Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

RoboRat · 21-11-2014 12:35PM

It makes me laugh to see the media and small minded people constantly harping on about dole cheats when in Britain for example, £900 million is lost annually to welfare fraud whereas from £100 bn (!) up to £150 bn is lost to tax theft there every year. That's a tenth of their GDP! And you can of course assume Irish businessmen and rules around the rich here is equally permissive. The fact is, dole cheats make up a tiny fraction of what's wrong in our economy but the focus on them is way out of proportion.

I don't condone tax theft in any way shape or form but £900 million from zero contribution is -£900 million whereas £100bn from £2522bn is still +£2452bn in revenue. Many companies will be creative with their accounting, some legally, others illegally but they are contributing for the most part.

ireland.man · 21-11-2014 12:51PM

RoboRat wrote: »

I don't condone tax theft in any way shape or form but £900 million from zero contribution is -£900 million whereas £100bn from £2522bn is still +£2452bn in revenue. Many companies will be creative with their accounting, some legally, others illegally but they are contributing for the most part.

Do you believe people on welfare have never contributed to the economy? Where do you think all the £2522bn comes from? Workers producing the wealth and then when a minority get ill or the economy gets bad, the state provides welfare to keep them alive until they can go back to creating the wealth that your attributing to corporations.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-11-2014 12:55PM

ireland.man wrote: »

Do you believe people on welfare have never contributed to the economy? Where do you think all the £2522bn comes from? Workers producing the wealth and then when a minority get ill or the economy gets bad, the state provides welfare to keep them alive until they can go back to creating the wealth that your attributing to corporations.

This may surprise you

Some don't :eek:

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 12:58PM

I wouldn't have a clue whether someone's on the dole. I do know someone who's been cut off their dole because someone reported them for working- but they weren't working. It seems to have been a malicious report.

RoboRat · 21-11-2014 12:59PM

Do you believe people on welfare have never contributed to the economy?

No, most certainly not. Many have contributed lots and have fallen on hard times but there is also a percentage who haven't. This thread is about welfare fraud so I am specifically referring to the figure of £900 million that you quoted that is lost on welfare fraud.

Where do you think all the £2522bn comes from? Workers producing the wealth and then when a minority get ill or the economy gets bad, the state provides welfare to keep them alive until they can go back to creating the wealth that your attributing to corporations.

As above, you are referring to Welfare in general, your previous post referred to welfare fraud so therefore I am correct in saying -£900 million of nothing is -£900 million.

I understand perfectly what welfare is and what it is in most cases used for, I was merely pointing out that even though companies / individuals may defraud the tax system, they are still contributing massively to it so its not really like for like.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-11-2014 01:01PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

I wouldn't have a clue whether someone's on the dole. I do know someone who's been cut off their dole because someone reported them for working- but they weren't working. It seems to have been a malicious report.

You mean they stopped someones payments without evidence of them working and claiming? :rolleyes:

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 01:05PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You mean they stopped someones payments without evidence of them working and claiming? :rolleyes:

Yes. The person lives in England, by the way.

Iwasfrozen · 21-11-2014 01:25PM

duckcfc wrote: »

Think about the world we live in and think about the politician's running this country. Dole cheats are a drop in the ocean and its usually people just scrapping by. I don't do it, never have but wouldn't tout on someone who did. I just couldn't lower myself to do such a thing. You see, I'm not jealous or have any negative emotions to make me stoop so low.

You need to stop associating reporting dole cheats with negative emotions. I'm perfectly satisfied with my life but it wouldn't stop me reporting a person I suspected of cheating.

If we ever want to end corruption in this country we must start from the bottom up. The man sitting in the dole office must bear equal moral responsibility as the solicitor in Sandymount.

Gannicus · 21-11-2014 01:31PM

duckcfc wrote: »

Think about the world we live in and think about the politician's running this country. Dole cheats are a drop in the ocean and its usually people just scrapping by. I don't do it, never have but wouldn't tout on someone who did. I just couldn't lower myself to do such a thing. You see, I'm not jealous or have any negative emotions to make me stoop so low.

It's not stooping "so low" to report a crime. Its theft/fraud plain and simple. I mean its much more than a drop in the ocean when you do the maths. Social welfare expenditure in 2013 was €20,243,000,000 (20 billion)

Source http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026476.shtml

This was actually more than the level of income tax generated in 2013 which was approximately €15bn. So you thats just over €5bn more spent on welfare than was taken in by the income tax alone for 2013. That's a €5bn loss straight away.

