The amount of misogyny on boards these days is frightening.Mod instruction in OP

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-11-2014 12:15AM

efb wrote: »

Do the men here, campaign for men's rights re mental and physical health, sexual heath, parental rights etc. I do. And I campaign for Women's rights in these areas too.

I do a fair bit of it myself. I'm sure they'll be throwing us a parade shortly.

Fr_Dougal · 08-11-2014 12:16AM

efb wrote: »

why the reluctance to give your reference, go google it is a lazy answer. I referenced my quotes

I've given you the reason, take it or leave it. I'm on a mobile device.

IsMiseMyself · 08-11-2014 12:17AM

I think we've hit the 'Unfollow' time for this thread. Back to the Fantasy Football arena I go.

efb · 08-11-2014 12:17AM

TheZohan wrote: »

I've given you the reason, take it or leave it. I'm on a mobile device.

Must be android, I can easily copy the link from my iPhone :P

KomradeBishop · 08-11-2014 12:18AM

efb wrote: »

Do the men here, campaign for men's rights re mental and physical health, sexual heath, parental rights etc. I do. And I campaign for Women's rights in these areas too.

Gavin Shaggy Stoutness wrote: »

I do a fair bit of it myself. I'm sure they'll be throwing us a parade shortly.

Genuine question/curiosity: What ways do you both campaign for that?

Fr_Dougal · 08-11-2014 12:18AM

efb wrote: »

Must be android, I can easily copy the link from my iPhone :P

Well done, grab yourself a cookie.

Earl Turner · 08-11-2014 12:18AM

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

Gits_bone · 08-11-2014 12:18AM

TheZohan wrote: »

I've given you the reason, take it or leave it. I'm on a mobile device.

I think he's looking for a Harvard reference.

IrishCule · 08-11-2014 12:18AM

efb wrote: »

<edited out link>

I look forward to your study disproving this

If I said men are bigger risk takers than women would you call me a misogynist or would you agree with me?

Your own study has a more realistic figure:

About two-thirds of the observed gap was due to differences in observable characteristics between men and women, such as different levels of education and labour market experience, job and firm characteristics, etc. When account is taken of such factors, the remaining adjusted (or unexplained) wage gap was close to 8 per cent.

I think it is reasonable to suggest that a figure of 8% difference could be explained by men asking for raises and also asking for a higher salary when offered a job in the first place. Even if not the full 8% it should at least account for enough to drop the figure low enough that it could be considered negligible.

dark crystal · 08-11-2014 12:20AM

Gits_bone wrote: »

Exactly. You always hear women on about 9-5 jobs. A lot of men work 8-6 and longer.

Just out of interest which gender do you think is more responsible for childcare in general?
Paternity leave is a pathetically meagre scrap thrown at men by some of the more progressive companies, but which gender is usually given the task of raising their children and absenting themselves from their career during the first six months of their child's life?

efb · 08-11-2014 12:21AM

IrishCule wrote: »

If I said men are bigger risk takers than women would you call me a misogynist or would you agree with me?

Your own study has a more realistic figure:

I think it is reasonable to suggest that a figure of 8% difference could be explained by men asking for raises and also asking for a higher salary when offered a job in the first place. Even if not the full 8% it should at least account for enough to drop the figure low enough that it could be considered negligible.

8% is explained by women not asking, ok...

DoYouEvenLift · 08-11-2014 12:21AM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was talking about Julien Blanc, a scumbag who grabs women and shoves their faces into his crotch. I'm not surprised you'd stoop to whataboutery.

Ooh, you know me so well!

Mr. Incognito · 08-11-2014 12:22AM

Not trying to start a war here but i think the opportunities for anyone in Ireland to acheive any job is possible.

Anyone complaining about a glass ceiling etc is reaching for a tired cliche excuse.

Most law graduates are women. Most partners in my firm are female. I cant speak for any other profession.

