Quick Rules Question

BraveDonut

Played yesterday and missed the green short left on a par 4.
I found the ball in the rough sitting where a green keeper had dumped a load of green cuttings. I didn't think that I had relief so I played it as it lay - causing me to duff my chip into the bunker.

I went to the R&A site to check the ruling but couldn't find anything under loose impediments.

Could I have taken relief?

Thanks

TrapperChamonix

Whether you can obtain free relief or not depends on whether the grass/leaves are “material piled for removal by a greenkeeper”. If they are, then the player can obtain free relief in the same way as from ground under repair or casual water (see Definition of Ground Under Repair and Rule 25-1b). If however, it is obvious that the grass/leaves are not going to be removed by a greenkeeper, then the player can remove as much of the material as he can surrounding the ball, providing he does not move his ball, as they are loose impediments. Obviously, he will not be able to remove any grass/leaves that lie under the ball. If he does cause his ball to move while clearing the loose impediments, he is penalised one stroke and must replace his ball in the same place, with the same lie (i.e. on the grass/leaves).

BraveDonut

Thanks - Answered my question perfectly.

I really didn't think the cuttings were there for removal so I'm glad I played it as it lay. Didn't even think to remove as much as I could without moving the ball.

PARlance

BraveDonut wrote: »

Played yesterday and missed the green short left on a par 4.
I found the ball in the rough sitting where a green keeper had dumped a load of green cuttings. I didn't think that I had relief so I played it as it lay - causing me to duff my chip into the bunker.

I went to the R&A site to check the ruling but couldn't find anything under loose impediments.

Could I have taken relief?

Thanks

Nope, afaik that would be classed as a loose impediment. You can't take (free) relief from a loose impediment, but you can move the dead grass as long as it doesn't move the ball.
It probably wasn't an option, but in theory, with skilled (and too much time on your) hands , you could have removed all the loose grass from around the ball and left it sitting teed up nicely...as long as you didn't move the ball in the process

Rules 23 is the rule and other major thing to note is that you can't remove lose impediments when they, and your ball, lie in a hazard.

Edit: hadn't spotted trappers response that covers it.

Ciaranra

Sorry a dif rule ?
A lad t-off not sure if his ball reaches a hazard t-off again.
Y i dont know finds his first short of hazard does he continue with this first or prov
This arguement got heated at 4 in the morning between the 2 lads

JIdontknow

I believe from reading up here on the discussions it depends, if he declares it a provisional, he MUST play his original if he finds it, however if he doesn't declare it, and plays it, then his new (third off tee) ball in now in play and must be played. I could be totally wrong though so Im sure someone will confirm it.

mike12

Ciaranra wrote: »

Sorry a dif rule ?
A lad t-off not sure if his ball reaches a hazard t-off again.
Y i dont know finds his first short of hazard does he continue with this first or prov
This arguement got heated at 4 in the morning between the 2 lads

One of the silly rules, he shouldn't have tee off again really. Would dropping at the hazard not have been the best option???
Lots of things come into play if the rough is heavy before the hazard he has to hit a provisional in case the ball is lost if you are virtiualy certain that the ball is in the hazard you can't play a provisional for the ball being in the hazard but you can say you think the ball may be lost short, but unless you find it in the hazard you can't take relief when you get there.
Basically you can't play a provisional for a ball being in a hazard it's either in or not.

Ciaranra

I believe he played prov in the thinking he was in the hazard.
From what i understand if his ball was lost it was clear he entered the hazard no need for prov

John Divney

Ciaranra wrote: »

I believe he played prov in the thinking he was in the hazard.
From what i understand if his ball was lost it was clear he entered the hazard no need for prov

Then he played the wrong ball, his 'provisional' off the tee was in play as he was virtually certain he was in the hazard and had no grounds to play one.

He either walks up and finds the ball short or takes relief from the hazard if the ball could not possibly be anywhere else.

This rule is all about the terrain the ball was headed for. If there is tall grass, rough etc before the hazard and nobody has seen it land, he can play a provisional as the ball may be lost, but he can not avail of relief from the hazard because he does't find the ball subsequently, he must play stroke and distance penalty if he hadn't already hit his provisional.

The rule is meant to stop people claiming dubious relief from the hazard, not stop people hitting provisionals, bu it catches people out.

slave1

Ciaranra wrote: »

..I believe he played prov in the thinking he was in the hazard...

