Is feminism a dirty word?

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 09:53PM

S.L.F wrote: »

Actually if you do some looking you'll see that Marxism and feminism are very closely related.

Whereas the MHRM is most definitely not Marxist based.

Making friends is not what I am here for.

The them vs us thing is in fact not quite what the MHRM is about.

We are pro-men's rights but not to the detriment of women's rights in spite of what several leading feminists have claimed.

We want equality

The problem is that feminists claim they want equality but really what they are looking for is all the 'gravy' without having to eat the 'greens'.

Basically equal outcome for less work.

I believe I said earlier there are 2 different kinds of feminist.

The misandrist loons who lead the ideology and who have power far beyond the vast majority of people.

Then there is the majority of feminists who have the illusion that feminism has something to do with equality for women.

The amount of hypocrisy here baffles me. You can't claim that MRA's are for equality and the feminism isn't. Once again, focusing on one gender cannot solve gender inequality. If you honestly think that you're clearly deluded.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 09:57PM

S.L.F wrote: »

You attacked a woman who's done heaps of good across the globe and has been viciously attacked by people you are defending.

I find it hard in the extreme to believe you do not identify with the feminist ideology and are in fact a feminist.

Well I'm not. I disagree with a lot of feminist ideology but support the women's rights aspect (you say this isn't feminism but that's only your opinion) hence my dislike of feminism in its entirety being attacked. Same as I wouldn't deem the hardliners in MRA representative of all of it.
I never once defended radical feminists - I criticised them actually. Please don't make things up.
I only criticised Pizzey's incorrect comment about all women (she is also a woman).

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 09:59PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

The amount of hypocrisy here baffles me. You can't claim that MRA's are for equality and the feminism isn't. Once again, focusing on one gender cannot solve gender inequality. If you honestly think that you're clearly deluded.

If you want to help women then be a feminist.

If you want to help the German people then be a Nazi.

You don't need to be a feminist to believe in equal rights for women.

If people don't like what I am saying then it is easy to shut me up.

Simply show me a feminist website, blog, social media page, event, organisation or a campaign that has anything good to say about boys, men fathers or masculinity without wanting to change them.

Shouldn't be too hard to do if feminism has the slightest thing to do with real equality.

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 10:03PM

S.L.F wrote: »

You don't need to be a feminist to believe in equal rights for women.

If people don't like what I am saying then it is easy to shut me up.

Simply show me a feminist website, blog, social media page, event, organisation or a campaign that has anything good to say about boys, men fathers or masculinity without wanting to change them.

Shouldn't be too hard to do if feminism has the slightest thing to do with real equality.

I've never said I'm a feminist or that feminism is for equality. I've stated multiple times that I don't believe you can achieve equality by focusing on the inequalities of one gender. You work on both at the same time to do it. Also, a. comparing feminism to nazism and b. Your logic in that statement is actually disgusting

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 10:31PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I've never said I'm a feminist or that feminism is for equality. I've stated multiple times that I don't believe you can achieve equality by focusing on the inequalities of one gender. You work on both at the same time to do it. Also, a. comparing feminism to nazism and b. Your logic in that statement is actually disgusting

Nazism blamed Zionism and by default all Jews for all the ills that the Germans faced.

Feminism blames patriarchy and by default all men for the ills that women face.

You might find it disgusting that I compare them but some would say real Nazis just wanted Germany to be united and strong except for the lunatic fringe/leaders who lead it.

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 10:44PM

S.L.F wrote: »

Nazism blamed Zionism and by default all Jews for all the ills that the Germans faced.

Feminism blames patriarchy and by default all men for the ills that women face.

You might find it disgusting that I compare them but some would say real Nazis just wanted Germany to be united and strong except for the lunatic fringe/leaders who lead it.

...Words literally fail me. I can't believe you actually think this. Nazism =/= feminism. Not on any scale, logic or even figurative. You wonder why people have problems with MRAs? It's due to comments like that.

Morag · 12-10-2014 10:48PM

S.L.F wrote: »

Nazism blamed Zionism and by default all Jews for all the ills that the Germans faced.

Feminism blames patriarchy and by default all men for the ills that women face.

Not ALL men!
:pac:

S.L.F wrote: »

You might find it disgusting that I compare them but some would say real Nazis just wanted Germany to be united and strong except for the lunatic fringe/leaders who lead it.

Yes cos not wanting to be treated as a lesser human being, is so like invading countries all around you and exterminating 5 million people.

Seriously you are hilarious, please tell me you do this as a stand up routine.

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 10:58PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Admiring Paul Elam - speaks for itself. MRAs saying all feminists deserve to answer for the lunatic fringe element yet not condemning the likes of Paul Elam - utter hypocrisy.

"Anti feminism" is a good smokescreen for good aul misogyny though - the mask always slips.

Talking about me getting personal?

I am not a misogynist.

I have nothing but time and respect for women.

I am fully in support for equal rights, consequences, privileges and responsibilities for women compared to men....which is why I am very anti-feminist.

