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Guy nearly has his life destroyed being the victim of a woman's false rape claim

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    #32
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭fits


    h2005 wrote: »
    I know of 2 men who have been falsely accused. Absolutely nothing has happened to the accusers. One of the men has left the country as he felt the stigma of the allegation was still following him.

    How are you sure the allegations are false?


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    #33
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    fits wrote: »
    How are you sure the allegations are false?

    The first case the girl admitted to it. It was in Oughterard in Galway. In the second case it went to court and was thrown out.


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    #34
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    h2005 wrote: »
    The first case the girl admitted to it. It was in Oughterard in Galway. In the second case it went to court and was thrown out.

    The second case, when you say thrown out what do you mean?


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    #35
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The second case, when you say thrown out what do you mean?

    It went to court and he was acquitted. It was a total fabrication which was all to do with something else.


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    #36
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    h2005 wrote: »
    It went to court and he was acquitted. It was a total fabrication which was all to do with something else.

    So did it come out during the court process that it was a lie or was he just found not guilty?


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    #37
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    eviltwin wrote: »
    So did it come out during the court process that it was a lie or was he just found not guilty?
    He was found not guilty. Her story changed a number of times and there was no evidence to support it. He was totally consistent in what happened.


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    #38
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    h2005 wrote: »
    He was found not guilty. Her story changed a number of times and there was no evidence to support it. He was totally consistent in what happened.

    So she wasn't outed as a liar then, you can't do anything unless you can prove she lied. I'm in no way condoning her actions if she did lie, that's just disgusting to put an innocent man through that but we can't assume a not guilty verdict automatically means the woman lied either. Sometimes its a case of one person's word against another, it could be a genuine rape or not, the jury have a tough decision.


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    #39
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    eviltwin wrote: »
    So she wasn't outed as a liar then, you can't do anything unless you can prove she lied. I'm in no way condoning her actions if she did lie, that's just disgusting to put an innocent man through that but we can't assume a not guilty verdict automatically means the woman lied either. Sometimes its a case of one person's word against another, it could be a genuine rape or not, the jury have a tough decision.

    She said she was raped and then said she wasn't raped but was sexually assaulted/groped. That to me makes her a liar.


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    #40
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    h2005 wrote: »
    She said she was raped and then said she wasn't raped but was sexually assaulted/groped. That to me makes her a liar.

    As a matter of interest, do you know of other cases in similar detail where the girl/woman was rape but the case was also thrown out?

    Personally I know of several, but none where the man was clearly shown to be innocent. At best he/they weren't shown to be guilty. Which, since the benefit of any doubt has to go to the accused, doesn't make the accused innocent, just not guilty. I'm not saying false accusations don't happen, but it is a fact that the justice system is weighted the other way, in favour of the accused. It has to be. So guilty men being found not guilty is statistically far more likely than innocent men being found guilty.

    For instance, I know one case where the girl (13) was torn to shreds and her reliability and truthfulness were called into question because she wasn't able to identify the tree under which she had been raped by the two men. This was in a public park. Could you identify from a photograph a random tree? But she had certainly been raped. They got off, because she was considered to be an unreliable witness.

    That is far more my experience of these things than your examples.


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    #41
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    This is an interesting one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWJHVDUCuc4

    Nine minutes in, Jane Doe "We believe woman lie". Is she seriously saying that no proof should be need for a conviction? People lie about all kinds of things. :confused:


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    #42
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    volchitsa wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, do you know of other cases in similar detail where the girl/woman was rape but the case was also thrown out?

    Personally I know of several, but none where the man was clearly shown to be innocent. At best he/they weren't shown to be guilty. Which, since the benefit of any doubt has to go to the accused, doesn't make the accused innocent, just not guilty. I'm not saying false accusations don't happen, but it is a fact that the justice system is weighted the other way, in favour of the accused. It has to be. So guilty men being found not guilty is statistically far more likely than innocent men being found guilty.

    For instance, I know one case where the girl (13) was torn to shreds and her reliability and truthfulness were called into question because she wasn't able to identify the tree under which she had been raped by the two men. This was in a public park. Could you identify from a photograph a random tree? But she had certainly been raped. They got off, because she was considered to be an unreliable witness.

