Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Billy86 · 13-10-2014 06:34PM

Seriously lads... Mata as a two way midfielder?

Sure we might as well try Rafael out as CB and Falcao at FB while we're at it.

irishfeen · 13-10-2014 06:35PM

"No doubt in my mind that LVG will sort things out [At United]" SAF

Mars Bar · 13-10-2014 06:39PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't think anyone who understands the point of the positions would argue that Mata isn't a far better number 10 than Rooney

The thing is Rooney's talent can see him score a ton of goals from any attacking position he plays so he's pretty much unplayable, you have to have him on the pitch somewhere, and his work rate is immense
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surely that would make him undroppable? Not unplayable!

irishfeen · 13-10-2014 06:42PM

"I got annoyed when we lost to Liverpool - didn't like that" SAF

Billy86 · 13-10-2014 06:44PM

BloodBath wrote: »

That's not how it works, sorry.

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't think anyone who understands the point of the positions would argue that Mata isn't a far better number 10 than Rooney

The thing is Rooney's talent can see him score a ton of goals from any attacking position he plays so he's pretty much unplayable, you have to have him on the pitch somewhere, and his work rate is immense

Generally agree (although unplayable is be a bit much

) On the last several months firm I would have Falcao furthest up at our nominal '9', Mata at 10, and Rooney between them at a kind of 9.5. Plays to his strengths of doing a lot of things well, without putting pressure for him to be tied in as a 9/10, which the other two have the attributes to excel at more than him, and who are also more tactically astute to those spots imo, having played the majority of the careers there. I really don't know why LVG isn't doing it, since it plays to all three of their strengths (and RVP's if he is on for Falcao).

BloodBath · 13-10-2014 06:44PM

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

Nobody get's a claim to that as long as Messi is playing in fairness.

Rayne Wooney · 13-10-2014 06:44PM

Mars Bar wrote: »

surely that would make him undroppable? Not unplayable!

I take it you don't watch any post-pre game Sky Sports

It's a Jamie Redknapp/Carragher-ism

Mars Bar · 13-10-2014 06:47PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I take it you don't watch any post-pre game Sky Sports

It's a Jamie Redknapp/Carragher-ism

No, I don't usually.

And people copy the misuse of the word?! Ugh

PhlegmyMoses · 13-10-2014 06:53PM

BloodBath wrote: »

Nobody get's a claim to that as long as Messi is playing in fairness.

I wouldn't call Messi a Number 10 in the classic sense of the term.

BloodBath · 13-10-2014 07:01PM

Billy86 wrote: »

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.

Is he a better goal scorer than Rooney? Sorry no he's not, he's not that good at all and if you're going to base stats on such a short period of play then good for you.

I base my opinions on the games I watch which is all of them, not on some nonsense stat you pulled off the net based on a very short period of time.

If you want to use stats then Mata is only creating an average of a little over 1 chance per 90 mins so far this season which for a supposedly great number 10 playing with 2 great strikers in front of him is piss poor.

That's supposed to be the strongest area of his game and it simply is not good enough. He needs to improve if he wants first team football.

The Moldy Gowl · 13-10-2014 07:03PM

Billy86 wrote: »

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.

Generally agree (although unplayable is be a bit much ) On the last several months firm I would have Falcao furthest up at our nominal '9', Mata at 10, and Rooney between them at a kind of 9.5. Plays to his strengths of doing a lot of things well, without putting pressure for him to be tied in as a 9/10, which the other two have the attributes to excel at more than him, and who are also more tactically astute to those spots imo, having played the majority of the careers there. I really don't know why LVG isn't doing it, since it plays to all three of their strengths (and RVP's if he is on for Falcao).

You said he will score 25 goals a season based off a stat. Then said he scored 32 in 2 seasons at Chelsea.

Then said he was wrong?

It's not how it works. Goals per minute is a stupid stat to base future performances off.

Now admit you used stats wrong and move on.

13-10-2014 07:03PM

Billy86 wrote: »

You want Mata to play as a two way midfielder in place of possibly our best player not named Di Maria over the last 3 or so games?

Herrera is injured so I want Mata there instead of a Fletcher or Anderson. Barca have no problem with Xavi or Rakitic or whoever in there and Mata takes up those positions anyway. Doesn't have Herrera's bite but given the attributes of all the players to replace him I think Mata matches them the closest.

