Is feminism a dirty word?

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 07:54AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think you might have misunderstood the point I was making: I was describing the stereotype of patriarchal thinking.

Oh do please tell me what this "Patriarchy thing" is please.

All MRAs are dying to understand it.

We've asked feminists to tell us what it is but none have bothered to even try to explain it to us.

Karen Straughan AKA Girlwriteswhat has been asking several times for a feminist to tell her and explain what exactly it is and how exactly it oppresses women.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

You said feminist women who control those places hate men. Simple as.

Can you quote where exactly where it was that I said, "feminist women who control those places hate men"?

If you can't quote where it was then please withdraw that statement.

Feminism is a hate ideology which uses the excuse of "Women's equality" to push it's agenda.

Simple to disprove this of course.

Just show me a feminist website, blog, facebook page, campaign, or an organisation which is run by feminists which has anything good to say about boys, men, fathers or masculinity without wanting to change them.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

That is what I read about that girl who won the Nobel prize - "she's getting more focus than the man, that's sexism against men". Despicable but all you can bring in is an anti feminist angle.

If she is supporting the education of girls and boys then it is just not possible that she can be a feminist.

Again prove me wrong, just show me a feminist website, blog, facebook page, campaign, or an organisation which is run by feminists which encourages the education of girls and boys.

I've not seen a single one ever which encourages the education of all of our children.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Yeh Paul Elam and his ilk really are into equality with their hatred of women and such. But I understand he's not representative of all MRA, just like the hardliners aren't representative of all feminists - this will not be acknowledged though; never ever ever ever. Because it's inconvenient.

Show me some proof that he hates women.

FYI over 40% of the editorial staff of AVfM are female.

How many men are on the boards of the feminist owned Women's Aid?

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

You have also said that no feminists want boys to get an education - you are even resorting to lying.

Prove me wrong, just show me a feminist website, blog, facebook page, campaign, or an organisation which is run by feminists which encourages the education of girls and boys.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

And now... feminists have killed millions of Jews?

I am just wondering if you can read or not.

You are going to have to show me where I posted that feminists killed millions of Jews.

FYI there were millions of people across the world who supported the Nazi ideology.

The vast majority of them were not evil people.

So are we to take it that Nazism is not an evil ideology?

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

That's fair enough, but the refusal to acknowledge not all feminists/those who hold views that would be considered feminist are the hardliners is purely because of it being inconvenient to do so - nothing more.

The point is that the nastiest most evil bigoted sexist man hating feminist icons are never condemned by the feminist movement as a whole.

They are revered.

When people point to those poisonous vile evil nasty vicious feminists the excuse usually made is they are part of the "fringe".

They are not part of the fringe.

They are the beating heart of feminism.

If you claim to be for real equality and don't unreservedly condemn them then you are a complete and utter hypocrite.

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 07:58AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

You'd be amazed how attractive intelligence can be to some people.

Practically all the women who support Men's Rights have a 3rd level education.

Obviously not in "Women's studies".

S.L.F · 12-10-2014 09:21AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The problem is that extremist MRAs don't tend to get things done. Extremist feminists do. So while neither extreme is representative of the wider movement, extremist feminists are causing destructive social and legal changes. Extremist MRAs far less so.

The extremist MRAs are ostracized by mainstream MRAs.

Now if feminists will do the same thing that'd be great.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

That's fair enough, but the refusal to acknowledge not all feminists/those who hold views that would be considered feminist are the hardliners is purely because of it being inconvenient to do so - nothing more.

Not all Nazis were bad either.

Minera wrote: »

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree, I continue to find your posts bigoted, offensive and quite frankly antagonistic.

According to this wiki description a bigot is someone who dislikes ideas which makes me guilty as sin.

I suppose I'd also be a bigot when it comes to child sexual abuse as well because I detest child abusers (of both genders BTW).

Bigoted....why because I fight a sick hate ideology?

Offensive....why is feminism not up to a good old debate with facts BTW.

Antagonistic....I also antagonistic to people (men and women) who attack female MRAs.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Gay Byrne/the RSA get more airtime than suicide prevention thanks to feminism, yep.

The little group I am a part of here in Ireland was asked to join a TV discussion on feminism on TV3.

We were not allowed on because none of our female members would go on TV.

They (feminist producer of TV program) refused to allow me to come on because I am a male.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It'd be nice to see an occasional article or movement against censorship by those who consider themselves mainstream feminists? Or counter campaigns for free speech? To give you an analogy, if I as an Irish nationalist saw people campaigning in favour of discrimination against unionists, I wouldn't just say "they don't represent nationalists", I'd be annoyed enough to go out of my way to publicly denounce their agenda. You can say the same for almost any movement. Thus if the campaigns, which have had real-world impact, to ban this and censor that in the name of feminism are not being opposed in this manner, tacit support may be a false assumption - but it's certainly not an unreasonable one.

