Asking A Father's Permission

newport2 · 01-10-2014 09:00AM

bluewolf wrote: »

I never get how people aren't allowed have their own preferences on this without someone else waving around another activity like a trump card

I never get how people aren't allowed have their own opinions on a blog which asked for their input without someone else wagging their finger at them for doing so.

nibtrix · 01-10-2014 09:01AM

foreverandever wrote: »

My understanding of it was that before a woman used live at home until she was married and her father would take care of her, now your husband to be is saying he's going to take care of you and it's for your father to know his daughter will be cared for.

Not anything about property

Which suggests that we can't take care of ourselves but need someone to look after us? That's equally as insulting as being "property".

01-10-2014 09:02AM

newport2 wrote: »

I never get how people aren't allowed have their own opinions on a blog which asked for their input without someone else wagging their finger at them for doing so.

You made a claim that there were no objections at all to engagement rings. Which isn't true
So ...

It comes up on other threads about it too. You don't like the permission thing? But I bet you'll be walked down the aisle! or have a ring! a-HA!!

Gongoozler · 01-10-2014 09:03AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm sorry, but if it's about me getting married, it is about me and my future husband and nobody else.
Unless there are children involved, of course.
I would say if anyone outsidethe couple should be involved at all in the decision in any shape or form, it would be their children not their parents.

Of course it's up to you if you want to ignore your parents feelings about it. I was simply pointing out not everybody needs to be insulted over it.

foreverandever · 01-10-2014 09:11AM

nibtrix wrote: »

Which suggests that we can't take care of ourselves but need someone to look after us? That's equally as insulting as being "property".

I don't know how you could be offended by someone saying they'd like to take care of you?! The whole part of marriage is that now you're a team and you take care of each other. In sickness and in health etc

newport2 · 01-10-2014 09:11AM

bluewolf wrote: »

You made a claim that there were no objections at all to engagement rings. Which isn't true
So ...

It comes up on other threads about it too. You don't like the permission thing? But I bet you'll be walked down the aisle! or have a ring! a-HA!!

My point was - as I suspect you know bw - a far higher proportion of people would object to asking permission than would object to engagement rings, despite both traditions being rooted in the concept that women are property owned by men. Not that nobody has ever objected to an engagement ring.

I haven't seen any other threads on this topic before, so I'm not basing what I should and shouldn't say on previous ones. So apologies if the point has been made before.

Robsweezie · 01-10-2014 09:23AM

why you gotta be so rude?

Sugar Free · 01-10-2014 09:26AM

In my experience the vast majority of men who do this were either outright instructed to or heavily encouraged by their partner. The reasons were either because they liked the idea or knew one or both of their parents would.

This seems to be getting overlooked by a lot of people and I think is what some posters were trying to say.

Of course in cases where the guy just does it without consulting his partner on the best course of action, then I would certainly agree regarding disrespect etc.

dede12 · 01-10-2014 09:28AM

newport2 wrote: »

I agree. But engagement rings evolved as a level of insurance to the woman, because:

"If the groom-to-be walked out after he and the bride-to-be had sex, that left her in a precarious position. From a social angle, she had been permanently "damaged." From an economic angle, she had lost her market value."

Pretty chauvinistic tradition too. No objections to engagement rings though.

Comparing it to rings is a false equivalency though, the rings purpose has evolved with time to have a different meaning now, this tradition hasn't really. A primary reason for the ring nowadays is to publicly acknowledge the relationship, its a way of making it obvious to everyone you meet that you're in a serious committed relationship - that is why both men and women wear wedding rings. And the wedding is part of that too, the whole point of getting married is that you're making a lasting commitment to each other in front of your whole community (at least in a symbolic sense & legalities aside).

For what its worth though, I don't know any women my age who would object to getting their fiance an engagement ring, I've only ever encountered guys who object to the idea - like they'd find it emasculating or something. I know its becoming fairly common now among couples in my area for a woman to get her fiance either a ring or some sort of 'man jewlery' similar in value to the ring she received, so like a fancy engraved watch or something like that, as an engagement present, so it serves sort of the same purpose as the ring.

newport2 · 01-10-2014 09:31AM

dede12 wrote: »

Comparing it to rings is a false equivalency though. A main reason for the ring nowadays is to publicly acknowledge the relationship, its a way of making it obvious to everyone you meet that you're in a serious committed relationship - that is why both men and women wear wedding rings. And the wedding is part of that too, the whole point of getting married is that you're making a lasting commitment to each other in front of your whole community (at least in a symbolic sense & legalities aside).

