BMW timing chain problem

MuppetCheck · 06-11-2014 8:20pm

Guy I know had it on an e60 at 80k miles, there was some contribution but still wound up paying a couple of k.

tom_tarbucket · 06-11-2014 8:50pm

Wheelnut · 06-11-2014 9:03pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Poll carried out on bmw-driver.net last year and there is a fair number of hitters:

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47070&page=4

That pole seems to indicate a 30% failure rate.

ValdelisBMW seems to be their resident expert and works at repairing them, but his English is a little unusual. At post 35 I think he is saying that they don't break without warning, they make noise first and can be fixed:

Valdelis wrote:

they dont broke straight without any signs of wear ,so its enough time to sort this even after it will start to make bad sound

Truckermal · 06-11-2014 9:11pm

Well in that case they are better than the PD 2.0 lump as they just went bang....:P

unkel · 06-11-2014 10:04pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

That pole seems to indicate a 30% failure rate.

Polls tend to attract people searching online for problems they've had. Many of the people with the problem would have seen the poll. Whereas I suspect the overwhelming majority of owners without problems, would have never seen that poll, never mind vote in it.

That said, I'd love to see figures too. As in how many of the N47 engined cars have failed to date, how many were produced. Nobody has these figures of course, but I'm sure we'd all settle for the figures from BMW: how many actually were registered at BMW dealers with the problem (this of course gives a percentage lower than the actual percentage of failed engines, as some people would go straight to an indy garage without ever telling BMW)

I'm gonna put my finger in the wind now and say it would be about 3-5% (worldwide)

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-11-2014 10:11pm

YbFocus wrote: »

No because the harm is done by the crank, replacing the chain will put it off but it will just start wearing the new one.

+1. If you just replace the timing chain, the problem is still there and the new one will also fail eventually. Even though it's known as the timing chain problem, it's not actually the timing chain that is the fault - it's the crankshaft and other bits and pieces connected to the chain that were not properly manufactured and cause the chain to stretch and eventually fail.

Mind you, even replacing the crankshaft and other bits and bobs is no guarantee that the problem will be fixed, since there are plenty of reports of cars built after March 2011 suffering from the problem, even though it was supposedly 'fixed' by then. I think the safest thing to say about that is cars built after March 2011 are less likely than older models to suffer from the problem.

TBi · 07-11-2014 12:40pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

At post 35 I think he is saying that they don't break without warning, they make noise first and can be fixed:

The chain will rattle on startup as it gets worse. You'll hear it if you know what to listen to. There are videos on youtube where you can hear the noise. My Co-Workers one was rattling like that but he thought it was normal.

A (now closed) BMW garage in Cork told the original owner of my Mini that the rattle from the engine was normal and they all do it. He was right that they all do it in time but it's definitely not normal.

Wheelnut · 09-11-2014 11:41am

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

9

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

TBi · 09-11-2014 2:36pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

Now try and find anybody with a chain problem on an older 3.5l v8 petrol from an e38 era car. If you can find one I'll be impressed.

Old diesel · 09-11-2014 2:43pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

I think the point is that these failures SHOULDN'T have being happening in the first place.

And a wider question for BMW is if pre 07 2.0 diesels worked fine timing chain wise - WHY change the design for something that introduces a problem that wasn't there - for no apparent necessary reason - I mean it doesn't sound like something they had to do for emissions rules - like adding a DPF.

The idea should be - if you change the design from something that works well - it should be BETTER your making it - not introducing problems that weren't there before.

NewApproach · 09-11-2014 3:32pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

:rolleyes:

mossym · 09-11-2014 4:23pm

NewApproach wrote: »

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

:rolleyes:

why bother with the count at all then. :rolleyes:

it's not a proper sample, but that will work both ways. those without an issure aren't rushing to the internet to tell everyone their car is fine. any internet discussion is always heavily weighted towards those with an issue.

the cynic in my says if the numbers had been higher it would have been accepted as a relevant sample.

i'd be thinking Unkel is probably in the right range. that's still way too many. I don't sweat mine too much, it's a 2011 automatic f10, so slightly lower risk, but still a risk. i got a decent deal, so even if it does go i'd still come in less than typical price, but apart from that i'd have been a lot less likely to buy.

