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**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    shinzon wrote: »
    Must be great being you I bet your a blast to be around seriously

    Shin

    Say your great as well - when you make a point irl do you say you name every time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Oh dear, it's the personal insult brigade.

    Run out of coherent arguments have we?


    Barely There

    "Well let her F*ck off to another country then and see how she gets on.

    We could do without the nauseating self-pity of these whingers."






    Enough said.:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭Creative Juices


    Oh dear, it's the personal insult brigade.

    Run out of coherent arguments have we?

    It wasn't an insult, it was an observation. I just find that your comments remind me of a mushroom because you like to be kept perpetually in the dark except when the government come to throw manure on you. You can also be a little poisonous.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    It wasn't an insult, it was an observation. I just find that your comments remind me of a mushroom because you like to be kept perpetually in the dark except when the government come to throw manure on you. You can also be a little poisonous.

    Well now you've really gone and hurt my feelings.

    Hopefully I'll be able to make it through this very difficult time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I'm sure we can point to other EU countries that give tax breaks and affordable childcare. But that will be shouted down with we are not other EU countries. And in the same voice shout we need to pay for water like every other EU country. Guessing depends on what agenda you are trying to push. Odd that we only seem to be pushed into the whole oh the EU does that when it's extra charges.
    And of course said without a hint of irony, not realising that the issues of state-assistance for childcare and water charges are in fact linked.
    Countries who provide these wonderful services also tend to have the highest tax rates. I'd love for her to have access to affordable childcare so she could both work reasonable hours and send her children to creche for a small amount of time per day.
    But those taxes and charges she's complaining about will have to go up.
    shinzon wrote: »
    Perhaps its as simple that shes had enough of paying crippling taxes and doesn't want to pay anymore

    cant it be that simple without having any ulterior motive, aren't people not allowed to express any opinions anymore without someone thinking theres something wrong and accusing the person of wanting tax breaks etc etc.
    So she's venting. Grand. That's my point. I'd love to not pay taxes any more too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭Creative Juices


    Well now you've really gone and hurt my feelings.

    Hopefully I'll be able to make it through this very difficult time.

    I feel bad now.

    Here, this lovely song from a great Irish performer might cheer you up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuJrEBtmM1Q


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Thread has gone to shite.

    Pity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Well let her **** off to another country then and see how she gets on.

    We could do without the nauseating self-pity of these whingers.

    You Sir sicken me. Look at your condescending attitude and how you think of your fellow citizens, people who helped pull us out of the recession. Unbelievable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    It wasn't an insult, it was an observation. I just find that your comments remind me of a mushroom because you like to be kept perpetually in the dark except when the government come to throw manure on you. You can also be a little poisonous.
    Well now you've really gone and hurt my feelings.

    Hopefully I'll be able to make it through this very difficult time.

    MOD: Give it a rest, you two.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    mikom wrote: »
    Thread has gone to shite.

    Pity.


    OK, let's try and get it back on track.

    I typed this up earlier, when lots of people were having problems understanding what the reasons for the protests are.

    First, to make it clear, I'm not a member of any political party, and I don't have any leanings to being involved with one or any, I'm too old and too disillusioned with the political landscape to be any real use to a political organisation at this stage, but I still have what I think is a working brain, and I'm prepared to try to use it.

    Irish Water as a concept was desperately needed for a number of reasons.

    To coin a phrase from Strictly, "In no particular order", the main order being as I think of them.

    There are at present 38 local authorities, some covering large numbers of people, in relatively small geographic areas, some covering next to no people, but a large geographic area, and their structure is massively top heavy with expensive management, they are severely unionised, and overstaffed, and very expensive for the work they do, but changing that system is beyond the skills and will of any of the political parties, because changing that system would lead to changes having to be made to politics as well, and that's not acceptable to the Golden Circle.

    The Government is desperate to get some services (like water) "Off the books" in order to keep the Troika happy, and make the deficit at least look smaller, even if that's done at the expense of actually costing more long term, which it will with the way things have been set up at present

    Water (which in this context also includes waste water treatment) has been massively (criminally) underfunded and under resourced for at least 25 years, so there are issues like Clonmel, which is still discharging untreated raw sewage into the rivers, and into the sea, and there are other places, Cobh and Killybegs were also mentioned on the radio today that still have the same problems, and if we don't as a nation address them, we will be liable for massive fines under EU directives that have been in place for (in some cases) over 15 years..