For what its worth though, I don't know any women my age who would object to getting their fiance an engagement ring, I've only ever encountered guys who object to the idea - like they'd find it emasculating or something. I know its becoming fairly common now among couples in my area for a woman to get her fiance either a ring or some sort of 'man jewlery' similar in value to the ring she received, so like a fancy engraved watch or something like that, as an engagement present, so it serves sort of the same purpose as the ring.

Fair enough

Esterhase · 01-10-2014 09:33AM

foreverandever wrote: »

I don't know how you could be offended by someone saying they'd like to take care of you?! The whole part of marriage is that now you're a team and you take care of each other. In sickness and in health etc

One would hope that the couple in question are already taking care of each other before proposals are made, and that the parents already know this to be the case.

Even if the whole thing was about letting dads know their daughters were being taken care of, why should that happen before the proposal? I'd still rather make the decision to get married together, with no other input. Then we, as a team, could let both sets of parents know that both of their children are being taken care of.

That's my own personal situation anyway. Of course other people can do whatever will make them happy, but I just flat out don't get the appeal.

pajor · 01-10-2014 09:39AM

"She didn't ask for my permission when she became a whooooore!" :pac:

Balmed Out · 01-10-2014 09:40AM

Sugar Free wrote: »

In my experience the vast majority of men who do this were either outright instructed to or heavily encouraged by their partner. The reasons were either because they liked the idea or knew one or both of their parents would.

This seems to be getting overlooked by a lot of people and I think is what some posters were trying to say.

Of course in cases where the guy just does it without consulting his partner on the best course of action, then I would certainly agree regarding disrespect etc.

Most of my friends and I have asked without ever saying to to girlfriends beforehand. None were pressured to do it. All would have proposed if he had refused.
IMHO its just a nice way of involving her father in everything and nothing more. Nobody doing it is in any way trying to disrespect anybody.

Its just a tradition and doesn't need to be taken so seriously, how many women tell their father he cant walk her up the aisle as she is not his possession to give away, or refuse a white dress etc etc. Plenty of traditions where the symbolism is no longer valid but doesn't mean they necessarily have to be adhered to or ignored, do whatever feels right to you.

01-10-2014 09:47AM

Definitely is still done, I know a number of people who have gotten engaged/married recently and they have all done it. It's the right thing to do and I would ask myself without doubt. I would find it a bit disrespectful not to as its a long standing tradition.

Shenshen · 01-10-2014 09:52AM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Its just a tradition and doesn't need to be taken so seriously, how many women tell their father he cant walk her up the aisle as she is not his possession to give away, or refuse a white dress etc etc. Plenty of traditions where the symbolism is no longer valid but doesn't mean they necessarily have to be adhered to or ignored, do whatever feels right to you.

At this point, I realise that I'm way more of a rebel than I had ever thought.
I did not have my father walk me down the aisle, for 3 reasons : it's not traditional where I come from, the couple would always enter the church and walk down the aisle together.
I haven't spoken to my father in well over 30 years now.
And lastly, we were not married in a church, so there was no aisle to begin with.

My dress was purple, as I really dislike white. And I tend to find most purpose-made wedding dresses rather - well, not nice at all. My husband had actually found the dress for me, and I loved it.

It's not that I refuse to do things the traditional way because I dislike tradition - I just didn't like the traditional options. And I don't see the point in tradition for tradition's sake. I usually ends up making people less happy.

01-10-2014 09:55AM

Shenshen wrote: »

My dress was purple, as I really dislike white. And I tend to find most purpose-made wedding dresses rather - well, not nice at all. My husband had actually found the dress for me, and I loved it.

Coooool

I would pick a blue one

The Hill Billy · 01-10-2014 09:56AM

I proposed to Mrs Billy on the spur of the moment, so asking her Dad for permission was a moot point. However, I did have a chat with him afterwards to assure him that 'my intentions were honorable' as we had been going out for less than a year & there was a bit of an age difference.

