Group of Irish J1 Students trash San Fran rental house, then leave the country

Egginacup · 24-09-2014 02:31PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I don't think expulsion from college is the way to go but the argument in favour of it would be that they were on a J1. Can people get J1's if not in college? Therefore the college or a higher educational authority (whatever it is called these days) could in theory use that as a reason to expel them

Peist2007....that's a bit of a stretch. That you are on a J1 visa automatically links your actions to your college is a bit big-brotherish, not to mention the precedent it sets. If one goes down that road one could argue that while the student is a representative of the college whilst on a J1 visa, the college in return is responsible for the student.

If I broke my leg while on a J1 then by your logic I could sue the sh!t out of TCD since it technically happened "on their watch".

h2005 · 24-09-2014 02:32PM

kneemos wrote: »

Trying to reason or present facts around here appears to be rather futile I'm afraid.

You're yet to produce the photos you've seen which prove their innocence.

Pro Hoc Vice · 24-09-2014 02:35PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Peist2007....that's a bit of a stretch. That you are on a J1 visa automatically links your actions to your college is a bit big-brotherish, not to mention the precedent it sets. If one goes down that road one could argue that while the student is a representative of the college whilst on a J1 visa, the college in return is responsible for the student.

If I broke my leg while on a J1 then by your logic I could sue the sh!t out of TCD since it technically happened "on their watch".

Did you not read the rules I posted for example of TCD. You would not be able to sue TCD as they can not be held to be negligent in your breaking of your leg.

Electric Sheep · 24-09-2014 02:56PM

The number of people defending these gobsh!tes says a lot about the irish mindset, and it's not flattering.

Brendan Flowers · 24-09-2014 03:24PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

The number of people defending these gobsh!tes says a lot about the irish mindset, and it's not flattering.

Even less flattering are the people who are sending personal information of those accused via PM to others. Also folks that are actively seeking out the names of family members, employers, colleges, etc. of those living in the house.

The authorities are acting on this case. As I said already no need for keyboard warriors.

Sand · 24-09-2014 07:04PM

Egginacup wrote: »

1. They are scumbags (and well-off scumbags according to you) who did it deliberately for a laugh and then absconded back to their daddies in Ireland.

2. They lost control of a party, gate crashers wrecked the place and the Irish guys panicked and fled after the damage was done.

In the case of 1. They should have to book thrown at them, although I don't know what the "book" constitutes in this case.

In the case of 2. I would be more lenient but would still expect them to be punished somehow.

In both cases they should make good the damage.

#2 seems like a weak excuse. In the case of #2, when the party was "getting out of control" why didn't they call the cops? Seems like at least one of them already had met the US police so they should have known the number.

I find the varying excuses (first sub-letters, now strangers at a party...) really weak. They filmed themselves carrying out an ice bucket challenge inside the house, or are they claiming that was someone else as well now?

Macavity. · 24-09-2014 07:11PM

I honestly can't fathom how this story has gotten so much media attention. It happens all the time - not newsworthy.

rawn · 24-09-2014 08:06PM

Macavity. wrote: »

I honestly can't fathom how this story has gotten so much media attention. It happens all the time - not newsworthy.

A lot of the things that happen in the news happen a lot.

Electric Sheep · 24-09-2014 08:32PM

Macavity. wrote: »

I honestly can't fathom how this story has gotten so much media attention. It happens all the time - not newsworthy.

So you think that frequency negates the seriousness of the action?

Macavity. · 24-09-2014 09:09PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

So you think that frequency negates the seriousness of the action?

It was a ****ty thing to do, but if every incident similar to this got the same media attention there would be no time for any other sort of news. On a world scale it is unconcerning.

Wompa1 · 24-09-2014 09:12PM

Macavity. wrote: »

It was a ****ty thing to do, but if every incident similar to this got the same media attention there would be no time for any other sort of news. On a world scale it is unconcerning.

In the Irish news? Because it was on the local CBS affiliate in San Francisco..they always have local stories...

