BMW timing chain problem

unkel · 30-10-2014 6:31pm

Ferris wrote: »

So the car had the issue, you fixed it and then serviced it every 7.5k or 8k miles?

No, I think he meant he had the car with the N47 engine. But he never had the chain issue himself (perhaps because of regular oil servicing)

keano25 · 30-10-2014 6:48pm

Ferris wrote: »

So the car had the issue, you fixed it and then serviced it every 7.5k or 8k miles?

Either way, fair play to you. I've just bought a 530d and i'll be doing the same as you as regards regular servicing.

No as soon as I bought the car I started that service interval and the car never had the chain replaced prior or during my ownership.

What year 530d? Would love one!

Ferris · 30-10-2014 7:09pm

keano25 wrote: »

No as soon as I bought the car I started that service interval and the car never had the chain replaced prior or during my ownership.

What year 530d? Would love one!

'08, its a touring too which is what I was after. Its a great car alright.

landmarkjohn · 30-10-2014 7:36pm

So off I go to check the reliability of my 2007 730i N52 engine and found this on honestjohn:

"15-4-2014: Worldwide recall of 489,000 BMW cars with six-cylinder 3.0 litre petrol engines of which less than 3,000 are in the UK. These are: N51 (1991-1995), N52 (from 2005) and the N55 6-cylinder petrol turbo (from 2009). The screws for the housing of the adjustment unit of the variable camshaft timing (Vanos) for the intake and exhaust camshafts could potentially become loose or break. An engine warning lamp ‘should ’ appear in such circumstances, but if drivers experience any loss of power they should contact their BMW dealer immediately"

What are the odds that local BMW dealer has no information on this recall? Or will I be pleasantly surprised?

Voodoomelon · 30-10-2014 7:38pm

To me, it doesn't make much sense that regular oil changes would prevent this from happening. I think you'll probably find that the vast majority of these engines, maybe 95%+ of them will be perfectly fine.

But those who have the timing chain failure are making a lot of noise online and in the media and rightly so. You'll also hear of mechanics saying they have "several of these failures a week" in the shop. Maybe so. But there's hundreds of thousands that aren't.

galwaytt · 30-10-2014 7:40pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

One wonders though. The Wright Brother's plane had an engine with a timing chain in 1903. You think that in over 110 years the technology would be pretty much perfected. How did BMW manage to fcuk up a century of development?

Listen, back in the 80's Honda couldn't bbuilda timing chain bike engine to save their life, culminating in the now infamous ' chocolate cam' VF750.
They got so scalded by it they threw resources at it and over engineered the cure: VFR750F which dumped chains and went to gears. It not only saved, but elevated Honda to the pinnacle of bike engine design and went on to enjoy the rewards of it. To this day a late 80's and onwards Honda is still brilliant. From the mother and father of adversity then, a marketing coup.

You'd think BMW would have come out of denial by now.

galwaytt · 30-10-2014 7:42pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

To me, it doesn't make much sense that regular oil changes would prevent this from happening. I think you'll probably find that the vast majority of these engines, maybe 95%+ of them will be perfectly fine.

But those who have the timing chain failure are making a lot of noise online and in the media and rightly so. You'll also hear of mechanics saying they have "several of these failures a week" in the shop. Maybe so. But there's hundreds of thousands that aren't.

True, but can you guarantee you won't be in the 5% ?? This is not chump change you're talking about.

Voodoomelon · 30-10-2014 7:48pm

Nope, and i'm not defending the design in any way, the chains seem to be made from cheese. But I very much doubt an oil service at 8k miles instead of 12-15k miles will save one of these engines from crapping itself.

galwaytt · 30-10-2014 7:51pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Nope, and i'm not defending the design in any way, the chains seem to be made from cheese. But I very much doubt an oil service at 8k miles instead of 12-15k miles will save one of these engines from crapping itself.

I don't think it's a chain material issue. Chain run, tensioner and sprocket design are all suspect imho. The chain just happens to be the weakest (sic) link. .. and is the part that gives up first. .

