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Dail Suspended - Debate and Voting

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Comments

  • #182
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    fergus1001 wrote: »
    How about sf start bringing up all the murders during the civil war done by fg/ff I'm pretty sure people disappeared back then too ? Or is that too far back

    If there was anyone in FF or FG who had involvement in those murders I would bring it up, but they are long dead.

    Not so when it comes to what SF has done or supported or covered up.


  • #183
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What I am saying is, there is always something. That a lot of these SF threads have nothing to do with political policies but run deeper than that. They are generally debates between pro and anti republicans essentially.

    SF are not republicans. The use of that word is a misnomer.


  • #184
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    If there was anyone in FF or FG who had involvement in those murders I would bring it up, but they are long dead.

    Not so when it comes to what SF has done or supported or covered up.

    So what would you have done when the state was establishing itself after Independence, demanded the resignation of the men and women who had fought to establish it?
    The hypocrisy knows no bounds on this.


  • #185
    fergus1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    How about the ff party for supplying arms to the IRA back in the day I'm sure some of haughy's cohort are still lingering somewhere,

    Anyways, my point is the people in sf turned to politics and helped bring peace to the north, enda has no problem with them in the north so what's his problem with them down here ?

    I'm not a shinner I am just curious by the way


  • #186
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I would be pretty much the opposite. I like SF social and economic policies but have no interest in a 32 county republic (assuming that's your take on the word republican).
    There's goes the typical SF always follow the party line label I guess.:D

    That is, technically, my take - however, I'm starting to move away on the basis that I'm not sure it's in the best interests of the country.


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  • #187
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So what would you have done when the state was establishing itself after Independence, demanded the resignation of the men and women who had fought to establish it?
    The hypocrisy knows no bounds on this.


    The 1920s were a very different place to the early 2000s when SF/IRA was investigating child sexual abuse in Belfast and in Louth.

    The 1920s were also a very different place to the 1960s and 1970s in Northern Ireland. The two are not interchangeable.


  • #188
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    The 1920s were a very different place to the early 2000s when SF/IRA was investigating child sexual abuse in Belfast and in Louth.

    The 1920s were also a very different place to the 1960s and 1970s in Northern Ireland. The two are not interchangeable.

    Let's do the moral wiggle again.


  • #189
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Can we please not turn this into another SF thread? SF's history has absolutely nothing to do with a debate over Dail procedure.


  • #190
    fergus1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Can we please not turn this into another SF thread? SF's history has absolutely nothing to do with a debate over Dail procedure.

    I'd actually like that I'm no shinner but I am sick of sf/fg/ff ****


  • #191
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Can we please not turn this into another SF thread? SF's history has absolutely nothing to do with a debate over Dail procedure.

    The Dail was suspended because of the actions of Sinn Fein.

    Some believe that Sinn Fein were acting undemocratically in opposing a vote by the democratically elected Dail, in other words, to some of us, Dail votes are important to our democracy.

    A history of undemocratic behaviour could be seen as directly relevant to undemocratic behaviour today.


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  • #192
    fergus1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    Godge wrote: »
    A history of undemocratic behaviour could be seen as directly relevant to undemocratic behaviour today.

    so you dont like

    the 1916 rising
    Michael Colins
    and Dev
    ff
    fg
    labour


  • #193
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    The Dail was suspended because of the actions of Sinn Fein.

    Some believe that Sinn Fein were acting undemocratically in opposing a vote by the democratically elected Dail, in other words, to some of us, Dail votes are important to our democracy.

    A history of undemocratic behaviour could be seen as directly relevant to undemocratic behaviour today.

    The Dail was suspended today as well.


  • #194
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    The Dail was suspended because of the actions of Sinn Fein.

    Some believe that Sinn Fein were acting undemocratically in opposing a vote by the democratically elected Dail, in other words, to some of us, Dail votes are important to our democracy.

    A history of undemocratic behaviour could be seen as directly relevant to undemocratic behaviour today.

    In all seriousness, turning this thread into yet another IRA debate and claiming this as legitimate would be like turning a thread about Obamacare into a debate about Vietnam and claiming that as legitimate. :rolleyes:


  • #195
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    In all seriousness, turning this thread into yet another IRA debate and claiming this as legitimate would be like turning a thread about Obamacare into a debate about Vietnam and claiming that as legitimate. :rolleyes:

    Nah, this thread isn't an anti IRA debate. It's about a political party acting the goat and using deceptive tactics to deflect away from something they were being scrutinised over. It's true that they all do it, but this thread is about how Mary Lou did it this time.


  • #196
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    In all seriousness, turning this thread into yet another IRA debate and claiming this as legitimate would be like turning a thread about Obamacare into a debate about Vietnam and claiming that as legitimate. :rolleyes:

    The roots of modern day Sinn Fein are in the unjustified terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland that tried to change the governance of that state by undemocratic means. The refusal to obey the Ceann Comhairle last week is a more recent manifestation of that undemocratic attitude.