    Water catchment areas, and storage areas, transcend LA boundaries, the most significant example being the Shannon, which covers more than one province, let along local authority areas. The management of the resource, before we even consider treatment and storage, has to be looked at in that wider context, not just on a local need, local use basis, to ensure that all potential users get a fair allocation and share of the resource. As time goes on, this will be more important, we don't as such have a water shortage in Ireland, but we can and do have significant problems with the extraction of water in the right places, distribution to where it's needed, and storage of both untreated and treated water to ensure continuity of supply.

    Waste water treatment also can affect a much wider area than just a local authority area, and historically, there's been very little real management over LA boundaries, and things like objections to a scheme from outside of a county boundary were often given lower recognition than objections from within the county, which is not helpful.

    There is a huge backlog of deferred maintenance of old water mains and old sewers that is getting larger every year, and the longer that is left, the more expensive the work will become, partly through deterioration, and partly through cost inflation.

    So, Irish Water as a concept should have happened many years ago, but the lack of political will, and the significant pressure of the unions to resist ANY change has combined to end up with a situation where the changes that are happening now are more as a result of the unsubtle pressure of the Troika than as a result of political willing for change to happen, and the Troika have pushed the issue on the underlying basis that every other OECD country has long established and well organised systems in place to manage the harvesting, treatment and delivery of potable water, and systems to then deal with the waste water as well, and in some cases, these systems and the organisations that manage them transcend national boundaries, as the water systems and rivers cross boundaries.

    The supply of potable water and the treatment of waste water is expensive. The bill in Ireland is above €1bn per annum at present, but that figure is badly distorted by the massive leak problem (in excess of 40% of treated water is lost), and due to the manner in which water was being managed, the LA system of management is costing more than can be reasonably justified, and IW should have been able to make significant savings by addressing the leaks issue, and only employing the number of people that are needed to manage the system.

    That's some of the background.

    Now, what's gone wrong with what should have been a simple plan.

    The first issue is that the wrong management at the highest levels have been appointed, we are aware of at least 3 former county managers, who left their previous employment under at best a cloud, having been responsible for massive cost over run issues, or overspending, or other issues that in the private sector would have disbarred them from employment in any other area or sector. That is not the case in Semi States, and we've seen the result.

    The unions managed to do under the table deals that meant over 4500 people being moved over from the LA's to IW, and IW had put on record that they were only going to need 1700, so 2500 people are being employed by IW but there's no real work for them to do.

    The management structure of IW has been liberally stuffed with former semi state employees, with very few private sector people being employed, which is highly suspicious.

    IW has put in place a number of things that are seen as inappropriate at this stage of the development of the company. A private gym that's realistically only available to a select few at head office, a controversial bonus scheme that "rewards" under achievers, excessively generous expenses and allowance schemes, and a very poor PR and customer service system have all combined to make a large number of people very unhappy with the ethos, culture and operational attitude of IW.

    IW are proposing to charge at least double the rates that was being charged by most LA's for non domestic water. No justification or explanation for this massive differential has been offered, and despite all manner of requests, IW have been less than forthcoming with any real information about what they are doing, their plans to deal with the infrastructure backlog, and similar issues.

    There is a very real fear that unless specific and definite obstructions are put in at a constitutional level, at some stage in the not too distant future, IW will be sold to the private sector, which is seen as being a very negative option, partly because IW will be a monopoly with no real potential for competition, and Water is being seen by many investors as the new petroleum in investment terms, and many people are reluctant to see a fundamental and essential service and product under the control of the private sector, and being managed by a for profit organisation.

    Having seen how the private sector abused and damaged the national telecom supplier, I think those suspicions are well founded, and Government has done nothing to allay those very real fears.

    So, that's the background.

    Now, to the future. Like it or not, water is going to change, the intention, which is reasonable, is that each user will pay for their water based on their usage. There will be some government support, but the level of that support is not clear yet, and has become even more complicated as a result of the recent significant protests.

    Water was being funded out of other taxation streams, and that is going to be changed. That has the benefit of releasing funds from those taxation sources to be used in other areas of the economy, and towards repaying the significant debts that are outstanding, some from the bank bail out, most from the overspending of previous administrations.