The Moldy Gowl · 13-10-2014 07:10PM

Liam O wrote: »

Herrera is injured so I want Mata there instead of a Fletcher or Anderson. Barca have no problem with Xavi or Rakitic or whoever in there and Mata takes up those positions anyway. Doesn't have Herrera's bite but given the attributes of all the players to replace him I think Mata matches them the closest.

I would play Rooney there over mata. More rounded.

Would work against weaker teams or maybe in a few months when teams won't try to attack us.

beno619 · 13-10-2014 07:18PM

The only reason were having the argument is because LVG won't hurry up and drop RVP.

Based on performance this season we should be lining up with.

Rooney Falcao
Mata

I don't think Rooney is a great CM option either, last time he played there we got lots of hollywood diagonal balls but not much else.

Larry Wildman · 13-10-2014 07:19PM

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

When exactly was that time?

That's a wild statement.

In more disturbing news, the Indo are reporting a £25m move for David De Gea by Real Madrid. That's only a little over £7m more than we paid for him. Nonsense I hope although the fact that his girlfriend is Spanish and the Real Madrid factor are problems (notwithstanding his Atletico connection).

BloodBath · 13-10-2014 07:19PM

I wouldn't have Mata anywhere near central midfield. He has 0 defensive qualities. Rooney would be a far better choice.

beno619 wrote: »

The only reason were having the argument is because LVG won't hurry up and drop RVP.

Based on performance this season we should be lining up with.

Rooney Falcao
Mata

I don't think Rooney is a great CM option either, last time he played there we got lots of hollywood diagonal balls but not much else.

Rooney regularly plays in midfield areas. He spent the majority of last season around there trying to help our dire midfield make some progress up the field and was by far our best player last season as he has been multiple seasons.

beno619 · 13-10-2014 07:27PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

When exactly was that time?

That's a wild statement.

In more disturbing news, the Indo are reporting a £25m move for David De Gea by Real Madrid. That's only a little over £7m more than we paid for him. Nonsense I hope although the fact that his girlfriend is Spanish and the Real Madrid factor are problems (notwithstanding his Atletico connection).

The season he played a huge part making Chelsea European champions with 20 goals & 25+ assists.

beno619 · 13-10-2014 07:28PM

BloodBath wrote: »

I wouldn't have Mata anywhere near central midfield. He has 0 defensive qualities. Rooney would be a far better choice.

Rooney regularly plays in midfield areas. He spent the majority of last season around there trying to help our dire midfield make some progress up the field and was by far our best player last season as he has been multiple seasons.

Playing in midfield areas doesn't make you a good midfielder, ie Stephen Gerrard.

Larry Wildman · 13-10-2014 07:30PM

beno619 wrote: »

The season he played a huge part making Chelsea European champions with 20 goals & 25+ assists.

The world's best is a little OTT in my view.

The Moldy Gowl · 13-10-2014 07:39PM

beno619 wrote: »

Playing in midfield areas doesn't make you a good midfielder, ie Stephen Gerrard.

You're just being hyperbolic and just backtracking now

Billy86 · 13-10-2014 07:42PM

BloodBath wrote: »

Is he a better goal scorer than Rooney? Sorry no he's not, he's not that good at all and if you're going to base stats on such a short period of play then good for you.

I base my opinions on the games I watch which is all of them, not on some nonsense stat you pulled off the net based on a very short period of time.

If you want to use stats then Mata is only creating an average of a little over 1 chance per 90 mins so far this season which for a supposedly great number 10 playing with 2 great strikers in front of him is piss poor.

That's supposed to be the strongest area of his game and it simply is not good enough.

You said Mata is not good at anything but passing. Just admit it you were talking nonsense.

I do love that you brought up chances creates, by the way... Mata has created 1.44 chances per 90 minutes this season. Rooney has created 0.89... as in Mata has been far more productive on that front. The last time Mata had a full season at 10, he finished with 3.12 chances created per game, which is far and above what Rooney has had this year, last season, or the one before that. Even last year for us, he had 2.42 chances created per game, again higher than Rooney this year, last year, or the year before. Oh and when he was struggling/out of favour at Chelsea last season? 3.27 chances created per game.

But back to the original point, you said Mata wasn't good at anything but passing. The longer it takes you to just drop it or admit you were wrong, the more foolish you look.