Voodoomelon · 30-10-2014 7:53pm

I read something similar, the chain ends up being stretched if I recall.

dr.fuzzenstein · 30-10-2014 9:17pm

George Dalton wrote: »

Nice theory but have you any evidence of a successful real world example?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

It's the law, but the original purchaser would have to make the claim, the guy who bought it second hand gets nought.
This even applies after the manufacturers warranty period, if something doesn't last as long as one should expect it to last.
So if people who bought a Beemer where to mount an action against BMW because the engine spits out all its cogs and cylinders before 100k km, they stand a good chance of getting a favourable verdict in the courts.
The manufacturer saying "oh sorry, warranty ran out 5 minutes ago, fcuk off" doesn't cut it when they sell shoddy, defective goods.

whiterebel · 30-10-2014 10:12pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

It's the law, but the original purchaser would have to make the claim, the guy who bought it second hand gets nought.
This even applies after the manufacturers warranty period, if something doesn't last as long as one should expect it to last.
So if people who bought a Beemer where to mount an action against BMW because the engine spits out all its cogs and cylinders before 100k km, they stand a good chance of getting a favourable verdict in the courts.
The manufacturer saying "oh sorry, warranty ran out 5 minutes ago, fcuk off" doesn't cut it when they sell shoddy, defective goods.

I'm surprised people didn't take a claim through the Small Claims Court for €2000 for the Turbo issues. It might not have covered the full cost, but AFAIK, once a case is found against the defendant it becomes the standard, if you can prove its the same issue. For €25, it was surely worth a punt.......

unkel · 30-10-2014 11:51pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's the law, but the original purchaser would have to make the claim, the guy who bought it second hand gets nought.

So it's not the law then for the second hand buyer

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So if people who bought a Beemer where to mount an action against BMW because the engine spits out all its cogs and cylinders before 100k km, they stand a good chance of getting a favourable verdict in the courts.

What action? The second hand buyer can only take legal action if he bought from a company. If he bought from a private person, there is no possibility of any legal action.

Unfortunately for us here, consumer power / pressure is a lot stronger in the USA. Over there BMW owners managed to get BMW to offer an extended 6 year / 100k miles engine warranty and free engine replacement (iirc) on the Nikasil engines back in the 90s

Leonard Hofstadter · 31-10-2014 12:23am

unkel wrote: »

Unfortunately for us here, consumer power / pressure is a lot stronger in the USA. Over there BMW owners managed to get BMW to offer an extended 6 year / 100k miles engine warranty and free engine replacement (iirc) on the Nikasil engines back in the 90s

Indeed. BMW have probably figured (rightly) that there are enough mugs out there that will still buy the cars even if some people change brands because of the problem. After all, we know what contempt BMW treats its owners with when they so openly and unashamedly say that the reason it makes sense to go wrong wheel drive with everything below the 3 series is because 80% of 1 series owners thought their car was front wheel drive.

BMW is a marketing and financial services company that happens to make cars these days. It's full of marketing gobbledygook with "TwinPower Turbo" (whatever that's supposed to mean), "Joy", "sDrive" blah blah blah. God be with the days when they made as much effort with the engineering and the 'ultimate driving machine' and silky smooth straight six petrol engines (that never went wrong) as they now do with the marketing BS.

The Nikasil problems only ever affected the V8s in the US, because they changed the cylinder liners for the US spec M52s (although all M52TU engines do not have the Nikasil problem even outside of the US).

Granted BMW made c0ck ups before the N47, but they used to fix the problems very quickly (the M52 Nikasil problem was resolved after about 2 years) and they never happened again; meanwhile the N47 has had 2 sets of 'improvements' to the timing chain and even the supposedly "safe" engines (which are those built after March 2011) still get the problem.

The new B47 engine also has the timing chain in the wrong place, but this problem is going to be even more widespread in time to come, what with the petrol and diesel engines (apart from V8s and above) all going to be from the same 'family' over the next few years. Now maybe after over seven years of making an engine that has a dodgy timing chain, they've finally sorted the problem out with the new 'B' coded engines, but I doubt it, and even if they have, knowing BMW's recent form, there will be some very expensive problem in a few years' time with the B47 (and B37, B38, B48, B57 and B58 engines) that they will claim does not exist:(.

Hopefully BMW will suffer a Tesco like fall from grace or else cop themselves on before that; leaving aside the travesty of front wheel drive after all the years of marketing rear wheel drive as being a fundamental part of their DNA (which only bothers enthusiasts - for the vast majority of people the world is still turning despite the break with tradition), no manufacturer, no matter who they are (and especially not a premium one who makes over €5 billion in profit annually) should be allowed to get away with making engines that are ticking timebombs for so many people for such a long period of time.