    That is far more my experience of these things than your examples.
    My reply was in response to a poster who said they'd never heard of men being falsely accused.


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    #43
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    h2005 wrote: »
    My reply was in response to a poster who said they'd never heard of men being falsely accused.
    I realize that. My question to you is how that compares to your overall experience of rape cases, particularly of rape cases where there was no guilty verdict.

    Is it your impression that in most of those cases there was no rape, or simply no conviction?


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    #44
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    volchitsa wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, do you know of other cases in similar detail where the girl/woman was rape but the case was also thrown out?

    Personally I know of several, but none where the man was clearly shown to be innocent. At best he/they weren't shown to be guilty. Which, since the benefit of any doubt has to go to the accused, doesn't make the accused innocent, just not guilty. I'm not saying false accusations don't happen, but it is a fact that the justice system is weighted the other way, in favour of the accused. It has to be. So guilty men being found not guilty is statistically far more likely than innocent men being found guilty.

    For instance, I know one case where the girl (13) was torn to shreds and her reliability and truthfulness were called into question because she wasn't able to identify the tree under which she had been raped by the two men. This was in a public park. Could you identify from a photograph a random tree? But she had certainly been raped. They got off, because she was considered to be an unreliable witness.

    That is far more my experience of these things than your examples.
    Or she was a good actor.


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    #45
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I realize that. My question to you is how that compares to your overall experience of rape cases, particularly of rape cases where there was no guilty verdict.

    Is it your impression that in most of those cases there was no rape, or simply no conviction?

    I don't have any experience of dealing with rape cases. I'd imagine it varies with every case. Do I think there are cases where people who are guilty get off? Most definitely.


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    #46
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    Or she was a good actor.

    Lovely thing to say about a child.

    I wouldn't be able to provide enough evidence to bring my attacker to court. I suppose I'm a liar too :rolleyes:


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    #47
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,170 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    A man in the village I grew up in was falsely accused by a girl...his name got dragged through the dirt. By the time it was found to be untrue, his wife had left him, he was wiped of his money and his business was f*cked.

    I use to listen to a radio show with a guy on it who was falsely accused, it was worse for him though. He did a few years in prison.


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    #48
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,170 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    volchitsa wrote: »

    For instance, I know one case where the girl (13) was torn to shreds and her reliability and truthfulness were called into question because she wasn't able to identify the tree under which she had been raped by the two men. This was in a public park. Could you identify from a photograph a random tree? But she had certainly been raped. They got off, because she was considered to be an unreliable witness.

    When was that? Surely there would have been DNA evidence and the fact she's 13 coupled with the DNA would have been enough..no?


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    #49
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Lovely thing to say about a child.

    I wouldn't be able to provide enough evidence to bring my attacker to court. I suppose I'm a liar too :rolleyes:
    You could be for all I know. For your sake, I hope you are.


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    #50
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    Or she was a good actor.

    At 13? In a court full of adults questioning her every word?
    I think that says all I need to know about you.


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    #51
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    When was that? Surely there would have been DNA evidence and the fact she's 13 coupled with the DNA would have been enough..no?

    Without wanting to get into TMI, I think they used condoms, IIRC (this was about 10 years ago now).
    In any case, she didn't go straight to the police, so there was no physical evidence. She only told her mother some time later, after she had started to spend all her time crying in her room and wouldn't go to school any more.


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    #52
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    I have a problem with this "they were found not guilty" meaning "they just weren't proven innocent" line of thinking.

    Either our entire court system (flawed as it is) presumes guilt over innocence until proven innocent no matter the crime, be it a theft of a packet of cigarettes, batter, rape, or murder. Or it presumes innocence until proven guilty. If we start to go down a line of thinking "oh, not guilty if it's regards a sex crime means guilty" then we as a society are in even deeper sh*t than we realise. If not guilty means guilty, and guilty means guilty, then all that is needed is the mere accusation regardless of merit, proof, or magical hallucinogenic sky fairies.

    Worse still, it also makes matters even harder for genuine victims to be taken seriously.

    Sex crimes are a deeply emotive issue that evoke strong feelings, but if we start down this path, then the seriousness of such acts becomes meaningless. The crime becomes an abstract, moot discussion point because no proof is ever needed and every bullsh*t artist in the world can just say "rape" for whatever banal reason and point at a guy and let the mob take care of the rest. Because, like, y'know, who needs courts anyway?!