AFAIK you cannot hit a provisional if you think your first ball is in the hazard, if you do then your first ball is out of play and you've played your third off the tee and this ball is the only ball in play, so if you found your first you just pocket it and move on...yes/no

Ciaranra

Yea the lad that pulled him was not backing down on it.
I knew he was right but a few lads later said he was wrong to pull him.
A lad claimiing he knew all the rules because he played off 5 was quikly told he was cheating all his life unknown to him

PARlance

27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

PARlance

Ciaranra wrote: »

I believe he played prov in the thinking he was in the hazard.
From what i understand if his ball was lost it was clear he entered the hazard no need for prov

I believe he was allowed to play the provisional.
Him "thinking" it was in the hazard is not him being "virtually certain" it's in the hazard.
It gets very finicky but "thinking" it may be in the hazard also lends itself to thinking it may not be in the hazard.., unless he's certain it went into the hazard, then he can play a provisional.

Not applicable to this scenario but;
What he couldn't do is play the provisional and then take a drop for the first one.... Unless he finds it in the hazard.
Playing the provisional is saying you're not virtually certain the ball is in the hazard. So, finding it is the only way the be certain.

Ciaranra

slave1 wrote: »

AFAIK you cannot hit a provisional if you think your first ball is in the hazard, if you do then your first ball is out of play and you've played your third off the tee and this ball is the only ball in play, so if you found your first you just pocket it and move on...yes/no

I would think yes

Ciaranra

PARlance wrote: »

I believe he was allowed to play the provisional.
Him "thinking" it was in the hazard is not him being "virtually certain" it's in the hazard.
It gets very finicky but "thinking" it may be in the hazard also lends itself to thinking it may not be in the hazard.., unless he's certain it went into the hazard, then he can play a provisional.

Not applicable to this scenario but;
What he couldn't do is play the provisional and then take a drop for the first one.... Unless he finds it in the hazard.
Playing the provisional is saying you're not virtually certain the ball is in the hazard. So, finding it is the only way the be certain.

His first ball was short of hazard so he had 2 balls in play

PARlance

Ciaranra wrote: »

His first ball was short of hazard so he had 2 balls in play

If after hitting his first he said something like "I think that's in the hazard but I'll hit a provisional incase it is lost short" then he's entitled to do so.

It relies a lot on intergrity, if the area that he hit into is an area that you'd expect to find a ball easily if it was short, then he shouldn't really be hitting a provisional... But the rules couldn't stop him if he wants to say it might be lost.

Ciaranra

PARlance wrote: »

If after hitting his first he said something like "I think that's in the hazard but I'll hit a provisional incase it is lost short" then he's entitled to do so.

It relies a lot on intergrity, if the area that he hit into is an area that you'd expect to find a ball easily if it was short, then he shouldn't really be hitting a provisional... But the rules couldn't stop him if he wants to say it might be lost.

Rules dont stop him but is his prov the ball he needs to continue with

PARlance

Ciaranra wrote: »

Rules dont stop him but is his prov the ball he needs to continue with

It all depends....
If he hit his first and wasn't sure if it was in the hazard or lost short then he can hit his provisional. That's the key point, he has to be unsure about it being in the hazard or lost short.

If that was the case and he finds his ball short. Then he plays it and picks up the provisional.


Not related to this scenario but:
If he couldn't find the ball at all then he has to play the provisional. Ie he can't turn around and say "it must have crossed the hazard here so" and take relief.

John Divney

Sorry I was confused, did he actually play the Provisional as Three?

He was entitled to do that.The thing is he wasn't cheating knowingly, or trying to gain an advantage, the relief from a water hazard is much better than a lost ball.

What he was doing was saving time.

The 'virtually certain' change was brought in to take the 'ah sure it must have gone in, we can't find it, I'll drop one here' attitude out of the game. You have to really have full knowledge it's in the hazard based on all available evidence to get relief.

You can't play a provisional because the relief is actually better up at the hazard, and to stop players having a choice between hitting it out of a hazard or finding it short, or the provisional.

The crime is playing the wrong ball, not calling it a 'provisional', you can say that's in the water I'm hitting a provisional all you like, The problem only arises if someone finds the first by some fluke( it bounced out) or it never went in and they pick up the provisional, or they try to take relief from the hazard where they know the ball crossed.

GreeBo

Ciaranra wrote: »

His first ball was short of hazard so he had 2 balls in play

No, if the first ball is short then the first ball is the only ball in play.
You never have two balls in play, you never get to choose, hence this rule.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote:

The crime is playing the wrong ball, not calling it a 'provisional', you can say that's in the water I'm hitting a provisional all you like, The problem only arises if someone finds the first by some fluke( it bounced out) or it never went in and they pick up the provisional, or they try to take relief from the hazard where they know the ball crossed.