Toyota have made a massive mistake using the N47 for their diesel engines and once problems start appearing in diesel engined Toyotas over the next few years as the N47 gets rolled out, that will hurt Toyota's reputation in Ireland no doubt.

MetzgerMeister · 31-10-2014 9:41am

The Twin Power Turbo refers to engines like the N55 which has both VANOS and a turbocharger. It's got nothing to do with twin turbo since they went from 2 turbos in the N54 to a single turbo in the N55.

YbFocus · 31-10-2014 9:50am

Ferris wrote: »

So the car had the issue, you fixed it and then serviced it every 7.5k or 8k miles?

Either way, fair play to you. I've just bought a 530d and i'll be doing the same as you as regards regular servicing.

530d's are great machines

I've done 70k miles in 18 odd months with a service at 7k everytime and it's been faultless.

MM, maybe it's different on the newer ones but my M57 definitely has the chain on the front

MetzgerMeister · 31-10-2014 10:15am

That could just be a different design feature of the M57 3 litre. This thing mainly affects the 2 litre N47 diesel engine.

YbFocus · 31-10-2014 10:23am

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

That could just be a different design feature of the M57 3 litre. This thing mainly affects the 2 litre N47 diesel engine.

Sorry man i got you wrong, i thought you thought they were all rear chained

I thought you thought they thought. . .

whiterebel · 31-10-2014 10:38am

I thought VAG were supposed to be the ultimate billhooks for timing chains, as the whole front end etc has to come off? I recently paid €470 in an Audi dealer for my A6, why the massive difference with the UDM?

Ferris · 31-10-2014 11:56am

Back to the OP's current issue. If the BMW-Ireland route does not work then Bavarian Care is a specialist near Galway (Cloonfad?).

Contact no's are on the following link:

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22272&page=4

I don't know the guy but he has a good reputation on there.

dr.fuzzenstein · 31-10-2014 12:46pm

unkel wrote: »

So it's not the law then for the second hand buyer

What action? The second hand buyer can only take legal action if he bought from a company. If he bought from a private person, there is no possibility of any legal action.

Unfortunately for us here, consumer power / pressure is a lot stronger in the USA. Over there BMW owners managed to get BMW to offer an extended 6 year / 100k miles engine warranty and free engine replacement (iirc) on the Nikasil engines back in the 90s

Yes, its not the law for the second buyer, original owners could still make a claim, though. Maybe if they did, second buyers could have a better bargaining position.
Other than that the only thing left is to warn people not to buy BMW, due to shoddy engineering and unhelpful attitude from the manufacturer. It's sad to see, and it seems BMW have been dining out on their reputation for far too long.

Foxhole Norman · 31-10-2014 12:54pm

According to the mechanic that sold me my car the chains are not unlike something you'd find on a push bike, he's seen so many down here now that he can hear if the chain is going on a passing 520d, I took that with a grain of salt though :pac:

jetfiremuck · 31-10-2014 2:27pm

My take on it is that the problem starts with the timing chain tensioner not holding the tension on the chain. This then allows the chain to start to slap around increasing wear on the sprockets and chain itself. Over time the chain then lets go either jumping the sprokets or breaking. The tensioner pad is held against the chain by oil pressure and prevented from retracting by mechanical means in the tensioner housing. Extended oil changes are partly responsible with sludge and carbon particles causing reduced performance of the tensioner. If you hear noise id get the parts changed. If not you are looking at bent valves,broken cams even a destroyed head..big money then

TBi · 31-10-2014 2:50pm

Problem with n47 is a malformed cog on the crankshaft. Cog doesn't mate perfectly with the chain and causes damage over time.