    In the short term, we won't see our overall taxation and spend on government and related services fall, because like it or not, we are obliged to reduce our deficit, and that means that money is still being taken out of the economy to pay those bills.

    There need to be systems in place to protect the vulnerable, and those who genuinely cannot pay the full charge for their water. The number eligible for that level of support needs to be closely controlled, and there will be many who are saying they won't pay who can afford to pay, and no latitude is appropriate there, if for no other reason than that even though we don't like it, the government policy is that water has to change, and this is their way of making that change.

    In broad terms, I don't want to pay for water, but I recognise that I will have to, because the service has to be paid for. Metering is the fairest way to do that, and to most economic way to do it is for the system to be run by one (state owned) company for the whole country. At present, I would have major issues with paying IW for that water, while I am prepared to pay for water, I am not prepared to pay exorbitant payroll costs for Golden Circle retirees, or for people who are employed for the wrong reasons, or for inappropriate bonuses.

    What is driving a lot of the protests, and will hopefully drive many more to protest, is the obscene and offensive manner in which Golden Circle members have been parachuted in to the top of IW to take massive payments out of the system, having in theory retired from another semi state position.

    For IW to work, and be acceptable to the people of Ireland, a number of things have to be fundamentally changed.

    The management has to be seen to be acceptable, and that does not mean semi state retirees who have failed in their previous roles.

    The numbers employed have to be appropriate.

    The manner in which the company operates has to be appropriate.

    The management have to be accountable for their actions, and the money and operation of the company has to be open to scrutiny by the people of the country, and if things are done that are inappropriate, there has to be a means of bringing the people responsible to account, and if appropriate, that includes firing them, not moving them sideways to another secure state position.

    The Energy regulator has to be seen to have real control of the prices being charged, and not be seen as just a figurehead to appease external viewers and rubber stamp price increases, our previous experiences with the Financial regulator serves to make people very nervous of the real power and authority of the watchdogs, we need them to be able to bark, loudly and with menace where needed.

    What's also becoming increasingly clear is that there are increasing numbers of people who are very unhappy with the way that our politicians operate. We've seen corruption, cronyism, fraud, and all manner of other issues that have combined to make people very unhappy about the way that politics are operating, and we've realised that we actually have very little real control over what they do, and how they do it, and throwing them out and putting another party in to power has now been seen for the ineffective control that it really is.

    Many of the semi state services management are being paid very high sums of money, and that is hard to justify, it's happened because too many of us, (and yes, I include myself in this list) have not been engaged with politics, and the result has been that those same politicians have exploited that lack of engagement to feather their own nests, and the nests of their close supporters, and they have continued to do it, even though times have fundamentally changed, and such largesse is no longer affordable or acceptable.

    I've already posted what I think should happen to local authorities, they need to be massively reformed, with many of them merged into provincial authorities, and some services like libraries merged into one national service, but that will be a very hard mountain to climb, because the opposition to that will be massive.

    Our choices are remarkably few.

    If we don't accept the changes that are needed, and that includes IW Mk 2, then there is a very real likelihood that there will be another economic melt down, and the IMF will be back again, and next time, they will be more inclined to take the line of forcing the changes that are needed, and that will mean (among other things) the end of every state employees contract, with no guarantee of re employment, and no guarantee that the new terms and conditions of employment will be anything like the previous terms.

    That will be even more traumatic that the last years have been. If it does happen, it will give us as a nation the real opportunity to take control of our futures in a much more positive manner, and bring about the real changes that are needed to make Ireland a great country to live and work in once more. It will also hopefully mean that the people will have more of their money in their pockets again, and the state services will no longer be the uncontrollable and unmanageable monster that it has become over the last 25 years.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    You Sir sicken me. Look at your condescending attitude and how you think of your fellow citizens, people who helped pull us out of the recession. Unbelievable.

    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,106 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.

    Nice language there.
    How do you know who did or did not contribute?
    Are you assuming that "most" of the anti-water protesters are unemployed because if so i'd say you are very wrong?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.

    Again having a swipe at anti-water charges people. What exactly did you do to help pull us out of recession? What gives you a feeling of such self importance? Do tell.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.


    Listen to yourself.......



    I made the BBC.
    .
    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.

    Statistical certainty alright.