In regards to the Irish news, it's got us all talking....

Electric Sheep · 24-09-2014 09:13PM

Macavity. wrote: »

It was a ****ty thing to do, but if every incident similar to this got the same media attention there would be no time for any other sort of news. On a world scale it is unconcerning.

If every incident similar to this got the same media attention the frequency would drop sharply with great speed. People behave like that when they think they will get away with it through anonymity.

fly_agaric · 24-09-2014 10:03PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

The number of people defending these gobsh!tes says a lot about the irish mindset, and it's not flattering.

The logic goes a bit like this:

getting absolutely hammered = great fun (as everyone knows!)

getting hammered -> wrecking house

so wrecking house = great fun (in a way; excusable anyway. you can argue it down to wrecking house = high jinx gone "too far"!)

So IMO it is bound up with attitudes to drinking to excess really (too many Irish people see absolutely nothing wrong with it).

The_Kew_Tour · 24-09-2014 10:22PM

Whoever did it should be named and shamed once we have right people.

Shakespeare's Sister · 24-09-2014 10:26PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

So you think that frequency negates the seriousness of the action?

I agree it's weird that it's made the news, yet numerous other such incidents haven't. That doesn't mean I don't think it's appalling behaviour or that I don't think the comments about it not being that bad are woefully disingenuous.

prizefighter · 24-09-2014 10:39PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I agree it's weird that it's made the news, yet numerous other such incidents haven't. That doesn't mean I don't think it's appalling behaviour or that I don't think the comments about it not being that bad are woefully disingenuous.

It has been posted in this thread already that similar incidents in '05 and '10 made local news in the states and then by virtue of the fact it relates to Irish youth and international reputation it became news in Ireland. I don't understand why anyone is surprised this incident became news here or that it has caused such a storm. Prevalence of a crime shouldn't negate its status as news. In India gangrape is common compared to Ireland yet the news channels very rarely reported on it, since the Delhi bus incident this heinous crime is regularly reported, but by the logic of some posters here it isn't news worthy because of the regularity of these events....

Amirani · 25-09-2014 12:38AM

It seems the person being named everywhere wasn't actually part of the group who had the lease on the apartment.

0byme75341jo28 · 25-09-2014 12:41AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It seems the person being named everywhere wasn't actually part of the group who had the lease on the apartment.

Yay, witchunt!

Egginacup · 25-09-2014 01:13AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Did you not read the rules I posted for example of TCD. You would not be able to sue TCD as they can not be held to be negligent in your breaking of your leg.

I don't understand. Why would a college have the right, nay control, over someone without a reciprocal dependency?

Pro Hoc Vice · 25-09-2014 02:00AM

Egginacup wrote: »

I don't understand. Why would a college have the right, nay control, over someone without a reciprocal dependency?

You agree to the rules when you go. The university must protect what it stands for and any student who damages the institutions reputation well is in trouble. When you join the club you agree to the rules its that simple.

If you think there is no reciprocal dependency as you put it then I think you are wrong. The college teaches you gives you a quilification that is of advantage to you, try and get on with a degree from a college with no reputation.

kneemos · 25-09-2014 02:15AM

Egginacup wrote: »

I don't understand. Why would a college have the right, nay control, over someone without a reciprocal dependency?

One for the hounds in the Legal Forum.
Maybe it's one of those ancient laws that nobody has been bothered to change.

Paulownia · 25-09-2014 10:42AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It seems the person being named everywhere wasn't actually part of the group who had the lease on the apartment.

I bet he wishes he had stayed home this summer rather than heading off in search of adventures. we are all in theory responsible for our actions although the fallout from the celtic tiger demise may show otherwise when you see all the cowboys walking free but he will be, and his friends will be wiser and more responsible as a result of this.

Neyite · 25-09-2014 01:53PM

I think that a lot of minor convictions can result in having a visa application denied for life.

