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Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

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Comments

  • #3842
    Kharrell
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 359 ✭✭Kharrell


    Watched the game in the pub with my Liverpool supporting mate for the first time this season, and his frustration with Gerrard in particular was something else, in his own non-abusive manner. He was adamant that Rodgers needed to drop him as soon as the likes of Allen are back, but I just cannot see Rodgers making that type of call. Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but as I tried to explain to him, it's one thing if the coach is someone of Wenger, Van Gaal or Mourinho's standing, but when you're still a somewhat new-ish manager, it's more difficult to make that call. Going by what I saw in the pub, the majority of Liverpool fans were hurling abuse at Mignolet, Sakho, Skrtel, Lovern, Balotelli, Borini and Lucas, but Gerrard escaped any criticism which I found it astonishing. During the game, it was amazing how many times as the deepest lying midfielder, he was nowhere to been seen. The Sahko header for the third goal if I recall correctly springs to mind. I always believed that you can't judge football clearly with sentiment. er is finished, they're finished and you move on. Scholes is my favourite United player, but I knew his time was up many years ago when the time came to him being a regular starter. Liverpool fans that I've come across for the most part refuse to see that for whatever reason. Today he certainly didn't contribute towards anything positve.

    To me anyway, it seems he doesn't grasp the concept of having to sit out games in any fashion outside of being injured, and I don't mean say for example, the early rounds of FA and League Cup where the proper starting eleven for most top sides is rested. While that is an admirable trait in some way, for the sake of the team as a whole, it's a detriment and one the likes of my team as well as the others teams outside of Chelsea and Manchester City will take great delight in seeing. From a Man Utd point of view, I really hope Rodgers persists with Gerrard. It was one thing perhaps man-marking Gerrard 5-10 years ago, but now it's so much easier nowadays, Liverpool in the last two league games are effectively down to ten men.


  • #3843
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If the team were playing great and flourishing but carrying Gerrard there might be a bit of truth

    The PL isn't the Scottish PL you know? Teams can't afford to carry anyone.

    It's also not realistic to compare Giggs at 34/35 and Stevie as he is now for the following reasons:-

    1. Giggs was a serious athlete and always had ton's of pace. He was a very rare specimen. Stevie isn't like that and and never has been.

    2. The championship winning and CL challenging team Giggs played in aged 34 was miles better than the current LFC team.


  • #3844
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    BenThere wrote: »
    The PL isn't the Scottish PL you know? Teams can't afford to carry anyone.
    .

    I never said it was or they could :confused:

    I said that the talk of him being finished might hold some weight if that's what was happening.

    As it is its whole team playing poorly rather than Gerrard playing poorly because hes 34.


    Incidentally why do people think BR is so great in general yet they are right about Gerrard and BR just has a huge blind spot?


  • #3845
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,925 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    daithijjj wrote: »
    ..

    And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now. .....

    Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?


  • #3846
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    More fun formations for 2 and 3 up top

    viitmd.jpgmmrfgp.jpg


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  • #3847
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Augeo wrote: »
    Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?

    I cant see the defence suddenly shoring itself up with more space in front of it.


  • #3848
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,925 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I haven't seen Gerrard do enough/much defensively to feel worried about the back 4 without someone else sitting in a DM/sweeper role tbh.


  • #3849
    daithijjj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    Augeo wrote: »
    Do we need to play someone "there" in all games?

    No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best.

    Personally, if money was the sticking point, i thought we could have kept Ibe, not signed Markovic and bought a starting DM instead. Allen and Lucas cant play there, too weak, its a half hearted attempt at doing the importance of the position justice imo. Allen can do a different job though, Lucas is ineffective in everything he does these days.


  • #3850
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Augeo wrote: »
    I haven't seen Gerrard do enough/much defensively to feel worried about the back 4 without someone else sitting in a DM/sweeper role tbh.

    Theres been plenty to worry about WITH someone there. The defence was a shambles all last season and its continued into this, only thing is missing is the goals scored.


  • #3851
    Drexel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭Drexel


    daithijjj wrote: »
    If Gerrard is the first name on your lips for that shambles today you need to have words with yourselves.

    Same tired arguments trotted out for around 3 years.

    And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now.

    Sick reading posts about him being not as effective as he used to be. Talk about stating the bleedin obvious, he has moved 40 yards back towards our goal. I thought he was great v City myself.

    We have arguably 4 players to play there, Gerrard, plus 2 injured plus the worst player in the squad imo, who started today. Henderson should never ever be used there, he is simply wasted doing anything other than pressing high. Only way i would remotely entertain Henderson there is if there was a plague of biblical proportions with injuries.

    If you are expecting 33/34/35 year olds to do the donkey work then you dont know football tbh, especially ones who are alien to that concept for the majority of their careers, you need players beside those players to do it for them. To use as an example, 2 seasons ago City sold De Jong, Yaya had an indifferent season through having the lack of coverage behind, the like we need for Gerrard. City bought a DM the next season, Yaya flourished, and then bought another one this summer. Lampard has had Ramires, Matic etc.

    LFC have done nothing for this position, we have bought Can, and he is the only one since we lost Mascherano that justifies what i would call a 'strong' def mid to 'horse' the midfield and carry the ball.

    It's been glaring in this team. Remove what we did in the attacking half last year and its even more glaring. This deficiency will come to pass this season and the only way it changes is if its addressed in January.

    But it probably wont because it seems out of the comfort zone of certain managers to obtain these types of players. I'd include Wenger in that and seemingly Rodgers.

    A ready replacement for Lucas would be Schneiderlin for example. He would be a good signing for this team.