    It's a foregone conclusion. ;)

    Will be no loss though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Again having a swipe at anti-water charges people. What exactly did you do to help pull us out of recession? What gives you a feeling of such self importance? Do tell.

    Maybe he's Enda?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭Satriale


    I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured
    People like me pulled this Country out of recession.

    Most of the bitch-monkeys on here couldn't pull their fingers out of their arses.

    Lol, more like pulled yourself off during the recession I reckon. You should go again you sound tense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭Tarzana2


    I would like Irish Water as a company to be restructured
    Still haven't got our pack in the post despite three phone calls. :(

    Can you register without getting this pack? I know you need a PIN. Can you get it over the phone?

    Anyone else not received their pack yet?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭shinzon


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Oh dear, it's the personal insult brigade.

    You do make me laugh you get on your high horse for what I said yet you tell a mother to **** off out of the country and call people bitch monkeys
    how can you have any type of coherent debate when your spouting ****e like that

    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭El Horseboxo


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    shinzon wrote: »
    You do make me laugh you get on your high horse for what I said yet you tell a mother to **** off out of the country and call people bitch monkeys
    how can you have any type of coherent debate when your spouting ****e like that

    :rolleyes:

    You've seen dudes name right?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    shinzon wrote: »
    You do make me laugh you get on your high horse for what I said yet you tell a mother to **** off out of the country and call people bitch monkeys
    how can you have any type of coherent debate when your spouting ****e like that

    :rolleyes:


    You forgot to say Shin at the end of your post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    I cannot view the original poll but from what i remember the choices were limited.

    That not with standing shouldnt the pro IW lot be addressing posts here not straw manning all over the shop about events outside of boards?

    TBH I believe many of the issues being raised are largely red herrings. They don't go to the heart of the reason as to why people are opposed to water charges.

    Almost none of the sins of IW are peculiar to them alone. Unduly generous renumeration? Excessive staffing? Questionable government appointments? All of this can be seen else where in the public sector.

    If all of this really was a major plank in the protests that we see then we would see more evidence of it in the marches. And more importantly, we would see the criticisms extended to domains where they similarly apply (HSE, politicians pay etc.). But of course we don't.

    Even the petty whinging about the gym. When the Dáil had one installed a few years back there was little more than muted grumblings about it.

    No. Many people simply do not want to pay for water and most that oppose water charges would do so regardless of how well IW might have been setup. It is just easier to make criticisms against Irish water than it is to make a case against metered water.

    And the base reasons for this IMO include a conservatism instinct. We always paid for water from central taxation therefore we should continue to do so. Plus the inability of many to comprehend that you will not actually be paying for water twice. And of course for some, the old chestnut. "Sure it never stops lashing rain in Ireland!"

    I asked here what realistic outcome from the protests would likely lead us (Ireland) to a better place. Nobody has as of yet suggested one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭323


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Tarzana2 wrote: »
    Still haven't got our pack in the post despite three phone calls. :(

    Can you register without getting this pack? I know you need a PIN. Can you get it over the phone?

    Anyone else not received their pack yet?

    I also have not received anything.

    But I've no intention of following it up.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 336 ✭✭Creative Juices


    If all of this really was a major plank in the protests that we see then we would see more evidence of it in the marches. And more importantly, we would see the criticisms extended to domains where they similarly apply (HSE, politicians pay etc.). But of course we don't.

    Really??

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92959201&postcount=791

    The 4 reasons why I have completely changed my mind on water charges and Irish Water

    1. Because I naively believed the "New Politics". Then I learned more about Hubert Kearns, David O'Connor, Denis O'Brien
    2. Because of the way underutilised local authority staff have been dumped into Irish Water to make it another bureaucracy similar to that other shocking organisation, the HSE
    3. Because of the utter arrogance and duplicity of the government and IW managers in relation to charges, customer service and infrastructure renewal.
    4. Because of the unbelievable bias by the Irish media primarily RTE and the Indo.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    I asked here what realistic outcome from the protests would likely lead us (Ireland) to a better place. Nobody has as of yet suggested one.

    I've made a number of suggestions throughout this thread that I think would lead Ireland to a better place, but I would be the first to admit that they are over a much wider spectrum than just Irish Water.

    I've become vocal about Irish Water because it is the latest manifestation of the corrupt, crony riddled quango culture that has bedevilled political thinking for the last quarter century.

