Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

Iwasfrozen · 19-11-2014 01:06PM

dark crystal wrote: »

I do and they're not going to magically decrease just because I lift the phone and report them.

Seems to me, these people would be pumping that money back into the economy in one way or another anyway. It comes in and goes straight back out to the government in one form or another again - I doubt any of these people are stashing their money in secret bank accounts in the Cayman Islands!

So by refusing to report them you're essentially encouraging law breaking and making those who obey the rules comparatively worse off.

In Ireland we're quick to complain about high level politicians and business people defrauding the government but is it any wonder corruption is endemic when they've grown up in a culture where cheating the authorities and featuring your own nest at the expense of others is acceptable.

If you agree with me and want to create a culture where corruption is not accepted then great but that has to apply to everyone in the country, the dude in the dole office and the solicitor in Sandymount equally.

OldNotWIse · 19-11-2014 01:08PM

Would entirely depend on who it was. I've a list of about 5 people that I wouldn't snitch on.

omega man · 19-11-2014 01:22PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Would entirely depend on who it was. I've a list of about 5 people that I wouldn't snitch on.

Me too. It's a tough one. For example we have good friends who surprisingly told us recently they had a medical card (VHI also) for them and their kids despite the fact they recently bought a new car (40k region). What's pains me most about this is that we spend a small fortune on medical costs for one of our kids and have done so for years. I wouldn't report this particular case and would hope that the system will catch up with them eventually but It still sickens me if I'm honest. They're real good people but that shouldn't matter should it?

Iwasfrozen · 19-11-2014 01:23PM

omega man wrote: »

Me too. It's a tough one. For example we have good friends who surprisingly told us recently they had a medical card (VHI also) for them and their kids despite the fact they recently bought a new car (40k region). What's pains me most about this is that we spend a small fortune on medical costs for one of our kids and have done so for years. I wouldn't report this particular case and would hope that the system will catch up with them eventually but It still sickens me if I'm honest. They're real good people but that shouldn't matter should it?

Ring in anonymously. Your conscience will be clear and they'll never know.

Tordelback · 19-11-2014 01:41PM

omega man wrote: »

Me too. It's a tough one. For example we have good friends who surprisingly told us recently they had a medical card (VHI also) for them and their kids despite the fact they recently bought a new car (40k region).

That's either a fault in the system there or a failure to provide accurate info. Medical cards are (largely) based on income, assets and outgoings as stated in application - you have to attach a P60 and payslips, or trading accounts and Revenue income assessment, so it should be fairly foolproof. If there's been a change in circumstances (as the car and particularly the VHI* might suggest), they are required to notify the HSE. If they are (somehow) on the level, then there wouldn't be any problem with you raising the question with the HSE, they'd lose nothing. If they're not on the level, well sod them.

Of course, in a properly civilised country everyone would be entitled to free medical care and it wouldn't matter.

*How could anyone with income levels that qualify for a Medical Card afford VHI, and yet would they not have to submit their PPS number to get tax relief on their VHI, and thus have it appear on their P60 or equivalent? My guess would be that (shock!) someone's made a mistake somewhere in the HSE.

The other fella · 19-11-2014 01:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ring in anonymously. Your conscience will be clear and they'll never know.

Why though? Would he gain anything from doing so?

19-11-2014 01:50PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

It never really crossed my mind until this crossed my path:

Husband is unemployed, she works part-time on a low enough wage. Claiming family income support. House pimped out to within an inch of its life. Two BMW jeeps, brand new. Boasting about her first class trips to New York before Christmas. None of this is hearsay, I heard it all from the woman in question, as have loads of my colleagues.

Reported them and I know for a fact I wasn't the only one, I know social welfare are trying their hardest to catch them. I'll let ye guess the husband's line of work.

The way she carried on was a complete slap in the face to anyone listening to her, she's either dim or she doesn't care, either way I had no hesitation in reporting her and I hope social welfare get them.

The husband is working cash in had despite the family claiming family income supplement is that it? because if the family is getting family income supplement he would not be getting social welfare, so you would be reporting someone for getting family income supplement is that it.

Consistent cash in had work is very hard to come by unless he is a criminal everything has got a lot more regulated.

Fuhrer · 19-11-2014 01:51PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Consistent cash in had work is very hard to come by unless he is a criminal everything has got a lot more regulated.

No it isnt, ever had work done in your house and have the guy doing it saying you'll get a discount if you pay in cash?

Thats how you get paid consistently in cash.

dark crystal · 19-11-2014 01:56PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So by refusing to report them you're essentially encouraging law breaking and making those who obey the rules comparatively worse off.

I'm no worse off for not reporting them at all. No matter how many phone calls I make, it's not going to affect my income in any way. How many people preaching about obeying the law have illegally downloaded music or films? Is that not theft too? How many people report them? I'm sure you've never broken a law in your life, but most people will, in some form or another.

