The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

The Cush · 23-09-2014 11:59am #1

Announced this morning - http://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/press-releases/2014/0923/645685-rte-radio-1-moves-from-longwave-transmission/

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/static/2014/0821/638554-stay-tuned/
http://static.rasset.ie/documents/radio1/rte-radio-1-staytuned.pdf

Digifriendly · 23-09-2014 12:28pm

Not good news for car radio buffs here in NI where RTE FM signal fades out and we rely on LW to get decent reception.

Apogee · 23-09-2014 12:47pm

So will they be using the money saved to finally roll out DAB properly for the rest of the country?

swoofer · 23-09-2014 1:05pm

that would be nice but isnt dab worse than FM in sound quality so lets hope it never arrives.

The Cush · 23-09-2014 1:26pm

swoofer wrote: »

that would be nice but isnt dab worse than FM in sound quality

In my opinion no.

The Cush · 23-09-2014 1:42pm

Apogee wrote: »

So will they be using the money saved to finally roll out DAB properly for the rest of the country?

No, this is their policy on DAB

The RTÉ DAB radio test service is available to in excess of 50% of the population. In the absence of a national policy and licensing framework for commercial DAB services the development of the DAB platform beyond this test is unlikely to proceed to a higher level of penetration at this juncture.

part of the on going cutbacks in RTÉ

JP Coakley continued: “This move to digital platforms is in line with other public service broadcasters such as the BBC in the UK and VGTRK in Russia, who have announced the closure of their longwave services. This service is a very expensive one for RTÉ and is unsustainable in terms of the organisations current financial position. RTÉ reported a break-even in 2013, thanks to rigorous cost-cutting and financial management, and there remains an emphasis on value-for-money across all services and technologies.”

marclt · 23-09-2014 7:02pm

This is pretty disappointing news. It also shows a lack of regard to Irish listeners in Britain who have valued the service since the shut down of 567MW.

If RTÉ is committed to providing a service to the Irish in Britain they should explore DAB carriage on the Digital1 multiplex.

Yes, of course it is available on Freesat and Sky but the ability of listeningon the move will be lost.

Where will the religious programmes now be broadcast - just on saorview?

Harry Palmr · 23-09-2014 7:08pm

That's a blow also where does it leave the split service on Sunday morning?

galtee boy · 23-09-2014 7:09pm

marclt wrote: »

This is pretty disappointing news. It also shows a lack of regard to Irish listeners in Britain who have valued the service since the shut down of 567MW.

If RTÉ is committed to providing a service to the Irish in Britain they should explore DAB carriage on the Digital1 multiplex.

Yes, of course it is available on Freesat and Sky but the ability of listeningon the move will be lost.

Where will the religious programmes now be broadcast - just on saorview?

Explore going on DAB in the UK ? You must be joking, they are not available on DAB in most parts of Ireland, except a few cities.

Apogee · 23-09-2014 9:19pm

This RTÉNL document puts the total charge for Radio One LW at €859,069 in 2011.

http://www.rtenl.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/RTE-NL-changes-13-July-2011.pdf

Does anyone have comparable costs for DAB?

The Cush · 23-09-2014 9:47pm

Apogee wrote: »

Does anyone have comparable costs for DAB?

I've never come across a breakdown of charges for DAB transmission and distribution.

Since the new tariff model was introduced you won't see a breakdown of charges like the one you linked to above

icdg · 23-09-2014 10:38pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

That's a blow also where does it leave the split service on Sunday morning?

That's the biggest question. The mainly older people who listen to the religious services are exactly the same people who are least likely to have internet access or DAB. Expect a big fight against this from hospitals in particular.

dxhound2005 · 23-09-2014 11:00pm

icdg wrote: »

That's the biggest question. The mainly older people who listen to the religious services are exactly the same people who are least likely to have internet access or DAB. Expect a big fight against this from hospitals in particular.

According to the person from RTE on the News at One it will only affect about 2,000 people. On the website it says 98% of listeners won't be affected. If the people who tune in for religious services on Sundays are savvy enough to find it while doing their other listening on FM they will probably figure out how to get it on Saorview on their TV.

http://static.rasset.ie/documents/radio1/rte-radio-1-staytuned.pdf

I'm not familiar with the setup in hospitals, fortunately. How would they be affected in particular?

endakenny · 24-09-2014 12:06am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Not good news for car radio buffs here in NI where RTE FM signal fades out and we rely on LW to get decent reception.

People in NI already have a regional public service radio station for which they pay the licence fee. It's called "BBC Radio Ulster".

endakenny · 24-09-2014 12:10am

marclt wrote: »

This is pretty disappointing news. It also shows a lack of regard to Irish listeners in Britain who have valued the service since the shut down of 567MW.