    We saw how it did not work with the HSE, but the Golden Circle mentality has resulted in the same flawed approach now being taken with IW, and at this stage of the (patchy) recovery, there are many people who have serious reservations about the validity of using failed and discredited methods to bring about change, and they rightly fear that the cost of water will not reflect the true cost, and that there is a real risk of things like privatisation making the burden even heavier, and (rightly so) they don't trust the weasel words of politicians unless those commitments are embedded in the constitution to give some real protection to them..

    A properly structured and managed and functional Irish Water entity WOULD be better for Ireland, both in terms of the overall cost, and the quality of the end result.

    What we have at the moment is about as far from properly structured and managed as it could be.

    IF, and yes, I know it's a massive IF, that same concept of restructuring could be extended to the Local Authorities, the HSE and health services, and some of the other semi state quangos, the overall cost to the state ( and thus directly my pocket) of those services would also fall (significantly), with no loss of effectiveness. In the short term, it would mean that the deficit would be reduced more rapidly, and in the longer term it would mean either improvements in the quality of state services without massive price rises, or a real reduction in the overall take from the state in taxation of all sorts.

    That to me is a win win for Ireland. Efficient state services that are meeting the needs of the population at a lower cost than is currently the case, how can that be a bad thing?

    Making it happen is another story, as there is NO political will to make it happen, it would open politics up to much closer scrutiny and monitoring, and that would be anathema to the Golden Circle, they are only too happy that the majority of the country are not really engaged with the Political system and process, as it allows than to continue to get away with their excesses without challenge.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There



    No. Many people simply do not want to pay for water and most that oppose water charges would do so regardless of how well IW might have been setup. It is just easier to make criticisms against Irish water than it is to make a case against metered water.


    Course it is. The leaders of these protests represent the same group of people who've spent their lives with their hands out milking the State.

    The protests have also managed to suck in some normal PAYE workers who are sick of austerity/cronyism/inefficiencies in the public service or whatever - but the core protestors simply do not want to contribute to society.

    The irony is that all these protests will achieve, is the removal of the usual suspects from any requirement to contribute - all in the name of political expediency.
    The ordinary decent tax-paying citizen who marches is only ultimately succeeding in ensuring that more of a burden is placed on themselves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    "TBH I believe many of the issues being raised are largely red herrings. They don't go to the heart of the reason as to why people are opposed to water charges."

    So what are the real reasons?

    "Almost none of the sins of IW are peculiar to them alone. Unduly generous renumeration? Excessive staffing? Questionable government appointments? All of this can be seen else where in the public sector."

    You have just answered your musings in the first paragraph.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    gladrags wrote: »

    "Almost none of the sins of IW are peculiar to them alone. Unduly generous renumeration? Excessive staffing? Questionable government appointments? All of this can be seen else where in the public sector."

    You have just answered your musings in the first paragraph.

    So I presume you'll be organising an anti-HSE march?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Course it is. The leaders of these protests represent the same group of people who've spent their lives with their hands out milking the State.

    The protests have also managed to suck in some normal PAYE workers who are sick of austerity/cronyism/inefficiencies in the public service or whatever - but the core protestors simply do not want to contribute to society.

    The irony is that all these protests will achieve, is the removal of the usual suspects from any requirement to contribute - all in the name of political expediency.
    The ordinary decent tax-paying citizen who marches is only ultimately succeeding in ensuring that more of a burden is placed on themselves.


    What about the people marching who support charging for water but think it should remain 100% state owned and think the whole IW situation needs serious reconsideration?

    There is no extra burden to place on people. Fix the water infrastructure and water consumption goes down 42%. Revert the change to USC and that covers the cost of water.

    The changes made to income tax/USC were only made to sweeten the IW deal.

    Making threats like cutting child benefit is not how you get things done.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    Caliden wrote: »

    There is no extra burden to place on people. Fix the water infrastructure and water consumption goes down 42%. Revert the change to USC and that covers the cost of water.

    The changes made to income tax/USC were only made to sweeten the IW deal.

    Making threats like cutting child benefit is not how you get things done.

    No.

    Charge everyone for water and reduce income taxes.

    This would be a preferable situation for every working person in the Country.

    The only people against such a measure are those who don't work and have no intention of working.


This discussion has been closed.
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