P. Breathnach · 12-10-2014 10:59PM

S.L.F wrote: »

... Feminism blames patriarchy and by default all men for the ills that women face....

I'm not going to re-read the entire thread, but I think that my mention of patriarchy might have been the first one in this particular discussion.

Patriarchy is a social construct that was created by men and women; it's not simply a model of male dominance.

Further, I mentioned patriarchal thinking as being at the root of some of the ills that men face - particularly in relation to child custody, violence by women on men, and men being treated more severely than women by the legal system.

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 11:08PM

Morag wrote: »

Not ALL men!

I assume you've heard of the "Don't be that guy" campaign?

What about "Men can stop rape"

So yes all men are being targeted.

Morag wrote: »

Yes cos not wanting to be treated as a lesser human being, is so like invading countries all around you and exterminating 5 million people.

Seriously you are hilarious, please tell me you do this as a stand up routine.

Again for yourself, feminism has nothing to do with equality between the genders.

It has nothing to do with how women are treated other than to divide a wedge between the genders.

Women in Ireland enjoy equality far beyond what men and women had 100 years ago.

The Nazis exterminated 6,000,000 Jews plus many hundreds of thousands of others possibly even millions of others.

Both Nazism and feminism are ideologies.

They are a set of ideas, both rely on convincing people they are victims and that the enemy is someone else.

In the case of feminism it is all men or "Patriarchy".

Several leading feminists have called for the ratio of boys born to be reduced so there will be 5-10% of men in the future.

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 11:26PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not going to re-read the entire thread, but I think that my mention of patriarchy might have been the first one in this particular discussion.

Patriarchy is a social construct that was created by men and women; it's not simply a model of male dominance.

Further, I mentioned patriarchal thinking as being at the root of some of the ills that men face - particularly in relation to child custody, violence by women on men, and men being treated more severely than women by the legal system.

This video is 1 hour long and is from Karen Straughan who is an anti-feminist and an MRA as well.

She discusses patriarchy and all associated areas.

The_Captain · 13-10-2014 09:26AM

Some men seem to feel really really strongly about women not being allowed to have more rights than men

S.L.F · 13-10-2014 10:04AM

The_Captain wrote: »

Some men seem to feel really really strongly about women not being allowed to have more rights than men

Actually the word you mean is not "rights" but "privileges".

According to our Constitution all people regardless of their gender are equal and have equal rights under the law.

P. Breathnach · 13-10-2014 10:31AM

S.L.F wrote: »

...
According to our Constitution all people regardless of their gender are equal and have equal rights under the law.

Really? Have a look at this:

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Pure patriarchy: man as provider, woman as homemaker and mother. Note the neat slide between 2.1 and 2.2, which clearly presumes that the woman as homemaker becomes woman as mother.

newport2 · 13-10-2014 11:48AM

The_Captain wrote: »

Some men seem to feel really really strongly about women not being allowed to have more rights than men

Some women seem to feel really really strongly about men not being allowed to have more rights than women

IMO, they are right too. Neither should have more rights.

Carlos Orange · 13-10-2014 12:11PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really? Have a look at this:

Pure patriarchy: man as provider, woman as homemaker and mother. Note the neat slide between 2.1 and 2.2, which clearly presumes that the woman as homemaker becomes woman as mother.

Where are men mentioned?

P. Breathnach · 13-10-2014 12:19PM

psinno wrote: »

Where are men mentioned?

In the same place as the elephant in the room is usually mentioned.

jillymayr · 13-10-2014 02:13PM

feminism is not a bad word but some feminists take things so far

hatrickpatrick · 13-10-2014 08:16PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

The amount of hypocrisy here baffles me. You can't claim that MRA's are for equality and the feminism isn't. Once again, focusing on one gender cannot solve gender inequality. If you honestly think that you're clearly deluded.

Neither movement is about equality. The MRM is about filling the gap left by feminism which ignores any men's issues which would damage current female privilege (by and large). The ideal would be for both groups to merge into a truly egalitarian movement and tell anyone who doesn't believe in a gender blind society to f*ck off.

hatrickpatrick · 13-10-2014 08:18PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm not going to re-read the entire thread, but I think that my mention of patriarchy might have been the first one in this particular discussion.

Patriarchy is a social construct that was created by men and women; it's not simply a model of male dominance.

Further, I mentioned patriarchal thinking as being at the root of some of the ills that men face - particularly in relation to child custody, violence by women on men, and men being treated more severely than women by the legal system.

The word "patriarchy" falsely gives the impression that all men have more rights than all women, which is demonstrably bullsh!t.

hatrickpatrick · 13-10-2014 08:19PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Some men seem to feel really really strongly about women not being allowed to have more rights than men

And why shouldn't we? No one should be allowed to have more rights than anyone else. A human is a human.

SeanW · 13-10-2014 11:59PM

It seems to me that there are now, broadly speaking, two types of feminism, though I suspect there is some degree of overlap in some cases.

1) The kind of feminism that promotes justice, human rights and opposes discrimination, at least as they affect women. This was necessary in the Western world in the past and is still needed very badly in 3rd world cultures.