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    #53
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Lemming wrote: »
    I have a problem with this "they were found not guilty" meaning "they just weren't proven innocent" line of thinking.

    Either our entire court system (flawed as it is) presumes guilt over innocence until proven innocent no matter the crime, be it a theft of a packet of cigarettes, batter, rape, or murder. Or it presumes innocence until proven guilty. If we start to go down a line of thinking "oh, not guilty if it's regards a sex crime means guilty" then we as a society are in even deeper sh*t than we realise.
    Complete nonsense. They manage perfectly well with a "not proven" verdict in Scotland. Their justice system actually compares pretty well with ours, in my view when you see the violent thugs that come back before the judge over and over again.

    (Off topic a little : And they don't go for any of this sh1t about putting money in the poor box instead of getting a sentence either.)


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    #54
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,377 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    It takes a real lowlife to make a false accusation against a person, an innocent man could get his head kicked in based on those lies.

    Would people then say "well there aren't that many cases really, only one or two" if someone lost their life due to a beating.

    I'm ofton on the road early and see girls thumbing me for a lift after being out the night before, no way would I carry them in case a false accusation was made against me.


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    #55
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Complete nonsense. They manage perfectly well with a "not proven" verdict in Scotland. Their justice system actually compares pretty well with ours, in my view when you see the violent thugs that come back before the judge over and over again.

    "Not proven" is a specific ruling if I recall, as opposed to "not guilty". Which still has baggage attached. At the fundamental base of the court system is that it is up to the court to prove guilt, not for the defendant to prove innocence.

    As for the revolving door system of Irish justice, that's more an issue of overcrowded jails, and to a lesser extent an out-of-touch judiciary.


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    #56
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,645 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I'm ofton on the road early and see girls thumbing me for a lift after being out the night before, no way would I carry them in case a false accusation was made against me.

    Sadly pragmatic of you. I've a very similar attitude towards children as well.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #57
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Lemming wrote: »
    "Not proven" is a specific ruling if I recall, as opposed to "not guilty".

    So? The fact is that not being found guilty doesn't mean you are innocent, and the fact that r system doesn't allow for that fact is a failing, in my view. You seem to think it is a good thing that no such nuances are possible, but there is a price to pay for that black and white reasoning. A loss of credibility for our court system is part of the price, in my view.


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    #58
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    volchitsa wrote: »
    So? The fact is that not being found guilty doesn't mean you are innocent, and the fact that r system doesn't allow for that fact is a failing, in my view. You seem to think it is a good thing that no such nuances are possible, but there is a price to pay for that black and white reasoning. A loss of credibility for our court system is part of the price, in my view.

    I think that you and I shall have to agree to disagree.


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    #59
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,252 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    volchitsa wrote: »
    So? The fact is that not being found guilty doesn't mean you are innocent, and the fact that r system doesn't allow for that fact is a failing, in my view. You seem to think it is a good thing that no such nuances are possible, but there is a price to pay for that black and white reasoning. A loss of credibility for our court system is part of the price, in my view.


    You don't believe in burden of proof?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof

    Are you judging someone on the crime they are accused of instead of any evidence?


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    #60
    Starokan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 746 ✭✭✭Starokan


    Faking sexual assault is an appalling thing to do , it affects both the person being accused in the most awful of ways and it makes little of the horrendous ordeal that those who have been genuinely sexually assaulted go through.

    Burden of proof always must be established but unfortunately there will be mistakes made that will favour incorrectly the accuser or the accused.

    It is however the system we have and we have to work with it. What I would like to see is a system that imposes far more severe penalties than currently exist in the case of both someone who assaults and someone who lies about it. The mental trauma for the injured party in both cases is gigantic.

    The only deterrent to crime is time, the majority of people who commit crime could not give a flying f..k about serving a few months, It merely increases the fear factor in their community when they come out, impose far lengthier durations and people will think twice before making false accusations


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    #61
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    volchitsa wrote: »
    At 13? In a court full of adults questioning her every word?
    I think that says all I need to know about you.
    At 10 you can lie to the gardai and social services, what can you do at 13? http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/rape-charges-dropped-after-complainant-admits-lying-601372.html


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