I don't think that it is so much asking for permission, but rather assuring the parents that their daughter will be entering a stable, loving & long-lasting relationship. Parents are protective of their children & want their well-being assured, especially daughters.

That's my €0.02, but I'm an ol' fogey.

Shenshen · 01-10-2014 09:59AM

bluewolf wrote: »

Coooool

I would pick a blue one

A friend of mine had a gorgeous dark green one.
And we both found you can have a tailor-made dress in exactly the colour and fabric you want for a fraction of one of the off-the-rail wedding dresses.

Balmed Out · 01-10-2014 10:01AM

Shenshen wrote: »

It's not that I refuse to do things the traditional way because I dislike tradition - I just didn't like the traditional options. And I don't see the point in tradition for tradition's sake. I usually ends up making people less happy.

Fair enough. I find the last sentence odd though, why so? I would have thought the opposite. More headaches and choices for the couple, some people getting more and more competitive over wedding's and the odd person more likely to get their nose out of joint.

Czarcasm · 01-10-2014 10:01AM

There's seems to be a good many posters here object to the idea or feel insulted by the idea on the basis that a man must view a woman as 'property' if he asks her fathers permission to marry his daughter, or object to the idea on the basis that it's between the couple and it's nobody else's business.

I can only speak for myself when I say that neither thought ever occurred to me. I would never view anyone as 'property', but if I'm expecting to marry a man's daughter, I'm asking for his permission to become my father in law and accept me into his family, as part of his family.

If her father had refused, then I wouldn't have asked his daughter to marry me, as I feel that would be me imposing myself on his family. I was lucky in that I already got on well with all my wife's family already, because their opinion is important to me too.

As for the whole "didn't ask his permission to have sex", no, I didn't, but I wasn't asking to become part of his family then. That much is between myself and my wife at least, so I see no correlation between the two. In my view at least, there's nothing wrong with asking her father's permission to become part of his family, even if it was never tradition.

neris · 01-10-2014 10:02AM

friend of mine did it. the only reason he asked was coz he knew if he asked her parents they would pay for the wedding

Sugar Free · 01-10-2014 10:02AM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Most of my friends and I have asked without ever saying to to girlfriends beforehand. None were pressured to do it. All would have proposed if he had refused.
IMHO its just a nice way of involving her father in everything and nothing more. Nobody doing it is in any way trying to disrespect anybody.

Its just a tradition and doesn't need to be taken so seriously, how many women tell their father he cant walk her up the aisle as she is not his possession to give away, or refuse a white dress etc etc. Plenty of traditions where the symbolism is no longer valid but doesn't mean they necessarily have to be adhered to or ignored, do whatever feels right to you.

I can appreciate keeping traditions but I think some of them need to adapt to more modern times. For me, discussing with a partner whether or not asking for blessing/permission etc. is required is one such adaptation.

Of course, I've no doubt that in your case (and others) you know your partners well enough to make the judgement yourself. I just think it's in keeping with other changes in the way that a dowry isn't set any more (at least I hope not!), some brides like to give a speech too etc.

Honestly though, I don't have strong feelings on it either way. As you said, whatever is right for the particular couple.

Jawgap · 01-10-2014 10:03AM

We were engaged when I went to ask her Dad - not because we needed his approval or permission.

I did it because I like the guy and I knew he'd appreciate the gesture - even if it was only 'ceremonial.'

I doubt it would have bothered him if I didn't 'ask' as he already new we were getting married.

......but it did lead to us having a very long, pleasant and interesting discussion on a range of things.

tigger123 · 01-10-2014 10:04AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's seems to be a good many posters here object to the idea or feel insulted by the idea on the basis that a man must view a woman as 'property' if he asks her fathers permission to marry his daughter, or object to the idea on the basis that it's between the couple and it's nobody else's business.

I can only speak for myself when I say that neither thought ever occurred to me. I would never view anyone as 'property', but if I'm expecting to marry a man's daughter, I'm asking for his permission to become my father in law and accept me into his family, as part of his family.

If her father had refused, then I wouldn't have asked his daughter to marry me, as I feel that would be me imposing myself on his family. I was lucky in that I already got on well with all my wife's family already, because their opinion is important to me too.