Have a watch of this please.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Wish people would stop pretending those who agree with some feminist views (and disagree with loads too) are automatically conferred with man-hater, radfem status.
I'm sure it's fun, but it's not fair.

Wish people would stop pretending those who agree with some Nazi views (and disagree with loads too) are automatically conferred with anti-Jew, Gestapo status.
I'm sure it's fun, but it's not fair.

See what I did there?

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I genuinely laughed out loud there. You're some craic.

Good.

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Are you all taking notes, fellas? Just in case any of you were thinking of being primarily attracted to a woman's character or intelligence. This guy is keeping your priorities in check.

Personally I think the most sexy thing about a woman is for her to be confident.

However my experience of feminism is it/they don't want women to be confident.

Rape culture, 1-3 domestic abuse, 1-5 women suffer rape or sexual assault, gender pay gap, women are objectified, glass ceiling, women looked down on, misogynists every where.....all lead to fear in women.

They'd rather have women terrified of men.

The various female MRAs I know have all said when they ditched the poisonous label of feminism and opened their eyes they found the world was not as scary a place as feminism has portrayed it as for women.

Women in fact have it far better than men do world wide.

KomradeBishop · 12-10-2014 10:13AM

S.L.F wrote: »

Show me some proof that he hates women.

FYI over 40% of the editorial staff of AVfM are female.

How many men are on the boards of the feminist owned Women's Aid?

Paul Elam, founder of A Voice For Men, has said this, regarding female rape victims (worth reading the full quote, rather than just the bolded bit):

I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks, playing on their sexual desires so they can get **** faced on the beta dole; paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the “victims” of rape.

But are these women asking to get raped?

In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.

They are freaking begging for it.

Damn near demanding it.

And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.

In my opinion their “plight” from being raped should draw about as much sympathy as a man who loses a wallet full of cash after leaving it laying around a bus station unattended.

http://web.archive.org/web/20111103174336/http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

He is a scumbag, who brings that entire site into disrepute.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:18AM

To say women have it, overall, better globally, with what happens in Afghanistan, Pakistan, swathes of India, the Congo, Somalia, Saudi Arabia... is utterly disgusting, and very telling.

And I am highly critical of radical feminism, but to compare all feminists to an organisation that masterminded and implemented a system that resulted in the extermination of millions of people because of their ethnicity, sexuality, political views... is utterly unhinged. Saying even moderate feminist views (just basic women's rights stuff) are still on a par with nazism (or to use the "Some nazis were ok" logic) is, again, utterly warped.

The poster in question DID say feminist women on the board of organisations like Women's Aid, rape crises centres, the EU and so on, hate men:

S.L.F wrote: »

There are 2 different kinds of feminist.

The ones who hate men, are in control of charities like Women's Aid, Rape Crisis Centers, EU, UN, WHO, Amnesty International and loads more beside and who control media and also many governments, plus those who support them fully.

Admiring Paul Elam - speaks for itself. MRAs saying all feminists deserve to answer for the lunatic fringe element yet not condemning the likes of Paul Elam - utter hypocrisy.

"Anti feminism" is a good smokescreen for good aul misogyny though - the mask always slips.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:23AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Why do you believe comparing nazism and feminism is "unhinged"?

Any two entities can be compared.

You agree things globally are better for women overall, therefore you don't deserve to be acknowledged. You'll be banned soon anyway.

No you can't compared an entity that has killed millions of people, to an entity that... hasn't.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:33AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

When did I agree things are better for women overall? You like making things up.

Thanking tends to mean agreeing with.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:36AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Some people seem to think if you put an organisation in the same sentence as nazism you are saying that that organisation is on par with the evil of nazism. That's ridiculous and makes a mockery of the English language.

That is exactly what they did. Just because it doesn't suit you to acknowledge it, no need to pretend it's not what it is.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:38AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Femme you should take a break from boards, it's making you more and more negative and angry.

What's this "Femme" thing? Second time you've done it - are you ok?

It's hilarious too that someone who has probably hundreds of re-registered and then banned accounts only to have a go at women tells someone else to take a break from Boards because of it making them negative and angry.

Like, have you ANY self awareness...?

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 10:38AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Those comments Paul Elam made are nasty and illogical, those comments alone however don't show he hates women though, they do indicate that he hates the type of women he describes though. I don't know much about him, he may or may not hate women generally.

Paul Elam's youtube username is "TheHappyMisogynist".

Make of that what you will.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:40AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Unusual name, can't comment on him too much as don't know anything substantial about him.