If RTÉ is committed to providing a service to the Irish in Britain they should explore DAB carriage on the Digital1 multiplex.

Yes, of course it is available on Freesat and Sky but the ability of listeningon the move will be lost.

Where will the religious programmes now be broadcast - just on saorview?

British radio listeners already have a world-class public service broadcaster - the BBC. The only thing that happens in Ireland that expatriates would be concerned about is the odd murder or fatal accident, which the relatives back home can tell them about on the phone. RTÉ should concentrate resources on covering Irish news and also international news from an Irish perspective.

24-09-2014 12:17am

Was listening to Radio 1 for the last half hour and about 3 or 4 people texted in to complain about the closure.

Digifriendly · 24-09-2014 8:12am

endakenny wrote: »

People in NI already have a regional public service radio station for which they pay the licence fee. It's called "BBC Radio Ulster".

This is irrelevant to the closure of 252LW. I guess many here in NI like me tune into RTE on their car radios and this makes it more difficult to receive it.

Sam Russell · 24-09-2014 12:35pm

Some time ago, I bought a second hand car in the UK, not from anyone Irish (AFAIK) and the radio was tuned to 252LW. So people do listen to it in the UK.

galtee boy · 24-09-2014 3:13pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

This is irrelevant to the closure of 252LW. I guess many here in NI like me tune into RTE on their car radios and this makes it more difficult to receive it.

Tunein App on your phone, Bluetooth it to your car radio and you have crystal clear reception. Bar you are driving in remote rural areas where broadband is poor, it works very well. I use it all the time here in ROI to listen to Five Live and Talksport, beats the hell out of crappy medium wave reception. I've added on a VPN and can get online access to all the sports commentaries, which are geo blocked outside UK.

Antenna · 24-09-2014 10:15pm

Are there any guarantees that the current FM coverage of RTE Radio 1 into Northern Ireland will not be degraded in the future? What protection does it have? A the moment the 87.5 to 88 area is completely disused within northern Ireland but if that changed in the future it could badly degrade coverage of RTE Radio 1 on 87.8 MHz to Belfast etc and listeners then lamenting that LW is not there as an alternative!

PukkaStukka · 24-09-2014 10:30pm

Apogee wrote: »

This RTÉNL document puts the total charge for Radio One LW at €859,069 in 2011.

It would be interesting to see what the current figures are, not from 3 years ago. Plus I'd like to see how the LW transmission costs sits as a proportion of RTENL's total transmission budget.
The decision is nothing more than a crude cost saving initiative. Could you imagine the outcry if the Beeb decided to pull the plug on Radio 4 LW198 from Droitwich? This is a decision made by a few who clearly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Fuzzy Clam · 25-09-2014 12:13am

PukkaStukka wrote: »

It would be interesting to see what the current figures are, not from 3 years ago. Plus I'd like to see how the LW transmission costs sits as a proportion of RTENL's total transmission budget.
The decision is nothing more than a crude cost saving initiative. Could you imagine the outcry if the Beeb decided to pull the plug on Radio 4 LW198 from Droitwich? This is a decision made by a few who clearly know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

As 252 has been running on reduced power for a while now, I would expect the ESB bill would not have increased.

Fuzzy Clam · 25-09-2014 12:16am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Some time ago, I bought a second hand car in the UK, not from anyone Irish (AFAIK) and the radio was tuned to 252LW. So people do listen to it in the UK.

Was it just a preset?
Both my car radios have factory presets for 252. Station names included, although in my case they read Atlantic, Shows how old my cars are:eek:

SPDUB · 25-09-2014 7:33am

They overrode the start of Morning Ireland to broadcast a closedown message ,

I presume they will do similar broadcasts during the day

phonypony · 25-09-2014 7:46am

Just another perspective, 252 KHz from the Clarkstown mast also provides a useful, unofficial navigation aid for light aircraft. I'd say there will be a few student pilots and instructors in the area sorry to see it go!

RED L4 0TH · 25-09-2014 5:38pm

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Could you imagine the outcry if the Beeb decided to pull the plug on Radio 4 LW198 from Droitwich?