2) The kind that seeks to prepetuate injustice or create new injustice, favours discrimination as long as it's the "politically correct" kind of discrimination, and is so anti-male (half the population), and socially conservative to such an extent that that adovcates of it are demonstrably the enemies of a free people.

No prizes for guessing which kind of feminism is dominant in the Western world today.

You know the kind of feminism that demands that people be given more preferential or second-class access to employment depending on what reproductive organs they have, that invents and prepetuates myths about a "pay gap" that can only be substantiated by comparing irrelevant data sets, sexual and domestic violence being near exclusively a male-on-female issue. Political correctness, policing language ...
And also views on sexuality that are (except for their pathological man-hatred) virtually indistinguishable from the worst excesses of the Catholic Church or Wahhabbi Islam. Views that have been enshrined in law in Sweden and Norway, that are the official policy of many trade unions and universities, views that are so pervasive in todays society they nearly lead to large scale Internet and banking system censorship in Iceland, which would have put that nation into sync with Saudi Arabia, Iran, China and the like.

All of which is in 100% lock step with the views of the Feminist-left.

Anyone prepetuating or advocating injustice, genuine discrimination and/or repression of any kind should be universally condemned by any sane person without reservation.

Feminism is particularly vulnerable to this though because as I see it, things are different in 2014 than 1954. As such, I am somewhat drawn to the conclusion that feminists in the Western world don't really have that much to complain about any more, and that's the main reason that feminism these days is so heavily slanted towards injustice rather than any positive virtue.

The_Captain · 14-10-2014 09:25AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And why shouldn't we? No one should be allowed to have more rights than anyone else. A human is a human.

I agree with you. But the men screaming for equality and how feminism should be replaced with equalism aren't banging the drum as loudly for having men's advantages taken away

mrkiscool2 · 14-10-2014 09:47AM

The_Captain wrote: »

I agree with you. But the men screaming for equality and how feminism should be replaced with equalism aren't banging the drum as loudly for having men's advantages taken away

Ok, what advantages do males have over females?

Potatoeman · 14-10-2014 10:12AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The word "patriarchy" falsely gives the impression that all men have more rights than all women, which is demonstrably bullsh!t.

What I dont understand about patriarchy is that we are raised primarily by our mothers for the first ten years of our life. Not to mention most primary teachers and childcare workers are female. So how can patriarchy dominate while most parental and authority figures are female? Is patriarchy being ingrained in children by women?

SeanW · 14-10-2014 10:39AM

The_Captain wrote: »

I agree with you. But the men screaming for equality and how feminism should be replaced with equalism aren't banging the drum as loudly for having men's advantages taken away

What advantages? Be specific.
The criticism you level at men "screaming for equality" is by definition, applicable to FEMINism, since by definition any gender based advocacy is primarily/exclusively concerned with (at best) injustices towards one gender only. Or, as we've seen, very likely to be about promoting repression and injustice in the name of said gender.

This approach still makes sense in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India etc, just as it once did here. In the West it is much more questionable.

P. Breathnach · 14-10-2014 11:03AM

Potatoeman wrote: »

What I dont understand about patriarchy is that we are raised primarily by our mothers for the first ten years of our life...

That's actually patriarchal: that parenting is primarily the responsibility of women.

FactCheck · 14-10-2014 11:03AM

SeanW wrote: »

This approach still makes sense in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India etc, just as it once did here. In the West it is much more questionable.

Surely an Ireland that contains Miss Y, Miss C, the TFMR campaign, Savita Halappanavar, no compensation for the victims of symphysiotomy or the Magdalen Laundries, State cover-ups of our maternal death record, inadequate medical care including feotal abnormality scans for pregnant women, and Constitutional clauses that deny women the right to protect their health in pregnancy and state that married women's place is in the home, still has room for old-style 1970s second wave feminist improvement?

You are using "Western countries" as though they are all the same, but in regards to women's medical choices the Irish State still places massive restrictions on women's freedom. We are entirely out of step with the rest of the West. Indeed, Saudi Arabia, India, and Pakistan actually offer women MORE liberty than Ireland in several of the above respects.

If you are talking about economic issues, education (except sex and contraceptive education), participation in public life, women as the ceremonial head of state, yes Ireland is on a par with Western nations.

But while our laws concerning pregnant women remain comparable with only a handful of the most backward despotic regimes (Haiti and so forth), surely you can see that second wave feminism hasn't exactly finished with Ireland?

The most popular feminist movement in Ireland concerns reproductive rights and it's hard to argue with it that Ireland is in desperate need of a more liberal regime.

Potatoeman · 14-10-2014 11:50AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's actually patriarchal: that parenting is primarily the responsibility of women.

Women now have the choice to stay at home or go back to work but child minding seems to attract more women than men.

It cant be ignored that our mother is the most important figure for any child and has a huge influence on who we turn into.

Carlos Orange · 14-10-2014 11:56AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's actually patriarchal: that parenting is primarily the responsibility of women.

It is patriarchal that most authority figures in a childs life are female?

Is feminism a dirty word?

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