But if he was a woman making the equivalent type of comments, you'd be ALL OVER the criticism of him.

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 10:43AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

Unusual name, can't comment on him too much as don't know anything substantial about him.

He founded and now runs one of the biggest and most heavily trafficked MRA sites.

He is a self-described misogynist.

I think that is a problem for the MRA movement.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:45AM

B0jangles wrote: »

He founded and now runs one of the biggest and most heavily trafficked MRA sites.

He is a self-described misogynist.

I think that is a problem for the MRA movement.

But you and I can happily detach him from the normal, moderate MRAs.

It's apparently not possible to do the same in relation to feminism though - too inconvenient.

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 10:46AM

B0jangles wrote: »

He founded and now runs one of the biggest and most heavily trafficked MRA sites.

He is a self-described misogynist.

I think that is a problem for the MRA movement.

What's the big difference between feminism and the MRA movement? Basic people who believe in MRAs and equality widely condemn him. I know I do!

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 10:46AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

I already was "all over him", I said his comments were nasty and illogical.

Do you think that the wider MRA movement should seek to exclude him and to distance themselves from him and the website he runs?

That is generally what is said whenever any self-described feminist says anything controversial or aggressive about men, never mind a person who is essentially the public face of the movement.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:48AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

What's the big difference between feminism and the MRA movement? Basic people who believe in MRAs and equality widely condemn him. I know I do!

Well people say they don't see proof of moderate feminists condemning hardline ones, and frankly I don't see proof of moderate MRAs condemning the likes of that woman-hating maniac... yet I still believe they do. But yet people refuse to believe moderate feminists condemn the hardline ones.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:49AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

So this guys says that he hates women. My personal opinion would be then that he is an idiot, but I defend the right of every individual to hate, love, like, dislike whatever and whomever they like so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other people.

I defend the rights of women to hate men so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of anyone. People should be allowed to have whatever thoughts and emotions that they experience without punishment so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other individuals.

Yes, thoughts can't be policed. But verbalisation of those thoughts, well, others have the right to dispute them. Two-way street.

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 10:53AM

Bone Broth wrote: »

So this guys says that he hates women. My personal opinion would be then that he is an idiot, but I defend the right of every individual to hate, love, like, dislike whatever and whomever they like so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other people.

I defend the rights of women to hate men so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of anyone. People should be allowed to have whatever thoughts and emotions that they experience without punishment so long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other individuals.

Oh he does this a LOT:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Elam

"In 2011, Elam established the site Register-Her.com, which publishes the personal information of women the site claims "have caused significant harm to innocent individuals either by the direct action of crimes like rape, assault, child molestation and murder, or by the false accusation of crimes against others. While the list includes women who have been sent to prison for various crimes, it also includes others who were acquitted, and some who have not been accused of committing any crime. It also lists any rape victim whose court case results in anything but a full conviction and sentencing as a "false accuser"."

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 10:54AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Do you think that the wider MRA movement should seek to exclude him and to distance themselves from him and the website he runs?

That is generally what is said whenever any self-described feminist says anything controversial or aggressive about men, never mind a person who is essentially the public face of the movement.

I think they definitely do. Also he isn't the only person who runs the website. In fact the real head of the MRA movement (if you really want a figurehead) is Erin Pizzey. She helps run the site and is a MRA because of the experiences she had from feminists when trying to set up a shelter for male victims of domestic abuse.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 10:59AM

If someone said "I think they definitely do" when asked if moderate feminists condemn the lunatic fringe ones, they'd be ridiculed out of the place.

It's ok for MRAs not to be seen to criticise that psycho (and I'm ok with it too - I don't need to be spoonfed reassurance) but not the other equivalent - lets face it.

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 11:01AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I think they definitely do. Also he isn't the only person who runs the website. In fact the real head of the MRA movement (if you really want a figurehead) is Erin Pizzey. She helps run the site and is a MRA because of the experiences she had from feminists when trying to set up a shelter for male victims of domestic abuse.

Is that the same Erin [FONT=arial, helvetica]Pizzey who said [/FONT]"[FONT=arial, helvetica]Men are gentle, honest and straightforward. Women are convoluted, deceptive and dangerous" ?

Yeah, she sounds great.
[/FONT]

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 11:02AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Women are convoluted, deceptive and dangerous" ?

Yeah, she sounds great.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Oh a self loathing woman - they're particularly hilarious in their lack of self awareness.

Wonder what she'd make of Malala Yousafzai. Oh but wait, the focus on Malala's Nobel prize moreso than the Nobel prize of the man... is an horrific, feminism-supported case of sexism against men! (As opposed to her doing that whole defying the Taliban, getting shot by the Taliban and surviving thing - as a teenager).