Sorry you cannot, if it's in the water and you hit another ball you just put a ball in play under stroke and distance.
If the ball is in the water there is no option for a provisional.
The provisional becomes an option if the ball may be lost outside of the hazard.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry you cannot, if it's in the water and you hit another ball you just put a ball in play under stroke and distance.
If the ball is in the water there is no option for a provisional.
The provisional becomes an option if the ball may be lost outside of the hazard.

You can call it anything thing you want is my point, but you cannot hit the wrong ball, which is what the penalty is for.

If he says 'I'm hitting a provisional, that's definitely in the water' and he doesn't find the first ball in or out of the hazard, he hits what he called the provisional, he's fine, even if he doesn't know he was 3 off the tee as soon as he hit it.

If he played the second tee shot he's fine, there is some confusion on my part as to what ball he actually played? Are the lads saying he wasn't entitled to hit what they are calling a provisional ( a second tee shot) because he was sure he was in the water, even if he picks up the first ball?

Because he was, as long as he continued playing it, whether he knew it was not an actual provisional or not.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

You can call it anything thing you want is my point, but you cannot hit the wrong ball, which is what the penalty is for.

If he says 'I'm hitting a provisional, that's definitely in the water' and he doesn't find the first ball in or out of the hazard, he hits what he called the provisional, he's fine, even if he doesn't know he was 3 off the tee as soon as he hit it.

If he played the second tee shot he's fine, there is some confusion on my part as to what ball he actually played? Are the lads saying he wasn't entitled to hit what they are calling a provisional ( a second tee shot) because he was sure he was in the water, even if he picks up the first ball?

Because he was, as long as he continued playing it, whether he knew it was not an actual provisional or not.

How can he pick up the first ball if it's in the water?
He is not entitled to do anything with the second ball if the first ball is found or known to be in the hazard if he called it a provisional.

What the ball is declared is vital, you cannot call it whatever you want. What if the ball is found outside of the hazard, then it being declared provisional or not is the only deciding factor.

If your point is that it doesn't matter as long as he accidentally picks the right course of action I think that's just confusing and doesn't help ascertain the correct course of action.
're designating what status a provisional has is wrong, a provisional is played in specific circumstances.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

How can he pick up the first ball if it's in the water?
He is not entitled to do anything with the second ball if the first ball is found or known to be in the hazard if he called it a provisional.


If your point is that it doesn't matter as long as he accidentally picks the right course of action I think that's just confusing and doesn't help ascertain the correct course of action.
're designating what status a provisional has is wrong, a provisional is played in specific circumstances.

Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him.

It matters here because he could have played the correct ball for the correct score, but was told he was wrong because he called it a provisional .

It's not a matter of redesignating what a provisional is, my point is the penalty is for playing the wrong ball, and in this situation as he was ignorant of the rule in the first place, all that matters was that he played the right ball not what he declared it to be.

It isn't clear what actually happened in this scenario.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him.

Sorry what?if he finds the first ball out of the hazard then that's the ball in play!
You are implying he had a choice, he doesn't.
If he finds the first ball out of the hazard and wants the strike and distance option then he goes back to the tee, you can't just use the proximal as a short cut.

By suing you can call it what you want you are confusing the situation further imo.

PARlance

It's getting quite confusing, this is all we have to work with

Ciaranra wrote: »

Sorry a dif rule ?
A lad t-off not sure if his ball reaches a hazard t-off again.
Y i dont know finds his first short of hazard does he continue with this first or prov
This arguement got heated at 4 in the morning between the 2 lads

Let's call they guy Player A.
Player A tees off and as per above, he is not sure if he reaches the hazard.
Player A does not know if the ball is in the hazard or lost outside the hazard.
Player A is perfectly entitled to hit a provisional (he must declare it obviously)!

Ciaranra is questioning why he bothered hitting a provisional.
Ciaranra has a misunderstanding of the rules as highlighted below

Ciaranra wrote: »

From what i understand if his ball was lost it was clear he entered the hazard no need for prov

You can't stand on the tee and basically say "if we can't find it then it's in the hazard".
In this instance, the ball was actually found short of the hazard... If they didn't find it, it would be still lying there but Ciaranra would have been playing by his own rules and would have incorrectly taken a drop from the hazard.

So Player A was unsure as to where the ball was. He correctly played a provisional. He found the original and he correctly proceeded to play that original.