4000 ish BWM's registered in Ireland this year as new cars, which i'm guessing doesn't include UK cars brought in. 2008 to 2011, probably less than thaton average(08 probaly much higher). but still you'd have to think there are 4 to 5k or so of these on the road from the affected model, if the stories of it going past the 2011 models are true it's probably higher.

5% would mean a couple of hundred affected. that's enough to draw the attention this issue is getting. it may be more, but i doubt it's the 30% thrown out as a number. just my opinion though

NewApproach · 09-11-2014 5:04pm

mossym wrote: »

why bother with the count at all then. :rolleyes:

it's not a proper sample, but that will work both ways. those without an issure aren't rushing to the internet to tell everyone their car is fine. any internet discussion is always heavily weighted towards those with an issue.

the cynic in my says if the numbers had been higher it would have been accepted as a relevant sample.

i'd be thinking Unkel is probably in the right range. that's still way too many. I don't sweat mine too much, it's a 2011 automatic f10, so slightly lower risk, but still a risk. i got a decent deal, so even if it does go i'd still come in less than typical price, but apart from that i'd have been a lot less likely to buy.

4000 ish BWM's registered in Ireland this year as new cars, which i'm guessing doesn't include UK cars brought in. 2008 to 2011, probably less than thaton average(08 probaly much higher). but still you'd have to think there are 4 to 5k or so of these on the road from the affected model, if the stories of it going past the 2011 models are true it's probably higher.

5% would mean a couple of hundred affected. that's enough to draw the attention this issue is getting. it may be more, but i doubt it's the 30% thrown out as a number. just my opinion though

No internet forum is ever going to provide a satisfactory sample for these types of issues.

FWIW I agree with you, I would be amazed if the numbers affected are anywhere near as big as 30%. Given the market prices these models as if it is nearly certain that they are going to be affected, you could argue they make good second hand purchases.

DublinWriter · 09-11-2014 5:09pm

I have 180K+ up on my 08 E60 and I'm getting the chain replaced this week as a precaution.

Wheelnut · 09-11-2014 8:33pm

Old diesel wrote: »

I think the point is that these failures SHOULDN'T have being happening in the first place...

I agree with you completely and I am not defending BMW. My point was that the thread was getting a bit hysterical with people saying they would never buy one and they will all go "bang". So at post 152 I asked how many people actually had first-hand experience of the problem just to see what level of knowledge lay behind the posts.

NewApproach wrote: »

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

No, not by any means. As explained above it was to find out how many of the posters had first-hand experience and how many were relying on hearsay. That is not to say that the latter group should not post, indeed some of the latter have made good contributions.

landmarkjohn · 09-11-2014 9:00pm

Wheelnut wrote: »

My point was that the thread was getting a bit hysterical with people saying they would never buy one and they will all go "bang".

I think there are enough examples of failures that I would not buy one, I don't think I would get much sympathy if after being aware of this issue I spent 10-20 K on a 520D and she went bang. A bit like buying a Renault of certain vintage and then being surprised at electrical gremlins.

10-11-2014 10:08pm

why have a 520 D when you could have a 535D

mickdw · 10-11-2014 10:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

why have a 520 D when you could have a 535D

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

10-11-2014 11:05pm

mickdw wrote: »

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

indeed, it's looking like that alright !

unkel · 10-11-2014 11:33pm

mickdw wrote: »

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

That will make a €20k car (privately) at least €5k more expensive (BMW dealer with warranty). That's a lot of money!

And honestly, "any bmw" is a bit of a dramatic statement, isn't it? There's one (yes only one) BMW engine that has given trouble in the last decade or so. And then probably only in about 1 in 20 cars.

That said, I wouldn't have much confidence privately buying a N47 engined car myself. I think I would just avoid that engine, or make sure I got it so cheap, that the work is already paid for...

10-11-2014 11:41pm

Or just opt for an A4, A6 , similar power, cheaper. Quattro is brilliant !

Leonard Hofstadter · 10-11-2014 11:45pm

unkel wrote: »

There's one (yes only one) BMW engine that has given trouble in the last decade or so. And then probably only in about 1 in 20 cars.