Look at Nigella Lawson, she admitted she dabbled in cocaine use and her proposed US cookery tour or show was called off because she was denied her entry visa. And she was never arrested, charged or convicted, nor was the use of cocaine even in the US.

I know another lad who wrote on his visa that he had no criminal convictions, but he did get a caution at 19 for possession which he omitted. 11 years later, having paid for a second US holiday was denied his visa - for lying on his first visa.

This could come back to haunt them for decades.

Its not minor damage. Minor damage in a rental property is a stained matteress, a chipped or cracked floor tile and scuff marks on paint. Not holes in the walls, entire staircases rendered unsafe, splintered doors and door frames, damaged carpets and flooring. Thats distruction of property.

stevedublin · 25-09-2014 02:58PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

It seems the person being named everywhere wasn't actually part of the group who had the lease on the apartment.

he may have stayed there or wrecked the place though

Peist2007 · 25-09-2014 05:00PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Peist2007....that's a bit of a stretch. That you are on a J1 visa automatically links your actions to your college is a bit big-brotherish, not to mention the precedent it sets. If one goes down that road one could argue that while the student is a representative of the college whilst on a J1 visa, the college in return is responsible for the student.

If I broke my leg while on a J1 then by your logic I could sue the sh!t out of TCD since it technically happened "on their watch".

It is not a stretch to think that college students availing of an opportunity available only to college students (J1) would be dealt with by their colleges.

If you broke your leg on a J1 in San Diego and tried to sue Trinity College then you'd have to show they were negligent same as any other case. You wouldnt win.

Egginacup · 25-09-2014 06:18PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Did you not read the rules I posted for example of TCD. You would not be able to sue TCD as they can not be held to be negligent in your breaking of your leg.

Exactly. Did YOU not read my post?

Pro Hoc Vice · 25-09-2014 06:25PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Exactly. Did YOU not read my post?

Yes, and it's clear as a member of the college the member consents to the rules and any breach of those rules can lead to sanction, a conviction can lead to sanction. So a current student doing something outside college can under the rules they have agreed to be brought before the college for punishment. There of course could be arguments of double jeapordy etc. But as a fact a student may be sanctioned for any breach of the rules.

In the case of TCD the rules say they apply to any student who breaches or attempts to breach criminal law and or whose actions bring the college in to disrepute. If and I repeat any of these allegations are proven it may lead to what every institution taking action.

SpaceTime · 26-09-2014 07:43AM

The universities don't organise or sponsor the J1 trips at all. Their only involvement is to say that you're a university student by stamping a form. By being in 3rd level of any type you're eligible for the visa.

The entire thing is arranged by one of the travel agencies who act as kind of facilitator/sponsor of the programme.

The J1 is coming in for a lot of criticism though because it's supposedly a US diplomatic tool designed to foster genuine cultural exchange.
In a lot of instances it's being used as a source of cheap seasonal labour by certain employers.

Irish students are generally using it more as intended - basically a working holiday with an opportunity to explore the US.

What I wouldn't like to see is a knee jerk reaction that links Irish students more tightly to a single employer during the J1 as that's what's causing abuses for nationals of other countries who seem to be much more restricted by sponsorship arrangements.

Wompa1 · 26-09-2014 04:03PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

The J1 is coming in for a lot of criticism though because it's supposedly a US diplomatic tool designed to foster genuine cultural exchange.
In a lot of instances it's being used as a source of cheap seasonal labour by certain employers.

In fairness, why should the Irish students be treated any better by employers than the Americans. If you're working in a hotel, restaurant, moving company, shop...you get paid jack ****e..it's not right but that's how it is across the board. There's an attitude that those jobs are for teenagers, don't require skill and are not deserving of a decent wage...it's pretty terrible but I'd imagine the J1 kids know this before coming over.

In fact, I'd imagine if you're going on a J1, you go knowing you've got a support system in place. No young lad or lady who's parents are completely broke, or don't have family over there are going to go on a J1

Group of Irish J1 Students trash San Fran rental house, then leave the country

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