This thread has bern started and no one has produced any data to back any claims up. Zohan is being asked to break down the links as opposed to any comment on the sustance.

Just whining about a general trend. We are talking about a term that denotes HATE of women. Zero evidence. Hurt feelings doesnt equal oppression. Someone offending you isnt systematic of society.

This thread is a joke.

efb · 08-11-2014 12:23AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Genuine question/curiosity: What ways do you both campaign for that?

Attending rallies, putting up posters, giving friends/colleagues advice

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 08-11-2014 12:24AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Genuine question/curiosity: What ways do you both campaign for that?

Mostly envelope stuffing/bucket shaking/manning the phones, most usually for the Rape Crisis Centre because I know people who work there and they always need extra pairs of hands. I'm fairly involved in a mental health project which is targeted predominately at teenage boys/young men, so I've done a bit of facilitating talks and stuff there, hope to do more in the near future. I'm starting soon as a volunteer for an adult literacy charity, which I believe mostly affects men. It's amazing what you get done on the dole!

efb · 08-11-2014 12:24AM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Not trying to start a war here but i think the opportunities for anyone in Ireland to acheive any job is possible.

Anyone complaining about a glass ceiling etc is reaching for a tired cliche excuse.

Most law graduates are women. Most partners in my firm are female. I cant speak for any other profession.

This thread has bern started and no one has produced any data to back any claims up. Zohan is being asked to break down the links as opposed to any comment on the sustance.

Just whining about a general trend. We are talking about a term that denotes HATE of women. Zero evidence. Hurt feelings doesnt equal oppression. Someone offending you isnt systematic of society.

This thread is a joke.

I gave links to back up the pay gap, but some people still climate change is a myth so I aint going to change everyone's mind, I accept that.

Turtwig · 08-11-2014 12:25AM

Throughout the course of reading threads on boards I've observed everything from posters who believe women shouldn't be on the internet and posters who believe that any criticism of feminism is misogynistic. Here's the problem: If we just ban these folks we'll never actually change their persuasion. Now, obviously, I am not for one moment suggesting we don't warn/card/ban misogynistic posters. The mods will continue to do their best to nuke muppets. From the point of view of a community though it would probably be a decent idea to have an awareness thread about misogyny. We already had one for depression and that worked wonders. Just anecdotal accounts whereby women recount their experiences so others can empathise with them. Then posters who post dickish stuff can also be referred to such threads to open their minds. The Ladies Lounge already has a thread entailing general sexism and I think a mega thread like that in after hours, which is basically the mass audience of this site, might do some good.

One more observation. Particular topics attract certain types of poster. You don't need to be a psychic to predict what type of troll is going to appear. It's vitally important that posters don't feed these trolls. Often times, in my experience, the problem is made far far worse by posters taking it upon themselves to reply to some asshat rather than just ignoring them.

Men, women, transgender and everything else, all have gender identities and issues. One thing that absolutely pisses me off no end is one group using whataboutery on the other to downplay an issue!:mad:

IsMiseMyself · 08-11-2014 12:26AM

Earl Turner wrote: »

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

Mr. Incognito, go back a page and tell me that post right there doesn't display some level of misogyny?

Definition of misogyny:
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Whatever about hatred. I don't believe there's any hatred against women on Boards, but there is that prejudice. It's right here in this thread.

This is getting ridiculous. Gonna unfollow for real now.

PopePalpatine · 08-11-2014 12:26AM

Earl Turner wrote: »

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

You've proved the OP's point perfectly. Who's this "we" that's doing the judging, the Iona Institute, Youth Defence and your fellow neckbeards?

Maybe the pay gap is a myth when you're comparing the same jobs, but this is a country where a woman has to go abroad for an abortion unless it threatens her life - that distrust of a woman to know what to do with her own body smacks of this "patriarchy" you sneer about. Shave your neckbeard FFS.