BloodBath · 13-10-2014 07:46PM

I'm talking about this season playing for us though, not previous seasons for Chelsea. So far he has not recreated that 1 amazing Chelsea season where as Rooney has proven himself for many seasons.

Rooney was outstanding last season despite playing very deep for a lot of it surrounded by crap players who underperformed. He looked to be our best midfielder last season. That's how versatile he is and why he's better than Mata.

He managed to come up with 17 league goals and 12 assists despite playing so deep a lot of the time and despite Van Persie been given the penalty duties.

He's got all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Long/Short passing, good ball retention, good physicality and work rate, decent tacking/interception and he actually battles for aerial balls and wins them most of the time unlike Mata who never ever goes for a header.

yabadabado · 13-10-2014 08:18PM

BloodBath wrote: »

.

He's got all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Long/Short passing, good ball retention, good physicality and work rate, decent tacking/interception and he actually battles for aerial balls and wins them most of the time unlike Mata who never ever goes for a header.

I really don't think he has ,he would do a job there if needed but will never be a great midfielder.

Larry Wildman · 13-10-2014 08:22PM

I've always thought that the best players to deploy in midfield are midfielders.

Thankfully our days of getting fellas who can "do a job" to play out of position appear to be over.

Rooney should be played up front alongside Falcao with Mata behind them.

BloodBath · 13-10-2014 08:25PM

I'd love to see Rooney get back to the form he was in the last time he was played up front for a whole season. He has kind of been screwed by being moved around so much but it has grown other aspects of his game. He would have smashed Sir Bobby's record already if he had been.

His obvious best natural ability is up front though and I would like to see him tested at least up front with Falcao and Mata behind.

It doesn't make sense playing all 3 of our forward options at the same time.

Billy86 · 13-10-2014 08:30PM

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

You said he will score 25 goals a season based off a stat. Then said he scored 32 in 2 seasons at Chelsea.

Then said he was wrong?

It's not how it works. Goals per minute is a stupid stat to base future performances off.

Now admit you used stats wrong and move on.

He said Mata is not good at scoring goals. Yet Mata had 32 in 2 years for Chelsea including 20 in his last year there. He got off to a slow start for us with Moyes seemingly not knowing he wasn't a winger, but since his first goal he has been scoring at one every 108 minutes. Extrapolating it out was to show that that is pretty prolific, regardless of how you cut it.

Fact is, Mata is a good goalscorer from AM/10 spots.

PhlegmyMoses · 13-10-2014 08:48PM

Billy86 wrote: »

He said Mata is not good at scoring goals. Yet Mata had 32 in 2 years for Chelsea including 20 in his last year there. He got off to a slow start for us with Moyes seemingly not knowing he wasn't a winger, but since his first goal he has been scoring at one every 108 minutes. Extrapolating it out was to show that that is pretty prolific, regardless of how you cut it.

Fact is, Mata is a good goalscorer from AM/10 spots.

Mata has great goalscoring stats but I find him to be similar to Nani in this regard. Stats look great and capable of genius but it's the in between stuff that can let him down a bit, stuff during the transition where he can let the side down.

Loads of time to rectify this and if he continues to score and assist at the same rate he'll be a big asset. I'd just like to see him do a bit more during crucial phases of play.

Donnielighto · 13-10-2014 08:49PM

Ya, in fairness if you cant use stats to inform predictions then you're just saying gut wins. You need reasons to back them up and stats as raw data are pretty decent. Especially when they cover time under different coaches and in different teams.

Btw at least there is some effort being put into the mata case where rooney's case is being presented as an opinion and a bunch of vague statements or ones that are not being properly backed up.

This is the general vibe I'm getting in here atm.

Donnielighto · 13-10-2014 08:50PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Mata has great goalscoring stats but I find him to be similar to Nani in this regard. Stats look great and capable of genius but it's the in between stuff that can let him down a bit, stuff during the transition where he can let the side down.

Loads of time to rectify this and if he continues to score and assist at the same rate he'll be a big asset. I'd just like to see him do a bit more during crucial phases of play.

Nani, hope he comes back in good spirits and we play with 3 up front.

K4t · 13-10-2014 08:56PM

Why is Blind not playing in midfield for the Dutch? He's an average full back and quite slow too.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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