In Ireland we're quick to complain about high level politicians and business people defrauding the government but is it any wonder corruption is endemic when they've grown up in a culture where cheating the authorities and featuring your own nest at the expense of others is acceptable.

If you agree with me and want to create a culture where corruption is not accepted then great but that has to apply to everyone in the country, the dude in the dole office and the solicitor in Sandymount equally.

The dude in the dole office and the solicitor in Sandymount are two very different creatures with two very different incomes. I have no interest in grassing up somebody for doing a nixer here and there to keep their head above water. Like I said, this money will just be rerouted back to the government in some form or another anyway.

Principles are great and all, but they're not always as black and white as some make out. I'm also not so sure it's always principles that cause people to make those phone calls...

19-11-2014 01:57PM

Tordelback wrote: »

That's either a fault in the system there or a failure to provide accurate info. Medical cards are (largely) based on income, assets and outgoings as stated in application - you have to attach a P60 and payslips, or trading accounts and Revenue income assessment, so it should be fairly foolproof. If there's been a change in circumstances (as the car and particularly the VHI* might suggest), they are required to notify the HSE. If they are (somehow) on the level, then there wouldn't be any problem with you raising the question with the HSE, they'd lose nothing. If they're not on the level, well sod them.

Of course, in a properly civilised country everyone would be entitled to free medical care and it wouldn't matter.

*How could anyone with income levels that qualify for a Medical Card afford VHI, and yet would they not have to submit their PPS number to get tax relief on their VHI, and thus have it appear on their P60 or equivalent? My guess would be that (shock!) someone's made a mistake somewhere in the HSE.

It very difficult to get a medical card and they do very thorough checks, however if say you have 4 children you can have a high enough income and get a GP only card.

Iwasfrozen · 19-11-2014 01:58PM

The other fella wrote: »

Why though? Would he gain anything from doing so?

I refer you to my post above the one you quoted.

19-11-2014 02:02PM

Fuhrer wrote: »

No it isnt, ever had work done in your house and have the guy doing it saying you'll get a discount if you pay in cash?

Thats how you get paid consistently in cash.

Yes that's happened, but in that case the person is defrauding the tax/vat system not the social welfare and they are being stupid as well.. a properly set up self-employed tradesperson with a good accountant will always do better that someone relining on nixers and hoping the revenue wont catch up with them.

The other fella · 19-11-2014 02:06PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I refer you to my post above the one you quoted.

Get a clear conscience by getting somebodys medical card taken? I cant see how that would work

miezekatze · 19-11-2014 02:12PM

Tordelback wrote: »

That's either a fault in the system there or a failure to provide accurate info. Medical cards are (largely) based on income, assets and outgoings as stated in application - you have to attach a P60 and payslips, or trading accounts and Revenue income assessment, so it should be fairly foolproof. If there's been a change in circumstances (as the car and particularly the VHI* might suggest), they are required to notify the HSE. If they are (somehow) on the level, then there wouldn't be any problem with you raising the question with the HSE, they'd lose nothing. If they're not on the level, well sod them.

Of course, in a properly civilised country everyone would be entitled to free medical care and it wouldn't matter.

*How could anyone with income levels that qualify for a Medical Card afford VHI, and yet would they not have to submit their PPS number to get tax relief on their VHI, and thus have it appear on their P60 or equivalent? My guess would be that (shock!) someone's made a mistake somewhere in the HSE.

I think the biggest problem with the medical card is that it's valid for quite a long time and nobody seems to review people's needs while they have one. I know people who got a medical card when they were on job seekers, they are now working again but still have a medical card for another few years. I think they should be issued for a year max and then reviewed again.

NewYork1979 · 19-11-2014 02:19PM

No the husband in question isn't doing nixers, his weapon of choice wouldn't be a his plumbing gear.

Let's just call his wife Trish and Trish is a bit dim because she blows about her spending to anyone who is listening. It's only a matter of time before they are caught.

Nidgeweasel · 19-11-2014 02:22PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Would entirely depend on who it was. I've a list of about 5 people that I wouldn't snitch on.

So you are a hypocrite?

blinding · 19-11-2014 02:27PM

Working in the black economy is still good for the economy. Production and all that malarky. It does cut down on bureaucracy .

And I ain't turning myself in for naffing !

Fook me our trash (actually spelt that wrong by accident !) has a big facial opening !

snubbleste · 19-11-2014 02:31PM

miezekatze wrote: »

..I know people who got a medical card when they were on job seekers, they are now working again but still have a medical card for another few years. I think they should be issued for a year max and then reviewed again.

If you have a medical card for a long time, it's a benefit you can keep for a few years after returning to work.

candy-gal1 · 19-11-2014 02:32PM

mariaalice wrote: »

It very difficult to get a medical card and they do very thorough checks, however if say you have 4 children you can have a high enough income and get a GP only card.

