suddenly haven't had enough", a jump from 600 people. It's a rise in fraud itself, not of people reporting. There's an increase in fraud because there's been an increase in hardship. The rates correlate exactly to the economic bust. So people are taking the decision, rightly or wrongly depending on your viewpoint, to do everything to make ends meet.

Criticise people for cheating the welfare system but let's not demonise them. Let's not talk about their lifestyles compared to India, let's not talk about them in feckless terms, let's not used tired cliches about the working class. And for god's sake let's not create a surveillance system whereby ordinary people inform on each other- it's not a clever way to rectify this problem and it'll be damaging to the social fabric in the long run.

Oh very high sounding! We are talking about cheats . OK?OK! Yes it is hard to male ends meet but it can be done and is being done by many, myself included.

UCDVet · 22-11-2014 01:58PM

rottie 11 wrote: »

People should mind their own business and worry about themselves.

If I lived in the middle of nowhere and had a big plot of land where I grew crops to feed my family....I would agree, 100%.

But if I work in a city and pay taxes, a very significant amount of what I earn is taken, by force, from our government. As soon as that happens, worrying about MYSELF includes worrying about the money the government takes from me. That impacts myself and my family.

If the government is taking money from me, and giving it to someone else who is lying....it *IS* my business. It became my business as soon as the money came out of my paycheck.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 22-11-2014 02:07PM

Graces7 wrote: »

I have never reported welfare fraud but I have reported someone to the revenue who was scamming old folk and not declaring it.

I have also reported hot food stallholders who were causing food poisoning. These calls were anonymous.

No real difference.

Would you have reported for scamming but declaring the income? Or not scamming but not declaring the income?
Would you report a stallholder, who sells arts and crafts, to the revenue for undeclared income? Or someone who gives grinds or music lessons?

Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

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