Quick Rules Question

Miley Byrne · 08-10-2014 09:40AM

Would this sum it up?

Player A tees off and is not sure if his ball is in a hazard or lost. He decides to play a provisional.

Scenario 1: He doesn't find his original ball so he continues with his provisional.

Scenario 2: He finds his original ball outside the hazard so the provisional is out of play and he continues with his original ball.

Scenario 3: He finds his ball in the hazard so his provisional becomes the ball in play because when he hit the provisional off the tee his original ball was already in the hazard meaning, unbeknownst to him, it wasn't a provisional ball at all but was 3 off the tee.

If a provisional is played then a drop cannot subsequently be taken from a hazard

Yes, No, Maybe? :pac:

PARlance · 08-10-2014 09:45AM

Ciaranra wrote: »

He was in the middle of fairway no rough just short of hazard
For the record i was not in this 3 ball i just had to listen to lads bang on about it all nite.
Never even gave my opionion just kept it to my self
just put it out there

So it was a drive off a tee on a par 4 or 5?
I think most of us were imagining a Par 3 scenario due to the lack of info:

He is still entitled to hit a provisional but it does potentially change things slightly.

It only changes it in the sense that he may attract a penalty if he is acting the maggot and "practicing" with a provisional ball several times during the round and causing slow play as a result!
The potential penalty is for slow play.

It's all down to the intergrity of the player but technically I could say I'm not sure if I'll find my ball on a lot of holes and could basically use the provisional as a means to sorting something out with my swing.
Once I say it may be lost then I can hit a provisional. I would probably find it harder to find playing partners than my original ball.

Anyway that's slightly beside the point, he was unsure where his ball went.
He should play a provisional in that case.

He should never, as you suggested, decide that the ball MUST have gone into the hazard unless he was absolutely certain it was in there.

PARlance · 08-10-2014 09:55AM

denisoc16 wrote: »

Would this sum it up?

Player A tees off and is not sure if his ball is in a hazard or lost. He decides to play a provisional.

Scenario 1: He doesn't find his original ball so he continues with his provisional.

Scenario 2: He finds his original ball outside the hazard so the provisional is out of play and he continues with his original ball.

Scenario 3: He finds his ball in the hazard so his provisional becomes the ball in play because when he hit the provisional off the tee his original ball was already in the hazard meaning, unbeknownst to him, it wasn't a provisional ball at all but was 3 off the tee.

If a provisional is played then a drop cannot subsequently be taken from a hazard

Yes, No, Maybe? :pac:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No

He has no other option but to play (or take drop with) the original ball if he finds it in the hazard.
He was allowed to play a provisional (as he was unsure) but the provisional has to be picked up as soon as/if the original is found.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

The only other real scenario there is related to Scenario 1:
If he does not find the original, then he cannot decide to take a drop from the hazard because he has already declared he is not virtually certain the ball is there.

GreeBo · 08-10-2014 09:58AM

John Divney wrote: »

I'm Not implying choice, he's three off the tee, that's done and dusted , unknown to him, because he said the ball was in the hazard and was certain, but hit an erroneous provisional.

He walks to the hazard, ball is in, he picks it up and hits the second tee shot he played.

He's basically misidentified a provisional for replaying the tee shot.

It only matters here because he is due no penalty if he did this, but it is unclear what ball he actually played the hole out with.

If he played the right ball he played the right ball that was in play.

But you said
"Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him."

If the ball is found out of the hazard then he cannot pick it up and use the provo, if the ball is found out of the hazard the Provo no longer exists.
There is no penalty for calling it a provo when its not, but, having called it a provo its a provo and as above it has special meaning, whether he understands that or not.

cairny · 08-10-2014 10:07AM

GreeBo wrote: »

But you said
"Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him."

If the ball is found out of the hazard then he cannot pick it up and use the provo, if the ball is found out of the hazard the Provo no longer exists.
There is no penalty for calling it a provo when its not, but, having called it a provo its a provo and as above it has special meaning, whether he understands that or not.

Special meaning? Doesn't matter what he called it, it wasn't a Prov as he wasn't allowed play a prov in this circumstances therefore ball is in play stroke and distance.

What you describe is what happened to Greg Norman and he was told to go back and play the ball that he had called a provisional.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

GreeBo · 08-10-2014 10:52AM

cairny wrote: »

Special meaning? Doesn't matter what he called it, it wasn't a Prov as he wasn't allowed play a prov in this circumstances therefore ball is in play stroke and distance.

What you describe is what happened to Greg Norman and he was told to go back and play the ball that he had called a provisional.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

Norman thought that it might be in the water hazard, not that it might be lost outside of the hazard, thats the difference.

In this case the OPs friend thought the ball could be lost outside the hazard, he is thus entitled to play a provo, if he does not declare it a provo then its a ball in play under stroke and distance, hence its vital what you declare the 2nd ball to be.

John Divney · 08-10-2014 11:53AM

GreeBo wrote: »

Norman thought that it might be in the water hazard, not that it might be lost outside of the hazard, thats the difference.

In this case the OPs friend thought the ball could be lost outside the hazard, he is thus entitled to play a provo, if he does not declare it a provo then its a ball in play under stroke and distance, hence its vital what you declare the 2nd ball to be.

But my whole line of reason is based soley on the premise he thought he might be in the hazard but not lost outside it, which from further information it might have been lost in the hazard but due to the terrain clearly could not have been lost outside it, if was fairway all the way.

That's why he picks the first ball up, and lay 3, and plays to the green for 4.

That was why I was harping on about the right ball being hit is all that matters, not declaring a provisional when you aren't entitled to play it as one.

John Divney · 08-10-2014 12:05PM

Here's how I see it.

1.Tee shot virtually certain in hazard - no Provisional, the next stroke is in play no matter where the first ball is found

2. Player say 'might be in the water, I'll play a provisional'. The ball can only be two places short on fairway, or in the hazard.

He's three off the tee as a balled play solely in the belief it might be in the hazard but clearly is not lost is not entitled to play a provisional.

3. Might be water, in fact pretty sure it was enough club, however there are reeds, trees and rough on the line, ball may be lost outside, play a provisional.

4. Never take relief from a water hazard unless virtually certain it is in, and all available evidence points to it.

Montgolfier · 14-10-2014 11:26PM

PARlance wrote: »

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No

He has no other option but to play (or take drop with) the original ball if he finds it in the hazard.
He was allowed to play a provisional (as he was unsure) but the provisional has to be picked up as soon as/if the original is found.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

The only other real scenario there is related to Scenario 1:
If he does not find the original, then he cannot decide to take a drop from the hazard because he has already declared he is not virtually certain the ball is there.

+1 for rule 27.2c
Prov must be abandoned if ball is found or virtually certain it's in the water hazard

Quick Rules Question

Comments