Tbh, the GP visit card can be just as good, unless of course you have very expensive regular prescriptions etc, but to me the bulk of medical costs would be the 60e just to be seen my the doctor

At least if you have to pay for your prescriptions your getting something for your money

Iwasfrozen · 19-11-2014 02:40PM

The other fella wrote: »

Get a clear conscience by getting somebodys medical card taken? I cant see how that would work

There's only limited resources in the country and they're taking money intended for the less well off.

Tasden · 19-11-2014 02:43PM

miezekatze wrote: »

I think the biggest problem with the medical card is that it's valid for quite a long time and nobody seems to review people's needs while they have one. I know people who got a medical card when they were on job seekers, they are now working again but still have a medical card for another few years. I think they should be issued for a year max and then reviewed again.

The medical cards do get reviewed but you're right it is generally only every few years.

I actually think that its a good thing people can keep the medical cards for a while after they take up work.

A lot of people who are unemployed, and genuinely so, are also on secondary benefits like rent supplement, fuel allowance, and medical card. You always hear people saying its not worth their while taking up work because they don't just lose their 188 or whatever a week, everything is stopped if you take up full time work. And yeah rightly so.

But you're going from having everything secure and that safety net so to speak, to going back to work and earning a wage but having to manage that yourself, most of the time so much of your wage actually goes on your rent that the money you're left with is less than if you were on the dole. Its a tough transition after having a set amount for so long. I wouldn't necessarily begrudge someone who has gotten back to work and only retains their medical card for a while. Especially if they have kids.

Also medical cards do take into consideration some expenditures in the means test, and they also allow over the threshold for particular medical conditions. I think their assessment is probably actually the fairest tbh.

The other fella · 19-11-2014 03:09PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's only limited resources in the country and they're taking money intended for the less well off.

Definitely agree with this.That money is indeed intended for the less well off, good point.

The only point im trying to make is, nobody is going to get increased pay or taxes reduced even if 50% of the people claiming signed off tomorrow.

If we were lucky they might take a small fraction off the water costs and expect us to be grateful for that much.

Id prefer to see a family with young kids get a few free trips to the doctor a couple of times a year than the likes of Joan Burton having it added to her presumably already huge pension.

OldNotWIse · 19-11-2014 03:18PM

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

So you are a hypocrite?

Because I'd snitch on one person and not another? I'm not entirely sure that fits with the definition. Hypocrisy involves the feigning of virtues while acting differently. I am not feigning anything.

Nidgeweasel · 19-11-2014 03:26PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Because I'd snitch on one person and not another? I'm not entirely sure that fits with the definition. Hypocrisy involves the feigning of virtues while acting differently. I am not feigning anything.

Accepted.

Double standards then. Which is equally as snide.

runawaybishop · 19-11-2014 03:31PM

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Accepted.

Double standards then. Which is equally as snide.

And what derogatory term do you use for people defrauding the dole?

19-11-2014 03:37PM

I have thought about this and I know its double standards I would only report someone when it is out and our fraud, I would not report someone who gets a bit of cash say splitting logs or helping with the silage the odd day and I mean the odd day, one of the main reasons is society cant exist if we regulate every thing down to the last degree.

Also all welfare should be seen as a form of income support not an income.

Timberrrrrrrr · 19-11-2014 03:39PM

mariaalice wrote: »

I have thought about this and I know its double standards I would only report someone when it is out and our fraud, I would not report someone who gets a bit of cash say splitting logs or helping with the silage the odd day and I mean the odd day, one of the main reasons is society cant exist if we regulate every thing down to the last degree.

Also all welfare should be seen as a form of income support not an income.

You totally contradict yourself there. Someone getting cash for work and not declaring it is committing out and out fraud as you put it.

OldNotWIse · 19-11-2014 03:42PM

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Accepted.

Double standards then. Which is equally as snide.

Are you píssed cause I'd rat or píssed cause I wouldn't?

Also, snide = derogatory in a nasty, insinuating manner

Dear Santa

This year for Christmas I would really love a dictionary

I've been a very good boy

Nidgeweasel

Nidgeweasel · 19-11-2014 03:43PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

And what derogatory term do you use for people defrauding the dole?

Double standards and weaselling around (pardon the username) ringing confidential phone lines grassing about people abusing the dole for one group while not doing it for the others that you know to be doing the same act is snide/underhanded behaviour.

And derogatory term for people defrauding the dole- I'd generally tend to call them cheats.

19-11-2014 03:44PM

I had forgotten about this until recently.. when I was a small child we keep turkeys for Christmas now they all had to be killed and plucked at the same time so every year my father used a few of men who were on the dole and they got cash as this was the 60's I am sure the dole was probably penny's and this was the only chance the men has to get a bit of money for Christmas. I never saw any harm in that.

Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

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