Mini Cooper S supposedly had a tensioner problem as you say, but the problem with them was the chain just stretched. The tensioner 'fix' just used a longer tensioner which kept the engine from failing until it was out of warranty. BMW used a different/cheaper chain than Peugeot designed for. Peugeot used the same engine and I don't see many problems with them for the chain.

tom_tarbucket · 31-10-2014 3:06pm

landmarkjohn wrote: »

So off I go to check the reliability of my 2007 730i N52 engine and found this on honestjohn:

"15-4-2014: Worldwide recall of 489,000 BMW cars with six-cylinder 3.0 litre petrol engines of which less than 3,000 are in the UK. These are: N51 (1991-1995), N52 (from 2005) and the N55 6-cylinder petrol turbo (from 2009). The screws for the housing of the adjustment unit of the variable camshaft timing (Vanos) for the intake and exhaust camshafts could potentially become loose or break. An engine warning lamp ‘should ’ appear in such circumstances, but if drivers experience any loss of power they should contact their BMW dealer immediately"

What are the odds that local BMW dealer has no information on this recall? Or will I be pleasantly surprised?

jaysus, this has me worried now. im not suffering from the issues listed but is it worthwhile mailing my local bmw garage tio check this any ways, just to be on the safe side.

And this is coming from a lad that had the N47 timing chain issues that cost me a lot of money

bcmf · 31-10-2014 7:22pm

this thread has just sent the price of second hand Beemers thru the floor.
Was considering a 530 touring but between this and the swirl flaps.:eek:.....no thanks

Comhrá · 31-10-2014 7:35pm

bcmf wrote: »

....this thread has just sent the price of second hand Beemers thru the floor.
Was considering a 530 touring but between this and the swirl flaps.:eek:.....no thanks.....

Funny, I was thinking this earlier when reading this thread. I'm not in the market for an N47 Beemer or anything, but really, would this thread on Boards.ie be widely-read enough to affect the relevant used car prices? I'd be surprised if it did but then I'm not in the trade nor do I have any knowledge of these things, just wondering.

bcmf · 31-10-2014 7:40pm

tippman1 wrote: »

Funny, I was thinking this earlier when reading this thread. I'm not in the market for an N47 Beemer or anything, but really, would this thread on Boards.ie be widely-read enough to affect the relevant used car prices? I'd be surprised if it did but then I'm not in the trade nor do I have any knowledge of these things, just wondering.

really depends on how hard you search google for faults and whether it shows up.

galwaytt · 31-10-2014 7:47pm

Just got my first ever lift in an F10 520d, so I see the attraction now. Very very nice. It would be a nice place to put miles alright, and it looks well too.

There again he was giving me a lift to the garage to collect my Harley from being serviced. The spin home erased my memory of the 520 instantly.

:pac:

Seriously, how BMW could let the chain issue ruin what is an otherwise beautiful car defies comprehension. ...

Ferris · 31-10-2014 7:59pm

bcmf wrote: »

this thread has just sent the price of second hand Beemers thru the floor.
Was considering a 530 touring but between this and the swirl flaps.:eek:.....no thanks

530d's do not seem to be affected by this unless they're at huge mileages or badly serviced. Also they're predominantly auto's which seem to suffer less from timing chain issues. A friend ran one as a taxi for 300k mls and apart from consumables and servicing all he had to do is replace a collapsed drivers seat (big guy). He changed it for a merc s class and has regretted it since. The swirl flaps issue is easily remedied if it bothers you, I'm gonna leave them I think.

You should drive one before ruling one out.

keith_d99 · 31-10-2014 8:06pm

bcmf wrote: »

this thread has just sent the price of second hand Beemers thru the floor.
Was considering a 530 touring but between this and the swirl flaps.:eek:.....no thanks

And pushed up the value of the M47 equipped - may be the old tax (and cheap swirl flaps job) but at least the chain is good!

There are some 08s with M47 engines ... Rare to find though

bcmf · 31-10-2014 8:11pm

yeah the swirls are easy enough.
The one I had my eye on is sitting in a a garage for a good while. No Tax No NCT
If there is no service history on it then I walk away.

mossym · 31-10-2014 9:55pm

bcmf wrote: »

this thread has just sent the price of second hand Beemers thru the floor.
Was considering a 530 touring but between this and the swirl flaps.:eek:.....no thanks

why? this topic has been discussed on here, and every other car forum, many times before. it's not like this is a deeply held secret. the fact you were looking without knowing about it until now shows the effect of discussing it. it might put one or two off, but it's unlikely to have any noticable effect on the price.

the tv show last year was much more likely to have an effect, and looking at prices, doesn't seem to have had much

Voodoomelon · 31-10-2014 10:37pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Just got my first ever lift in an F10 520d, so I see the attraction now. Very very nice. It would be a nice place to put miles alright, and it looks well too.