As for the whole "didn't ask his permission to have sex", no, I didn't, but I wasn't asking to become part of his family then. That much is between myself and my wife at least, so I see no correlation between the two. In my view at least, there's nothing wrong with asking her father's permission to become part of his family, even if it was never tradition.

So if your girlfriend wanted to marry you, you wanted to marry her, but the father refused 'permission' you guys wouldn't have gotten married?

Balmed Out · 01-10-2014 10:04AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

T
If her father had refused, then I wouldn't have asked his daughter to marry me

Really? Hadn't thought anyone felt like that. What if she asked you after he had refused?

01-10-2014 10:10AM

Marriage is not really an option in the relationship I am in - but we did enter into a lot of legal contracts and the like that pretty much "married" us in a lot of ways.

However at no point during any of this did it occur to me to ask their fathers permission for anything. I see no reason why I might have. I do not even think "permission" is theirs to give. Perhaps it is some throw back to the cultures of dowries or the father of the bride being expected to pay for the wedding and so forth? But I can see no reason to do so today - nor do I see it as a "courtesy" or "respect" to do so. It is more likely in my mind to be related to some people enjoying the retention of tradition.

The only "courtesy" or "respect" I felt compelled to show their parents - or in fact that they seemed to ever expect or hope for - which I very much did do - was to ensure that AFTER we made our decisions - that they were the first to hear about it before anyone else. I simply saw it as the right thing to do to make sure my parents - and theirs - heard about it from us before anyone else. I imagine it is very disappointing to hear about your child's marriage second hand from another source, not to mention somewhat embarrassing too.

OldGoat · 01-10-2014 10:14AM

I didn't ask my father in law for permission but I did tell him that I intended to marry. It was not that I felt I had to do it but more that I thought he might appreciate the gesture. It also gave us the excuse to go to the pub and get ****faced together.
Twenty two years later and the father of two daughters I fully expect any future son in law to make the gesture by telling me about any plans. I relish the potential for embarrassing the little shíte, for terrifying him with stories of the retribution I'll heap upon his head if he messes up. I've been planning on that day since my kids were born.
If they take that pleasure away from me I shall really disappointed.

No matter how alternative you want your wedding to be there are some traditions that should be adhered to and the ability of a father in law to terrify a son in law is one of the best to be kept.

FactCheck · 01-10-2014 10:15AM

Like many others have said, it's not a tradition I care for for a lot of reasons. I'm very glad my husband didn't ask permission and my father would hardly have expected it given that he didn't ask my grandparents either!

One of my main reasons why it would have upset me though is that I am very close to both my parents. They are wonderful people and they adore my husband. Getting to see the looks on their faces when they heard we were getting married is one of my happiest memories.

01-10-2014 10:15AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm expecting to marry a man's daughter, I'm asking for his permission to become my father in law and accept me into his family, as part of his family.

A couple of things here make it hard for me to see your way of thinking on this.

First: The father of the girl is not the spokesperson for an entire family. So why presume to have him speak on their behalf? He might accept - but the family actually do not want you and see you as an imposition. He might reject - but in fact aside from him personally the family do want you a lot. If the opinions of the "family" really did matter to you - as you claim - would it not actually make more sense to put your request for marriage to them all as a democratic vote and not to one single arbitrarily selected person? Why the father even? Why not the mother? Or the oldest surviving member of the family unit? Or the youngest member who - in all probability - will have to put up with you as a member of the family for much longer than the father will given he is likely to outlive the father?

Second: Why does it only go one way? Why does the man ask the father of the bride? Surely the marriage is introducing her into YOUR family too? Who gets a say in that? Who asks YOUR dad about it? Or by asking her to marry you are you giving that permission to be part of YOUR family? If so then why is she not afforded the same right to do so? How can you speak for your family - but she can not for hers and needs daddy to do it? I do not think I recall one person who was "for" this asking of the father who ever said "Yeah I asked her dad for permission - but I also asked my own dad too".

Shenshen · 01-10-2014 10:16AM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Fair enough. I find the last sentence odd though, why so? I would have thought the opposite. More headaches and choices for the couple, some people getting more and more competitive over wedding's and the odd person more likely to get their nose out of joint.

Could be just me, but I found it so much easier to simply sit down with my then-fiance and decide what we wanted. If we had had to take into account what tradition would demand of us, it would have wrecked both our heads.

Asking A Father's Permission

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