Will go eventually.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/oct/09/bbc-radio4-long-wave-goodbye

Georgina Taylor · 25-09-2014 8:53pm

I am really disappointed that LW 252 is going to cease I live in the North East of England and spend a lot of time driving as part of my job. I listen to 252 every day to catch up on news from home. I will really miss this service

EndaOKane · 25-09-2014 10:58pm

This is beyond belief. The system has a new solid state Tx. Has been successfully tested delivering an FM like digital signal across the UK to Germany. We know that today it covers from the coast of Norway down as far as the Bay of Biscay. Just imagine how the long distance hauliers would miss the link with home across two channels.
Solid state AM transmitters today are very efficient as opposed to the old valve type. LW252 is about 70% efficient.
This is and attempt to "manage" listeners on the the failed DAB system while ignoring DRM now being launched across India and under test in Brazil. N.Ireland will loose out and this pull back of service is against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

PukkaStukka · 25-09-2014 11:06pm

EndaOKane wrote: »

This is beyond belief. The system has a new solid state Tx. Has been successfully tested delivering an FM like digital signal across the UK to Germany. We know that today it covers from the coast of Norway down as far as the Bay of Biscay. Just imagine how the long distance hauliers would miss the link with home across two channels.
Solid state AM transmitters today are very efficient as opposed to the old valve type. LW252 is about 70% efficient.
This is and attempt to "manage" listeners on the the failed DAB system while ignoring DRM now being launched across India and under test in Brazil. N.Ireland will loose out and this pull back of service is against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

When was the new solid state transmitter bought and commissioned?

25-09-2014 11:06pm

The big problem with DRM is lack of receivers.

I may have heard wrong, but in the announcement they tried to promote DAB and online as an alternative to those with little or no FM signal; are they mad? I'd be pretty sure that anyone who can't get FM will definitely not be able to get DAB either. These same areas probably don't have broadband either.

PukkaStukka wrote: »

When was the new solid state transmitter bought and commissioned?

Mid 2007. http://www.transradio.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99%3Airland2007&catid=1%3Aaktuelle-nachrichten&Itemid=79&lang=en

dxhound2005 · 25-09-2014 11:19pm

EndaOKane wrote: »

This is beyond belief. The system has a new solid state Tx. Has been successfully tested delivering an FM like digital signal across the UK to Germany. We know that today it covers from the coast of Norway down as far as the Bay of Biscay. Just imagine how the long distance hauliers would miss the link with home across two channels.
Solid state AM transmitters today are very efficient as opposed to the old valve type. LW252 is about 70% efficient.
This is and attempt to "manage" listeners on the the failed DAB system while ignoring DRM now being launched across India and under test in Brazil. N.Ireland will loose out and this pull back of service is against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

As far as I know the Good Friday Agreement covered TV services only, could be wrong. I doubt anyway whether it specified that either administration had to maintain a medium wave or long wave service. 252 is up against the 750/1500 KW transmitter in Algeria. If you listen to the receiver in Holland RTE is much stronger, with Algeria in the background but I think you exaggerate its coverage beyond that, certainly during the day.

http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/

EndaOKane · 26-09-2014 12:00am

I agree re. Good Friday Agreement - I mean that it contradicts the spirit of the Agreement and statements at the close of MW.

New TransRadio 300kW Transmitter installed spring 2007 (first outside of Germany)

Order details available on TransRadio site.

August 2007 Test of Digital (DRM) on LW 252kHz as received both in London and Muenster Germany - audio files :

Emigrant Advice Network have audio recordings of these tests under "radio"

Yes R.Algerie are installing a new DRM Transmitter like india with its 140+ installations some with powers of 1000kW meaning that finally affordable receivers will hit the market as promoted at Media Show Amsterdam recently.

Enda

Cork_chick_94 · 26-09-2014 9:12am

RTE are now pretending this was set up as a fill in service for FM black spots in ireland, when infact they were advertising it as a service for britain and beyond a few years ago.

Fuzzy Clam · 26-09-2014 9:44am

EndaOKane wrote: »

............... meaning that finally affordable receivers will hit the market as promoted at Media Show Amsterdam recently.

Enda

How many times have I heard that over the last 10+ years;)

Sam Russell · 26-09-2014 10:06am

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Was it just a preset?
Both my car radios have factory presets for 252. Station names included, although in my case they read Atlantic, Shows how old my cars are:eek:

Yes it was a preset, but it was the one in use.

Fred Swanson · 26-09-2014 6:21pm

This post has been deleted.

26-09-2014 6:29pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Not going to happen. The electric boards use the signal from 198 KHz to switch domestic electricity meters.

I'm sure they could still transmit the switching signals without having to transmit the audio though? Could probably turn down the TX power in that case too. Or transmit it from somewhere else.

Cork_chick_94 · 26-09-2014 7:37pm

I wonder might the transmitter end up in Africa or india ?

Fuzzy Clam · 26-09-2014 10:02pm

Cork_chick_94 wrote: »

I wonder might the transmitter end up in Africa or india ?

Well, rumour has it that there is a new client for 252 LW.

PukkaStukka · 26-09-2014 10:05pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Well, rumour has it that there is a new client for 252 LW.

Here or abroad?

Fuzzy Clam · 26-09-2014 10:19pm

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Here or abroad?