There again he was giving me a lift to the garage to collect my Harley from being serviced. The spin home erased my memory of the 520 instantly. :pac:

Seriously, how BMW could let the chain issue ruin what is an otherwise beautiful car defies comprehension. ...

I agree, I was in a bogo 520d about 2 years ago and I have to say I was very impressed with the standard spec and interior. Engine sounded like ass, but everything else was fantastic and it's really all the car anyone should need.

galwaytt · 01-11-2014 12:14pm

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I agree, I was in a bogo 520d about 2 years ago and I have to say I was very impressed with the standard spec and interior. Engine sounded like ass, but everything else was fantastic and it's really all the car anyone should need.

Sound, what sound ? It was whisper quiet inside. Outside, well..........you still couldn't be sure it was diesel without a good proper listen.

Now, for comparison sound-wise, our 05 Saab 2.2 Tid diesel.....lol

YbFocus · 01-11-2014 1:32pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Sound, what sound ? It was whisper quiet inside. Outside, well..........you still couldn't be sure it was diesel without a good proper listen.

Now, for comparison sound-wise, our 05 Saab 2.2 Tid diesel.....lol

520d's are outrageous loud man

Like almost like that old mondeo/transit sound!

mickdw · 01-11-2014 1:32pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Sound, what sound ? It was whisper quiet inside. Outside, well..........you still couldn't be sure it was diesel without a good proper listen.

I don't find them that refined.
A 6 cylinder is a different class

bazz26 · 01-11-2014 4:19pm

I bought an F10 with this engine earlier this week, but thankfully I bought it with a 2 year warranty. There was no way I was buying one of these without a decent warranty. This would be my advice to anyone considering this engine, get the best warranty you can with it otherwise buy something else.

As for the refinement of the N47 engine, they are not that refined especially for a mid size executive. The F10 is a well insulated car so you don't hear the engine that much until you are outside it. My previous VAG CR TDI was definitively quieter from outside. N47 engine is very fuel efficient however, I'm still impressed with how good it is despite the size and weight of the F10.

BTW the N57 6 pot engine that was briefly in the F10 from 2010 to early 2012 is from the same family as the N47 engine and does suffer similar timing chain problems, however you don't hear much of it because the N57 didn't sell in the numbers as the N47.

I wish you luck OP, terrible position to be in I'd imagine but as I stated earlier there are cheaper options around getting it fixed if you end up paying for it yourself.

unkel · 01-11-2014 5:13pm

Sick of the FWD already, bazz?

Anyway well wear! Smart move to get the warranty. I take it yours is auto with a fsh? Post 1/4/2011 production?

Elessar · 01-11-2014 7:26pm

Sorry to hear your predicament OP.

I myself bought a beautiful used "Le Mans Blue" 3 Series MSport with a rake of options last year and it is an absolute joy to drive. I bought from a dealer with 1 year warranty which I have extended. I knew full well the issue with the chains but I knew I would have peace of mind with the warranty extensions. I've only covered about 10k kms in the year but thankfully no issues at all to report and I am more than happy with my car. I certainly wouldn't put anyone off buying one just because of this. All I would say is buy from a dealer, keep it serviced and extend the warranty as often as possible. They truly are great cars.

myshirt · 01-11-2014 8:12pm

Do regular oil changes protect you?

Some cars go up to 150k + with no issues, while others have failed as low as 40k!

bazz26 · 01-11-2014 8:27pm

unkel wrote: »

Sick of the FWD already, bazz?

Anyway well wear! Smart move to get the warranty. I take it yours is auto with a fsh? Post 1/4/2011 production?

Cheers. Yeah, Sept 2011 build date with fsh and the sport auto box.

Interesting in reading about it that the manuals seem to be higher risk that the autos. One theory is that autos of that vintage don't have stop/start technology so all the engine stop/starting in traffic is putting extra wear on the chain. I'm not buying into that though. Other manufacturers don't have the same issues.

Leonard Hofstadter · 01-11-2014 10:27pm

bazz26 wrote: »

I bought an F10 with this engine earlier this week, but thankfully I bought it with a 2 year warranty. There was no way I was buying one of these without a decent warranty. This would be my advice to anyone considering this engine, get the best warranty you can with it otherwise buy something else.