Think you might owe Player A a pint

Ciaranra wrote: »

Yea the lad that pulled him was not backing down on it.
I knew he was right but a few lads later said he was wrong to pull him.
A lad claimiing he knew all the rules because he played off 5 was quikly told he was cheating all his life unknown to him

PARlance

Actually, we're not told if Player A plays the first ball once he finds it.
I am assuming he did.

If he found it, pocketed it and went over and played the provisional then that's the only way he can be wrong.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry what?if he finds the first ball out of the hazard then that's the ball in play!
You are implying he had a choice, he doesn't.
If he finds the first ball out of the hazard and wants the strike and distance option then he goes back to the tee, you can't just use the proximal as a short cut.

By suing you can call it what you want you are confusing the situation further imo.

I'm Not implying choice, he's three off the tee, that's done and dusted , unknown to him, because he said the ball was in the hazard and was certain, but hit an erroneous provisional.

He walks to the hazard, ball is in, he picks it up and hits the second tee shot he played.

He's basically misidentified a provisional for replaying the tee shot.

It only matters here because he is due no penalty if he did this, but it is unclear what ball he actually played the hole out with.

If he played the right ball he played the right ball that was in play.

PARlance

John Divney wrote: »

I'm Not implying choice, he's three off the tee, that's done and dusted , unknown to him, because he said the ball was in the hazard and was certain, but hit an erroneous provisional.

I don't think this is the case at all John.
Player A wasn't sure if the first ball was in the hazard.
You can think a ball might be in a hazard without being certain and if he's not certain he can hit a provisional. I think that was the case for Player A.

Hence why he called a provisional and why he went looking for it short in the first place.

John Divney

PARlance wrote: »

I don't think this is the case at all John.
Player A wasn't sure if the first ball was in the hazard.
You can think a ball might be in a hazard without being certain and if he's not certain he can hit a provisional. I think that was the case for Player A.

Hence why he called a provisional and why he went looking for it short in the first place.

Ah he replied to me he thought it was water and hit a provisional. Confusing.

Which would be the Greg Norman situation where he said exactly that and got done when he picked up the second ball, which was now in play.

If there is no rough in the line of the ball and the hazard, it can not be lost, unless it plugged or there was standing water on the course, so he would be 3 off the tee unless the terrain was one where a ball may be lost,

Ciaranra

He was in the middle of fairway no rough just short of hazard
For the record i was not in this 3 ball i just had to listen to lads bang on about it all nite.
Never even gave my opionion just kept it to my self
just put it out there

Miley Byrne

Would this sum it up?

Player A tees off and is not sure if his ball is in a hazard or lost. He decides to play a provisional.

Scenario 1: He doesn't find his original ball so he continues with his provisional.

Scenario 2: He finds his original ball outside the hazard so the provisional is out of play and he continues with his original ball.

Scenario 3: He finds his ball in the hazard so his provisional becomes the ball in play because when he hit the provisional off the tee his original ball was already in the hazard meaning, unbeknownst to him, it wasn't a provisional ball at all but was 3 off the tee.

If a provisional is played then a drop cannot subsequently be taken from a hazard

Yes, No, Maybe? :pac:

PARlance

Ciaranra wrote: »

He was in the middle of fairway no rough just short of hazard
For the record i was not in this 3 ball i just had to listen to lads bang on about it all nite.
Never even gave my opionion just kept it to my self
just put it out there

So it was a drive off a tee on a par 4 or 5?
I think most of us were imagining a Par 3 scenario due to the lack of info:


He is still entitled to hit a provisional but it does potentially change things slightly.

It only changes it in the sense that he may attract a penalty if he is acting the maggot and "practicing" with a provisional ball several times during the round and causing slow play as a result!
The potential penalty is for slow play.

It's all down to the intergrity of the player but technically I could say I'm not sure if I'll find my ball on a lot of holes and could basically use the provisional as a means to sorting something out with my swing.
Once I say it may be lost then I can hit a provisional. I would probably find it harder to find playing partners than my original ball.


Anyway that's slightly beside the point, he was unsure where his ball went.
He should play a provisional in that case.

He should never, as you suggested, decide that the ball MUST have gone into the hazard unless he was absolutely certain it was in there.

PARlance

denisoc16 wrote: »

Would this sum it up?

Player A tees off and is not sure if his ball is in a hazard or lost. He decides to play a provisional.

Scenario 1: He doesn't find his original ball so he continues with his provisional.

Scenario 2: He finds his original ball outside the hazard so the provisional is out of play and he continues with his original ball.