  • #197
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    The roots of modern day Sinn Fein are in the unjustified terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland that tried to change the governance of that state by undemocratic means. The refusal to obey the Ceann Comhairle last week is a more recent manifestation of that undemocratic attitude.

    Funny that, I could have sworn the 'governance' of that 'state' had changed completely to a power sharing one. Which it wasn't before the IRA started it's campaign.


  • #198
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Funny that, I could have sworn the 'governance' of that 'state' had changed completely to a power sharing one. Which it wasn't before the IRA started it's campaign.

    I didn't say it hadn't changed. Not sure what your point is.


  • #199
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    The roots of modern day Sinn Fein are in the unjustified terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland that tried to change the governance of that state by undemocratic means.
    You're honestly going to admit you've never heard of the civil rights movement in the North and expect to be taken seriously?


  • #200
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're honestly going to admit you've never heard of the civil rights movement in the North and expect to be taken seriously?

    What has the civil rights movement got to do with an unjustified terrorist campaign?


  • #201
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    What has the civil rights movement got to do with an unjustified terrorist campaign?
    What you said was
    Godge wrote: »
    The roots of modern day Sinn Fein are in the unjustified terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland
    Which is simply untrue and shows you know next to nothing about Sinn Fein or the North's history.


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  • #202
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What you said was

    Which is simply untrue and shows you know next to nothing about Sinn Fein or the North's history.

    The terrorist campaign was unjustified, I stand by that. It was never accepted at any time by the majority of Irish people that it was justified.

    Revisionist to suggest otherwise.


  • #203
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    The terrorist campaign was unjustified, I stand by that. It was never accepted at any time by the majority of Irish people that it was justified.

    Revisionist to suggest otherwise.
    Irrelevant to your original assertion that "modern" Sinn Fein has its roots in a terrorist war though.


  • #204
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,664 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Godge wrote: »
    The terrorist campaign was unjustified, I stand by that. It was never accepted at any time by the majority of Irish people that it was justified.

    Revisionist to suggest otherwise.

    Unjustified to some. Bottom line was that it worked. Could other ways have worked? Possibly.

    Fine for many people down the South to say it was unjustified. They didn't have to live with the oppression and fear that those up North had to live with. Those up North fought back by means of an armed resistance. They won their freedom. Damn well earned it!


  • #205
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    The terrorist campaign was unjustified, I stand by that. It was never accepted at any time by the majority of Irish people that it was justified.

    Revisionist to suggest otherwise.

    And now you are gonna show us all the other revolutionary groups in the world who held referenda before taking up arms? :rolleyes:


  • #206
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And now you are gonna show us all the other revolutionary groups in the world who held referenda before taking up arms? :rolleyes:

    Seriously? Does everything have to be proven to you? Or are you playing some kind of game?

    Your default position seems to be that Sinn Fein are correct in everything they say or do and have the majority of public support for everything they say or do unless someone can prove otherwise using criminal level of proof.

    Do you realise how silly that looks? As for the question you ask, the level of electoral support for SF North and South during the 1970s and 1980s demonstrates clearly the lack of support for the terrorist campaign. Their vote only went up when the violence stopped, further proof.


  • #207
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    The roots of modern day Sinn Fein are in the unjustified terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland that tried to change the governance of that state by undemocratic means. The refusal to obey the Ceann Comhairle last week is a more recent manifestation of that undemocratic attitude.

    And what would you call the Ceann Comhairle's persistently partisan behavior since taking office?


  • #208
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,664 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    And what would you call the Ceann Comhairle's persistently partisan behavior since taking office?

    Care to give us examples of this partisan behavior?


  • #209
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    walshb wrote: »
    Care to give us examples of this partisan behavior?

    His treatment of Mary Lou as compared with his treatment of members of government is a good example. He acted in a similar manner during the budget speeches, in which he admonished a member of the opposition (forget who, will check shortly) for behavior which had been endemic during the government speeches prior and had elicited no comment from him. He once kicked Richard Boyd Barrett out of the Dail for daring to question why different standards were being applied during question time, to the opposition and to government TDs.


  • #210
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    His treatment of Mary Lou as compared with his treatment of members of government is a good example. He acted in a similar manner during the budget speeches, in which he admonished a member of the opposition (forget who, will check shortly) for behavior which had been endemic during the government speeches prior and had elicited no comment from him. He once kicked Richard Boyd Barrett out of the Dail for daring to question why different standards were being applied during question time, to the opposition and to government TDs.


    And in a democracy the place for SF to raise that issue is in the Committee on Privileges and Procedures or through the use of Private Members Time.

    Refusing to leave the Dail chamber was undemocratic.


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  • #211
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    And in a democracy the place for SF to raise that issue is in the Committee on Privileges and Procedures or through the use of Private Members Time.

    Where the government also has a massive majority, presumably whipped, thus ensuring that no action whatsoever would be taken. :rolleyes:
    Refusing to leave the Dail chamber was undemocratic.

    It may have been, indeed, but it was a reaction to a highly undemocratic decision by the Ceann Comhairle, which there appears to be no reasonable way to deal with.


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