KomradeBishop · 12-10-2014 11:10AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Oh he does this a LOT:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Elam

"In 2011, Elam established the site Register-Her.com, which publishes the personal information of women the site claims "have caused significant harm to innocent individuals either by the direct action of crimes like rape, assault, child molestation and murder, or by the false accusation of crimes against others. While the list includes women who have been sent to prison for various crimes, it also includes others who were acquitted, and some who have not been accused of committing any crime. It also lists any rape victim whose court case results in anything but a full conviction and sentencing as a "false accuser"."

Ya was using that link to read up on him myself earlier

(RationalWiki is a surprisingly reliable source for finding critical info) Was going to post about that 'register-her' site, but opted for the rape-apologist post, as it was more clear and damning.

He can't have been unaware, that the 'register-her' site, aimed at documenting the private details of people Elam disagrees with, was going to lead to these people getting harassed by some of the more extreme/violent/stalkerish types within the MRA movement, putting them at personal risk - a site disguised as having noble intentions, but aimed at intimidation and harassment.

mrkiscool2 · 12-10-2014 11:11AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Is that the same Erin [FONT=arial, helvetica]Pizzey who said [/FONT]"[FONT=arial, helvetica]Men are gentle, honest and straightforward. Women are convoluted, deceptive and dangerous" ?

Yeah, she sounds great.
[/FONT]

Yeah, you're kind of forgetting that she was the same person who's life was threatened, as were her families and her dog was shot by lovely women. Sure aren't they great? If you had that happen you after trying to help women, seeing how violent they could be and then when you tried to set up a men's shelter be attacked and threatened, having to flee your home country, I think you'd have the same viewpoint as her to be honest.

KomradeBishop · 12-10-2014 11:11AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I think they definitely do. Also he isn't the only person who runs the website. In fact the real head of the MRA movement (if you really want a figurehead) is Erin Pizzey. She helps run the site and is a MRA because of the experiences she had from feminists when trying to set up a shelter for male victims of domestic abuse.

Ya well, like the criticism that is placed against the feminist movement not disassociating from the extremists, why is she happy to contribute to a site founded/run by Elam? Should she not be expected to disassociate too?

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 11:18AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Yeah, you're kind of forgetting that she was the same person who's life was threatened, as were her families and her dog was shot by lovely women. Sure aren't they great? If you had that happen you after trying to help women, seeing how violent they could be and then when you tried to set up a men's shelter be attacked and threatened, having to flee your home country, I think you'd have the same viewpoint as her to be honest.

Christ I wouldn't. Anyone reasonable and normal would just feel hostility towards those particular women and their supporters, not women in general. All the more weird when she is one - is she saying so, that she's violent and threatening?

Those women are utter ***** but someone deciding so, that because of them, all women deserve to be condemned, isn't exactly putting themselves in a flattering light either.

Same with the astronomer Patrick Moore hating all Germans and wanting to see the destruction of Germany, because of what some Germans did to him during WWII.
Same with people hating Irish people because of the IRA.

It's idiocy and lazy - and I have sympathy for the plights of course but for condemnation of people who weren't actually responsible, no matter how blinded these people are by emotion... no way would I ever sympathise with it.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 11:19AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ya well, like the criticism that is placed against the feminist movement not disassociating from the extremists, why is she happy to contribute to a site founded/run by Elam? Should she not be expected to disassociate too?

Because she, a woman, has a problem with women, it would appear.

B0jangles · 12-10-2014 11:20AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Yeah, you're kind of forgetting that she was the same person who's life was threatened, as were her families and her dog was shot by lovely women. Sure aren't they great? If you had that happen you after trying to help women, seeing how violent they could be and then when you tried to set up a men's shelter be attacked and threatened, having to flee your home country, I think you'd have the same viewpoint as her to be honest.

I recognise that she was treated very badly in the past; it appears that her experiences have led her to believe that ALL women are bad, not just the individuals that harrassed and abused her.

If a prominent feminist said "Women are gentle, honest and straightforward. Men are convoluted, deceptive and dangerous", no-one here would care if she had been raped and abused by various men in the past, she'd be dismissed as a lunatic misandrist who was irreparably damaged by her past. We've had threads here on that very topic.

But Ms. Pizzey is apparently immune from such criticism.

FactCheck · 12-10-2014 11:25AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Yeah, you're kind of forgetting that she was the same person who's life was threatened, as were her families and her dog was shot by lovely women.

She has actually since said she doesn't know who shot at her dog.

Shakespeare's Sister · 12-10-2014 11:36AM

I think there's a strong chance in fairness that those loons shot her dog, but she shouldn't have stated they definitely did it; it discredits her.

Is feminism a dirty word?

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