Scenario 3: He finds his ball in the hazard so his provisional becomes the ball in play because when he hit the provisional off the tee his original ball was already in the hazard meaning, unbeknownst to him, it wasn't a provisional ball at all but was 3 off the tee.

If a provisional is played then a drop cannot subsequently be taken from a hazard

Yes, No, Maybe? :pac:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No



He has no other option but to play (or take drop with) the original ball if he finds it in the hazard.
He was allowed to play a provisional (as he was unsure) but the provisional has to be picked up as soon as/if the original is found.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

The only other real scenario there is related to Scenario 1:
If he does not find the original, then he cannot decide to take a drop from the hazard because he has already declared he is not virtually certain the ball is there.

GreeBo

John Divney wrote: »

I'm Not implying choice, he's three off the tee, that's done and dusted , unknown to him, because he said the ball was in the hazard and was certain, but hit an erroneous provisional.

He walks to the hazard, ball is in, he picks it up and hits the second tee shot he played.

He's basically misidentified a provisional for replaying the tee shot.

It only matters here because he is due no penalty if he did this, but it is unclear what ball he actually played the hole out with.

If he played the right ball he played the right ball that was in play.

But you said
"Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him."

If the ball is found out of the hazard then he cannot pick it up and use the provo, if the ball is found out of the hazard the Provo no longer exists.
There is no penalty for calling it a provo when its not, but, having called it a provo its a provo and as above it has special meaning, whether he understands that or not.

cairny

GreeBo wrote: »

But you said
"Yes. If he finds the first ball in or out of the hazard, of course he can pick it up and play the stroke and distance he thought was a provisional and was in play unknown to him."

If the ball is found out of the hazard then he cannot pick it up and use the provo, if the ball is found out of the hazard the Provo no longer exists.
There is no penalty for calling it a provo when its not, but, having called it a provo its a provo and as above it has special meaning, whether he understands that or not.

Special meaning? Doesn't matter what he called it, it wasn't a Prov as he wasn't allowed play a prov in this circumstances therefore ball is in play stroke and distance.

What you describe is what happened to Greg Norman and he was told to go back and play the ball that he had called a provisional.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

GreeBo

cairny wrote: »

Special meaning? Doesn't matter what he called it, it wasn't a Prov as he wasn't allowed play a prov in this circumstances therefore ball is in play stroke and distance.

What you describe is what happened to Greg Norman and he was told to go back and play the ball that he had called a provisional.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/when-you-may-not-play-provisional-ball.html

Norman thought that it might be in the water hazard, not that it might be lost outside of the hazard, thats the difference.

In this case the OPs friend thought the ball could be lost outside the hazard, he is thus entitled to play a provo, if he does not declare it a provo then its a ball in play under stroke and distance, hence its vital what you declare the 2nd ball to be.

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

Norman thought that it might be in the water hazard, not that it might be lost outside of the hazard, thats the difference.

In this case the OPs friend thought the ball could be lost outside the hazard, he is thus entitled to play a provo, if he does not declare it a provo then its a ball in play under stroke and distance, hence its vital what you declare the 2nd ball to be.

But my whole line of reason is based soley on the premise he thought he might be in the hazard but not lost outside it, which from further information it might have been lost in the hazard but due to the terrain clearly could not have been lost outside it, if was fairway all the way.

That's why he picks the first ball up, and lay 3, and plays to the green for 4.

That was why I was harping on about the right ball being hit is all that matters, not declaring a provisional when you aren't entitled to play it as one.

John Divney

Here's how I see it.

1.Tee shot virtually certain in hazard - no Provisional, the next stroke is in play no matter where the first ball is found

2. Player say 'might be in the water, I'll play a provisional'. The ball can only be two places short on fairway, or in the hazard.

He's three off the tee as a balled play solely in the belief it might be in the hazard but clearly is not lost is not entitled to play a provisional.

3. Might be water, in fact pretty sure it was enough club, however there are reeds, trees and rough on the line, ball may be lost outside, play a provisional.

4. Never take relief from a water hazard unless virtually certain it is in, and all available evidence points to it.

Montgolfier

PARlance wrote: »

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No



He has no other option but to play (or take drop with) the original ball if he finds it in the hazard.
He was allowed to play a provisional (as he was unsure) but the provisional has to be picked up as soon as/if the original is found.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

The only other real scenario there is related to Scenario 1:
If he does not find the original, then he cannot decide to take a drop from the hazard because he has already declared he is not virtually certain the ball is there.

+1 for rule 27.2c
Prov must be abandoned if ball is found or virtually certain it's in the water hazard