I dont know. I have an inkling that it may be a UK based operation who want to use the facility here to broadcast to the UK. Might be total nonsense. There is one name that comes to mind that may be involved but I dont want to say in case Im wrong.

Cork_chick_94 · 26-09-2014 10:32pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

I dont know. I have an inkling that it may be a UK based operation who want to use the facility here to broadcast to the UK. Might be total nonsense. There is one name that comes to mind that may be involved but I dont want to say in case Im wrong.

Wouldn't RTE have to be a shareholder too because it is an RTE licence ? Hard to see them investing in an new lw station in this day in age when the chances of it making money have got to be very very slim.

Oscarziggy · 26-09-2014 10:42pm

Wouldn't it be great if the station that started it all off all those years ago found her way back on the airwaves as well as on line

I'm talking about Radio Caroline of course.
Regards

Fuzzy Clam · 26-09-2014 10:56pm

Cork_chick_94 wrote: »

Wouldn't RTE have to be a shareholder too because it is an RTE licence ? Hard to see them investing in an new lw station in this day in age when the chances of it making money have got to be very very slim.

Not necessarily. If the frequency is handed back to the BAI, then any interested party here could apply for it. In theory anyway.
Or, RTE could retain it and simply rent it out. Or even 2RN.
I cant see the BAI or Comreg throwing up too many obsticles.

marno21 · 27-09-2014 1:17am

Karsini wrote: »

I'm sure they could still transmit the switching signals without having to transmit the audio though? Could probably turn down the TX power in that case too. Or transmit it from somewhere else.

If they are using it to TX time switching signals though they may as well use it for audio too, it's hardly going to cost anymore to provide R4 on it and would help share out the cost?

kazoo106 · 27-09-2014 11:03am

This decision is flawed, and flawed for the same reason as 567 should never have been switched off.
RTE claim that 252 costs in the region of €1m for approx 2% of the listeners. Now, I am unable to find up to date figures here, however I assume 2RM charge Today FM in the region of €1m transmission fees for the National FM Network - This means by default that R Na G and Lyric FM cost the same amount for their transmission.
A quick look at JNLR's yields that Lyric FM's total reach is 1.7% and as for R Na G well their figures are so low that they don't even bother paying JNLR. What is clear however is that Raidio Na Gaeltachta takes almost €10.7 million euro out of the licence fee pot every year - Thats nearly 11 times the cost of a pan national AM frequency. Are there any figures to suggest that advertising on Lyric covers the station's costs.
It will be a sad day for Irish radio when this transmitter is turned off

Cork_chick_94 · 27-09-2014 4:09pm

I am a little surprised that there seems to be very little talk about this lw closedown outside internet forums, I was expecting some FF Tds would come out calling it another attack on rural ireland or some such rubbish.

Antenna · 27-09-2014 6:00pm

a recording of one of the closedown announcements inserted on 252kHz, 1:50 into this :

http://www.dxarchive.com/mw/audio/2014_09_24_0600_gmt_rte_253_local_closedown_ann.mp3

Notice that listeners in both ROI and Northern Ireland are advised to retune to FM band. For those without FM reception, its available on 'All Digital Platforms' including DAB digital Radio, Digital TV, - as well as RTE radio player.

Where is RTE radio available on DAB but not FM ??

The only free, non-internet, digital platform within NI carrying it is Freesat/FTA satellite. It is not available on Freeview or DAB in NI.

BTW notice one of the ads leading up to the announcement was for Toyota - "the best built cars in the world". Maybe so, but they too have excluded LW coverage on cars sold in this country in recent years !

coylemj · 27-09-2014 7:05pm

marno21 wrote: »

If they are using it to TX time switching signals though they may as well use it for audio too, it's hardly going to cost anymore to provide R4 on it and would help share out the cost?

The UK National Physical Laboratory shortwave time signal (www.npl.co.uk/time) was contracted out a few years ago and is now broadcast from Cumbria instead of Rugby. If a decision was made to shut down the BBC R4 LW service from Droitwich, I'm sure someone could bid to broadcast the LW time signal used by the electricity meters to switch to nightsaver rates and back again.

Cork_chick_94 · 28-09-2014 6:23pm

Does anybody have an idea what the annual cost of keeping the site will be after the transmitter is turned off ?

ei9go · 29-09-2014 9:01am

There were discussions on the broadcasting bill 2008 where there was considerable support for the service and even severe criticism of RTE for not running the 252 transmitter at full power from amongst others, Sen. David Norris.

Link: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2008/06/18/00009.asp

I have written to all the party leaders to ask that this decision be reversed and I suggest that the posters here do similar and also maybe the senators who have shown an interest in this area.

The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

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