As for the refinement of the N47 engine, they are not that refined especially for a mid size executive. The F10 is a well insulated car so you don't hear the engine that much until you are outside it. My previous VAG CR TDI was definitively quieter from outside. N47 engine is very fuel efficient however, I'm still impressed with how good it is despite the size and weight of the F10.

BTW the N57 6 pot engine that was briefly in the F10 from 2010 to early 2012 is from the same family as the N47 engine and does suffer similar timing chain problems, however you don't hear much of it because the N57 didn't sell in the numbers as the N47.

I wish you luck OP, terrible position to be in I'd imagine but as I stated earlier there are cheaper options around getting it fixed if you end up paying for it yourself.

N57 being a six pot is a much smoother running engine than the four cylinder N47, which is the other reason it's less prone to the problem, though it is of course still affected. Also as you know, no six cylinder E60s have the problem as only the 520d got the engine with the timing chain problem after September 2007 - 525d upwards were still M57 until the F10 came along. So, even among the six cylinder cars, the timespan with the most problematic engines is much smaller, as apart from early F10s, the only cars with the N57 before 01/03/2011 were the F01 and the LCI E90 330d (and LCI 325ds from mid-2010).

PS well wear on getting an F10:)!

ION08 · 02-11-2014 1:03am

I'm looking at buying an e90 as my next car.

Is the 163bhp M47 also plagued with the same timing chain issues or is it advisable to go for this as opposed to a 177bhp version?

Thanks

Leonard Hofstadter · 02-11-2014 1:16am

No. M47 (and M57) have the timing chain on the front. M47s are reliable as long as you remember to service them bang on time, and follow the manufacturer's schedule for changing some sort of oil filter every third service, can't remember what exactly it is now that needs to be changed, but make sure whatever it is that needs changing is done exactly on time, otherwise you may be needing a new turbo down the line. Oh, and get rid of the swirl flaps (although on E90s, it shouldn't be a problem).

M57s are pretty much bullet proof once the flaps are removed.

bazz26 · 02-11-2014 1:18am

No the M47 doesn't suffer from timing chain problems. The M47 engine has it's own problems but they are a lot easier and cheaper to manage. Main things to do on the M47 engine is change the turbo breather filter to the new vortex shaped one and replace it every 3rd oil service. Other thing to do is replace the swirl flaps in the manifold with blanks.

PGE1970 · 03-11-2014 12:12pm

Hi,

I drive an 08 318D. I was thinking of changing it next year and moving up to a 2010 or 2011 5 series. I don't think that I'll have the budget for a current model 3 series.

I'm bloody worried now after reading this thread!! And I'm now dreading a timing chain issue potentially presenting itself on my on my current car (that is a pleasure to drive and very well maintained).

Thinking now of an Audi A4. Any opinions or are they also plagued with engine issues?

I love the BMW and am loathe to switch but I don't want to have a feeling of dread every time I switch on the engine!

YbFocus · 03-11-2014 12:15pm

PGE1970 wrote: »

Hi,

I drive an 08 318D. I was thinking of changing it next year and moving up to a 2010 or 2011 5 series. I don't think that I'll have the budget for a current model 3 series.

I'm bloody worried now after reading this thread!! And I'm now dreading a timing chain issue potentially presenting itself on my on my current car (that is a pleasure to drive and very well maintained).

Thinking now of an Audi A4. Any opinions or are they also plagued with engine issues?

I love the BMW and am loathe to switch but I don't want to have a feeling of dread every time I switch on the engine!

But one with the problem already sorted, new crank and chain etc. Off you go

An A4 doesn't nearly cut it against a 5 series

ION08 · 03-11-2014 12:21pm

YbFocus wrote: »

But one with the problem already sorted, new crank and chain etc. Off you go
An A4 doesn't nearly cut it against a 5 series

God, whatever happened to premium German car's that are Reliable!

... Best ok buying a K11 micra or older Corrolla at this rate!

dr.fuzzenstein · 03-11-2014 1:12pm

ION08 wrote: »

God, whatever happened to premium German car's that are Reliable!

... Best ok buying a K11 micra or older Corrolla at this rate!

Better off buy Ford. Best German car you can get for the money.

BMW timing chain problem

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