Mr. Incognito · 08-11-2014 12:28AM

Earl Turner wrote: »

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

Wow. You walked right into that one didnt you buddy. Thanks for validating the nonsense thread.

ptee1 · 08-11-2014 12:29AM

Earl Turner wrote: »

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

Good points. The slutshaming point is great. Men who have a preference for women with few partners are seen as having "a problem" by many women.

Theres always going to be extremists on either side though which is a shame.

Sand · 08-11-2014 12:30AM

beks101 wrote: »

I'm a woman, I have many opinions and a propensity towards expressing them.
I've been doing so around here for very many years.
And to be honest lads, the combination of having an opinion and having a vagina around here isn't exactly a walk in the fcuking park on most days.
Here are some things I've dealt with:

- The repeated assumption that I am a male poster if I don't make the distinction. Despite what most would agree is a fairly obvious female username. Hence the persistent bleating of "I am a woman"
- A dismissal of and attempts to invalidate my feelings, experiences and opinions on some gender-related issue because I haven't taken any concrete action. Such as 'going to the cops'.
- A dismissal or attempts to invalidate my feelings, experiences and opinions on some gender-related issue because "I have a female friend who disagrees with you".
- Posters raking through my post history to find something that contradicts some opinion I have on something gender related
- The assumption that I am speaking for my entire gender when I express any opinion on any innocuous subject anywhere.
- Whataboutery. The fact that it can swing both ways does not detract from the fact that it exists as a way to degrade a female opinion or experience in the first place.

I like AH because IMO it can be like a microcosm of Irish society or at least of pub banter across the country on various social issues, something I sorely miss as an expat. It can be good craic.
But there's no denying it can be a bloody coarse place for a woman with an opinion, especially one who habitually seeks to speak up on gender-related issues.
And just because your own gender excludes you from experiencing the reality of that, does NOT mean it isn't the case.

Welcome to the male experience where you are not a special or unique snowflake. If you are a poster with a propensity for expressing you opinion, you are going to bump into other posters with a propensity for expressing theirs and criticising yours. All of the stuff you reference that you paint in terms of being gender specific are fairly standard Internet ROE. Also the last bit, underlined - genuine laughter. Yup, being male has meant the internet is full of sunshine, rainbows and people who thank me for expressing my opinions and value my input. No need for sarcasm tags I hope.

I know the above comes across as harsh, and might be filed under your definition of criticism of being female and expressing an opinion. Its not. Its your opinion being criticised. I do genuinely believe its tougher for a female to engage in online gaming (for example) due to the immaturity of a significant minority of that community. I have noticed that successfully "integrated" female gamers tend to be gamer laddettes - I haven't quite made up my mind if thats down to females conforming to male dominated gamer culture, or my own biases.

I do recall reading a book called "This Love is not for cowards". It was an Americans account of his decision to live in Juarez, Mexico to support the local soccer team that against all odds had made it to the Mexican football top flight. During his time in Juarez, the nature of the book changed - it stopped being about simply supporting a team, and became about supporting Juarez and living in a city with a drug fuelled murder rate that rivalled a warzone. How people coped with that. For example, he recalls how tortured bodies of murder victims were found on his jogging path one morning, and he jogged there again the next day convincing himself that it wouldn't touch him. One of the angriest chapters in the book is where the author confronts an American writer who tries to portray the murders and chaos in Juarez as being a misogynist issue - that women in the city were the victims of a male driven violence. As if the problems of the city could be explained in gender terms. The author correctly pointed out that *all* the people of Juarez, male and female, were the victims of a cartel fuelled violence and that women were actually minority victims of murder and violence. He was very angry that the true tragedy was being appropriated and repackaged as a gender issue/first world problem for safe, white America.

Obviously, the scale is different but people being rude and aggressive to you on the internet is how the internet works, male or female.

BTW, the OPs post is ridiculous. There is misogyny online, plenty of it. But you need to be able to cite an example, not merely complain about something you wont actually point to. The OP is perfect catnip for a gender based mess, with the female assigned role of wanting to passive-aggressively complain about a problem in general without solving it, while males try to pin down specifics so the problem can be identified and solved and both frustrate the other for 30+ pages.