Source: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026937.shtml

People are screaming about wanting tax cuts and not wanting property tax or water charges.... I am massively against the water charges but where is money supposed to come from in this country to pay for all of this when we're automatically €5bn in debt due to one aspect of our economy.

Yes burn the quangos, no we shouldn't have bailed out the banks, yes a lot of developers and bankers and politicians should be in a 12x12 for what they have done but the collective "Average Joe" on the street is costing us €5bn a year we can't and shouldn't be spending.

Like any other company we're borrowing more than we are making. This is partially responsible for why we had to get the bailout and if it keeps up we will become a bankrupt country.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-11-2014 01:32PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Yes. The person lives in England, by the way.

Sorry but I still don't believe you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_fraud_in_the_United_Kingdom

A benefit fraudster is extremely unlikely to be investigated unless some third party reports them to, and provides evidence to, the police or the Job Centre (i.e. they slip up and admit it, or if they act in a particularly suspicious manner during a routine encounter with Job Centre staff, perhaps taking work telephone calls while at a signing-on appointment). That is to say that the two key reasons for investigating someone are:

Because they are reported by someone who has evidence they are committing fraud.
Because they accidentally give away to the Job Centre evidence of their own fraud.

When investigating cases, Fraud Officers will collect facts and a decision will be made on whether or not to take further action. They may gather information about the claimant and their family members, then compare it with information already given on claim forms or in interviews.[8]

Officers can contact private and public organisations that hold information on a suspected benefit thief including banks, building societies, utility providers. If evidence is found that benefit fraud has been committed, any of the following may happen:

prosecution
pay a penalty as an alternative to prosecution
the benefit may be reduced or withdrawn
overpaid benefit will have to be paid back
confiscation of homes and possessions

lanos · 21-11-2014 01:52PM

Gannicus wrote: »

the collective "Average Joe" on the street is costing us €5bn a year we can't and shouldn't be spending.

:eek: where did you get this figure you lunatic !

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 01:53PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Sorry but I still don't believe you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_fraud_in_the_United_Kingdom

Don't apologise. I don't particularly care

Gannicus · 21-11-2014 02:04PM

lanos wrote: »

:eek: where did you get this figure you lunatic !

I put the source links up in that post.

Now I did also say it was total social welfare expenditure, so it would include, Childrens allowance, (which I think needs to be restuctured) Medical cards payments to doctors, hospitals, dentists, rent allowance, and state pension etc but that is the total social welfare bill for the year 2013.

twowheelsonly · 21-11-2014 02:16PM

I can't believe the number of people going on about snitches, grasses etc but I guess that this thread really gives us a look at the attitude of Irish society in general.
IMO we'd be financially better off if everyone was a snitch, from the bottom right up to the top. How much have Bankers, Politicians and big business gotten away with over the years precisely because they know that no-ones going to pull them up on their actions as such is the Irish psyche.

NotASheeple wrote: »

No. Going after the big fish would be more my concern.

My point exactly what's the difference between a big fish and a small fish? They're all committing basically the same offence.

Having said that......

We're all guilty of throwing someone 10/20/50 quid for doing some small job for us. In a perfect world that should be declared as income for the recipient, whether you're working or not it should be declared. As if!!!

The guy working full-time and claiming full time piss me off, as do those lone parent claims where the partner is blatantly living in the house as well. However, the guy who literally just does an hour here or there maybe once a fortnight or a month, usually for the aforementioned pittance, doesn't bother me at all as IMO he's not making a conscious effort to commit fraud.

Gannicus · 21-11-2014 02:48PM

I have read back over another post and I would like to note that I in no way condone people who out of malice or spitefulness go around reporting innocent and legitimate welfare recipients. That's wrong and it causes stress emotionally and possibly financially for those who are in proper need of the help.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-11-2014 02:53PM

Gannicus wrote: »

I have read back over another post and I would like to note that I in no way condone people who out of malice or spitefulness go around reporting innocent and legitimate welfare recipients. That's wrong and it causes stress emotionally and possibly financially for those who are in proper need of the help.