If it was only one engine that would be an improvement. The N57 also has the timing chain problem, it's just less prone to it being a six cylinder engine and thus being much smoother running than the four cylinder N47 tractor engine (and also because there were very few N57s made before the first attempt to fix the problem in early January 2009).

But the petrol engines aren't free of problems, either. What about the o-ring on the N62 engine? €7,000 to fix that problem. Or the infamous coil pack and injector problems that blight the N43 and N53 petrol engines? Or the wastegate rattle that affects the N54? Admittedly, as BMW engines go, the N54 is reliable enough, at least over in Europe where aside from the turbo problem it seems to be fine, and not affected by the HPFP that has plauged the engine over in the US since its introduction in late 2006. The N55 uses the same HPFP and also suffers from the problem.

The Prince engine is very unreliable if you get the turbo model (Mini Cooper S and more powerful models only). The NA versions seem to be quite impressively reliable, not just by BMW's pitifully low standards, but quite reliable full stop.

The only engines over the past few years that could in any way be construed as being some way reliable, and not too expensive to fix if they go wrong, are the N13, N20 and N54 engines. Which must represent at most 5% of BMWs/Minis sold in Ireland over the past 4-5 years? The vast, vast majority of new BMWs sold in Irish (and Britain for that matter) since 2008 have been fitted with the N47.

It will be interesting to see how the new B47, and all the other derivatives of that engine get on. The timing chain is still in the wrong place, which is not a good omen but obviously it's too early to say if they're going to suffer. I'm sure knowing BMW's recent form there will be some other very expensive problem to go wrong if they've rectified the timing chain problem, though:rolleyes:.

mickdw · 10-11-2014 11:58pm

unkel wrote: »

That will make a €20k car (privately) at least €5k more expensive (BMW dealer with warranty). That's a lot of money!

And honestly, "any bmw" is a bit of a dramatic statement, isn't it? There's one (yes only one) BMW engine that has given trouble in the last decade or so. And then probably only in about 1 in 20 cars.

That said, I wouldn't have much confidence privately buying a N47 engined car myself. I think I would just avoid that engine, or make sure I got it so cheap, that the work is already paid for...

5k more on the purchase price for 2 year main dealer warranty looks like a Bargain knowing some of the bills that bmws tend to generate.
I've seen receipts for 12k spent in one year on a 535d with less than 100k miles and bought new.

unkel · 11-11-2014 12:03am

mickdw wrote: »

I've seen receipts for 12k spent in one year on a 535d with less than 100k miles and bought new.

That's crazy. You remember what the 12k was for?

mickdw · 11-11-2014 12:55am

unkel wrote: »

That's crazy. You remember what the 12k was for?

I'm pretty sure it was for 2 turbos and an auto box along with other bits and servicing. I seem to remember it included goodwill too - as in the bill should have been more.

Voodoomelon · 11-11-2014 1:06am

Lets not forget the plastic chain guides disintegrating on the M62 V8s.

Granted, at a greater age and higher mileage.

mickdw · 11-11-2014 1:08am

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Lets not forget the plastic chain guides disintegrating on the M62 V8s. Granted, at a greater age and higher mileage.

What was the fault on your 750 that needed the strip down?

Voodoomelon · 11-11-2014 1:10am

No the M62 was the older V8 from the 90s. Mine was valve stem seals (N62).

mickdw · 11-11-2014 1:29am

Voodoomelon wrote: »

No the M62 was the older V8 from the 90s. Mine was valve stem seals (N62).

Ya i knew yours was a smoking issue.
I asked - what was the issue with your 750 not
- was that the issue.
How much would bmw charge if your repair was done at them?

unkel · 11-11-2014 1:40am

Mine was a '96 735 with the M62 V8. Sold it at 12 years old and near 150k miles on it. Never any big issues. Also had a M60 V8 (the notorious Nikasil engine) but the car was Irish and we use clean arab oil, not dirty oil like in the US and some parts of the UK. So that car never had a problem either

And I'd rather stick my genitals in a blender than hand a BMW main dealer 12k for a repair job :eek:

BMW timing chain problem

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