08-11-2014 12:30AM

As others have said, it's an undercurrent, an atmosphere of hostility and in certain threads any mention of a gendered issue results in some posters being pounced on and picked apart, often with the salient points disregarded in a petty point-scoring battle of semantics. It's easy to get sucked into that vortex, get defensive and let it get to you.

AH used to be much more fun, but now it feels like an unwelcoming place much of the time (to me). Some threads are actively upsetting in the amount of vitriol and really thinly veiled hatred they contain. It's often not just a question of one post - the obvious ones are obvious - it's a pattern of undermining, questioning, belittling and misdirection, and like other female posters, it's made me think that Boards is not a place I enjoy much anymore and I'm spending less time here in AH in particular.

There was a little lull in the hostility over the summer, but it launched into full-on mode the last few weeks and it actually doesn't just dishearten me, it makes me sad. We should be able to get along and chat about things without it turning into a festival of blame and spite, but that seems to be the way lately. Single mothers, street harassment, kids, sentencing, fathers rights, all these things should be talked about without the level of venom and poison that spills out. We all have problems and perspectives, and we should be all on each others sides, not taking sides.

It speaks volumes that when I saw the thread title, I was worried for what was going to be directed at SparkySpitfire, and thought about not posting because I'd have to brace myself for whatever comes after. I know people can feel accused in a general way and want to defend themselves against specifics, but while specifics are easy to deal with, a hostile atmosphere is harder to point out to people who don't feel it, and it's hurtful to have your experience brushed aside and told that its not an issue, when it really, really, is.

You're a brave girl Sparky.

efb · 08-11-2014 12:30AM

ptee1 wrote: »

Good points. The slutshaming point is great. Men who have a preference for women with few partners are seen as having "a problem" by many women.

Theres always going to be extremists on either side though which is a shame.

and he brought a friend

ptee1 · 08-11-2014 12:31AM

efb wrote: »

and he brought a friend

How is this anything other than flaming/trolling?

dark crystal · 08-11-2014 12:31AM

Some of the posters on this thread are illustrating the OP's point just perfectly.

Mr. Incognito · 08-11-2014 12:31AM

efb wrote: »

I gave links to back up the pay gap, but some people still climate change is a myth so I aint going to change everyone's mind, I accept that.

You links are skewed because they dont compare like with like.

They lump in all women and lump in all men and dont factor in a lot of women who are full time caregivers that have part time jobs and just divide to give an average.

A more scientic study of like for like educated sexes in the same jobs would show no gap imo.

A skewed study doesnt prove anything

IrishCule · 08-11-2014 12:33AM

efb wrote: »

8% is explained by women not asking, ok...

lol ok, you can think whatever you want.

Can I ask you this though, why is it that figures like 20% up to 30%+ are banded about regularly? Why does your study itself start by saying :

The average hourly pay gap between women and men remains at 18% within the European Union and, on an annual basis at 24%, according to the European Report released by the Belgian Presidency; in real terms the difference ranges between 6% and 34%.

And then later say, actually the real figure is this but nevermind.

About two-thirds of the observed gap was due to differences in observable characteristics between men and women, such as different levels of education and labour market experience, job and firm characteristics, etc. When account is taken of such factors, the remaining adjusted (or unexplained) wage gap was close to 8 per cent.

Which side is pushing an agenda?

BunkMoreland · 08-11-2014 12:34AM

Why do people try to control what other people should think. So what if someone hates women, what's it to you?

Lady Chatterton · 08-11-2014 12:35AM

County Hurler, you and Dermot would get along, you both being Brendan Shine fans.

The amount of misogyny on boards these days is frightening.*Mod instruction in OP*

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The amount of misogyny on boards these days is frightening.Mod instruction in OP