Who is on about reporting innocent welfare recipients? This thread is about reporting people who steal money by fraudulently claiming welfare money and working

Gannicus · 21-11-2014 03:02PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Who is on about reporting innocent welfare recipients? This thread is about reporting people who steal money by fraudulently claiming welfare money and working

Fullblown rose mentioned suspicion of someone doing it in a post he made earlier -->

FullblownRose wrote: »

.... I do know someone who's been cut off their dole because someone reported them for working- but they weren't working. It seems to have been a malicious report.

sashafierce · 21-11-2014 03:05PM

This post has been deleted.

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-11-2014 03:16PM

Gannicus wrote: »

Fullblown rose mentioned suspicion of someone doing it in a post he made earlier -->

But no proof that someone innocent (In the UK) had their dole cut off without any proof of them fraudulently claiming.

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 03:23PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But no proof that someone innocent (In the UK) had their dole cut off without any proof of them fraudulently claiming.

None that I'm interested in sharing or willing to share- it would be inapropriate to share the person's confidential details.

Suffice to say there is no question of their working.

I have also heard quite a bit about ATOS and their questionable assessments of diability benefits claimants.

Gannicus · 21-11-2014 03:52PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But no proof that someone innocent (In the UK) had their dole cut off without any proof of them fraudulently claiming.

Ahh I know yeh. thats why I said suspicion.

Areyouwell · 21-11-2014 04:24PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

No.

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 04:36PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Don't apologise. I don't particularly care

Classic answer from someone who has no valid response

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 04:44PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Classic answer from someone who has no valid response

Well..I don't care whether that individual believes in what I said.

Invalid is a singular word to use here..are you going to quote and reply to every other poster who mentioned an opinion?

Littlekittylou · 21-11-2014 05:36PM

Gannicus wrote: »

I have read back over another post and I would like to note that I in no way condone people who out of malice or spitefulness go around reporting innocent and legitimate welfare recipients. That's wrong and it causes stress emotionally and possibly financially for those who are in proper need of the help.

People who report it for malicious reasons or frivolously are in the wrong. There was a post from a previous poster whose mother worked in the social welfare office who said most reports were frivolous or malicious. I think that was the phrase used.

Firstly if you accuse them of working that person who is supposedly employing them will have to have their accounts checked for PAYE and that persons life is disturbed.

If you accuse people of taking cash in hand then that persons cash flow as well as the person paying will be investigated. They will be asked for receipts and asked the question 'Where is the VAT?'.

If you have delcared every penny you earn to the revenue it's easy to prove and if you are not working and on benefits and you know your dates for when you stopped working etc you will have the paper work to prove all of that.

But it's a stressful thing to put people through. And also it's bound to involve more than one person.

Personally I would never report benefit fraud. But then I could never commit benefit personally either. I would feel awful. It would make life too stressful and I would feel the guilts! But no I would just mind my own business. I keep my nose clean and to myself.

But I think it would be quite easy with some investigation to prove either innocence or guilt.

suicide_circus · 21-11-2014 06:16PM

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Proper order

strobe · 21-11-2014 06:18PM

Nah, we're all getting rained on with sh1t, if someone wants to open an umbrella I'm not going to snatch it out of their hand.

Means Of Escape · 21-11-2014 06:26PM

FullblownRose wrote: »

Well..I don't care whether that individual believes in what I said.

Invalid is a singular word to use here..are you going to quote and reply to every other poster who mentioned an opinion?

Depends on the veracity of the opinion and whether it has merit
Saying you don't care if you're not believed following someone pulling you up on the facts is a weak reply
I don't believe you either .

suicide_circus · 21-11-2014 06:27PM

strobe wrote: »

Nah, we're all getting rained on with sh1t, if someone wants to open an umbrella I'm not going to snatch it out of their hand.

Rained on with shiit? Get up the yard will ye.

We live in a first world western democracy with progressive income tax rates and an extremely generous welfare system, so much so that we borrow billions every year to pay for it. There are millions of people around the world who do get shat on every day but non of them live on this island. People who knowingly defraud social welfare might as well be waltzing into a shop and filling their pockets without paying. No difference.

FullblownRose · 21-11-2014 07:15PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Depends on the veracity of the opinion and whether it has merit
Saying you don't care if you're not believed following someone pulling you up on the facts is a weak reply
I don't believe you either .

And again, I don't mind if you do or you don't. Weak or not.

Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

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