    As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.

    Is there a lack of quality player available to do that type of job? Arsenal have had similar problems since last season and no body was brought in either.


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  • #3852
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    daithijjj wrote: »
    No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best.

    Personally, if money was the sticking point, i thought we could have kept Ibe, not signed Markovic and bought a starting DM instead. Allen and Lucas cant play there, too weak, its a half hearted attempt at doing the importance of the position justice imo. Allen can do a different job though, Lucas is ineffective in everything he does these days.

    The fact that Rodgers has made sure not to spend any big money there is surely telling. Fernando could have been bought before City made their interest known, Schneiderlin could have been considered (though buying four Soton players would have been taking the pish), someone like Blaise Matuidi or at the cheap end of the scale Gary Medel.

    Its a blind spot and its not likely to change now.


  • #3853
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,925 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    daithijjj wrote: »
    No, but it would be preferable to have the option should we need to set up that way. You cant just stick any midfielder in and hope for the best......

    Indeed, I think using Gerrard in that position when needed would work but not with Lucas in the team.

    No need at all for that position to be mandatory and Rodgers is only sticking with it to utilise Gerrard.


  • #3854
    MD1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭MD1990


    No one is saying Gerrard is the only problem. But he was terrible today & at 34 needs to rotated.

    Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

    With Sterling & Ibe. Markovic is a good talent but not what was required for the team this season.


  • #3855
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    daithijjj wrote: »
    If Gerrard is the first name on your lips for that shambles today you need to have words with yourselves.

    Same tired arguments trotted out for around 3 years.

    And the weird thing is, we still dont have a player or 2 better than him to play there right now.
    Yes we do, Can or Allen would give better defensive protection than Stevie is capable of any more.
    daithijjj wrote: »
    If you are expecting 33/34/35 year olds to do the donkey work then you dont know football tbh, especially ones who are alien to that concept for the majority of their careers
    Agreed. so what exactly is he supposed to do in his new position? Stand around saying "I'm not supposed to be here and I can't play this position because I'm not suited to it and I'm too old to adapt? Your argument is self defeating. Either a 34/35 year old can do the role or he can't. Which is it?
    daithijjj wrote: »
    you need players beside those players to do it for them.
    So you're advocating having a player on the pitch who can't do his job and his duties should be outsourced to his colleagues who in addition to their own jobs have to carry him?
    daithijjj wrote: »
    2 seasons ago City sold De Jong, Yaya had an indifferent season through having the lack of coverage behind, the like we need for Gerrard. City bought a DM the next season, Yaya flourished, and then bought another one this summer. Lampard has had Ramires, Matic etc
    Ah, I gotcha now. You're advocating moving him back up the pitch where his pace and movement will be devastating to..........LFC!! You're in a minority of one if you think Stevie can play a central midfield role in front of a DM any more.
    daithijjj wrote: »
    LFC have done nothing for this position, we have bought Can, and he is the only one since we lost Mascherano that justifies what i would call a 'strong' def mid to 'horse' the midfield and carry the ball.

    It's been glaring in this team.
    Yes, especially with Stevie playing that role.
    daithijjj wrote: »
    This deficiency will come to pass this season and the only way it changes is if its addressed in January.
    I agree with you but until then it should be Allen and Can who play the DM role.
    daithijjj wrote: »
    But it probably wont because it seems out of the comfort zone of certain managers to obtain these types of players. I'd include Wenger in that and seemingly Rodgers.

    A ready replacement for Lucas would be Schneiderlin for example. He would be a good signing for this team.
    Totally agree, it wouldn't surprise me if we go for him in January. DM doesn't make the best use of Allens skills whilst Can is still a bit too young to be the main DM.
    daithijjj wrote: »
    As much as it pains me to say it, Mourinho recently replied to a question about his squad.....to paraphrase, 'we assessed what we needed, identified the players, and bought them'. Now thats easy financially for them but the thing, is, as much as i like the look of Markovic, there was no necessity for that signing. He may turn out to be great in the future but it told me the club saw no issues in defensive midfield and that is the blind spot for us imo. Has been for years. Gerrard was pencilled in to move back but the Xabi role needed Mascherano beside him.
    Agreed up to the last bit. If we're going to play a diamond you can't have someone sitting beside Stevie in front of the back four.

    Bottom line is Stevie is 34, he isn't a DM and there isn't any other spot in the team for him. Last year (when he was 33 with fewer games and no World Cup messing with pre season) he moved to a new position and it took time for teams to figure out how to neutralise him but they all know how to do it now and it's not even that difficult - man mark him when our keeper/defence have the ball and the positive technical attributes he brings to the game with his incisive passing are wiped out.

    He's a legend but he's a 34 year old legend playing a role he isn't suited to or effective in. Why do we think we can get away with playing a 34 year old out of position as a DM when not a single top 6 club have a 34 year old starting midfielder?


  • #3856
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    MD1990 wrote: »
    Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

    No other player, in any PL team, with those stats would start the next game. no chance.


  • #3857
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    MD1990 wrote: »
    No one is saying Gerrard is the only problem. But he was terrible today & at 34 needs to rotated.

    Steven Gerrard game in numbers: 82% pass accuracy 0 through balls 0 shots 0/5 crosses completed 0 tackles won

    With Sterling & Ibe. Markovic is a good talent but not what was required for the team this season.
    BenThere wrote: »
    No other player, in any PL team, with those stats would start the next game. no chance.

    as mentioned here three and a half hours ago :)

    Downing waltzed past him, that's all one needs to know really.


  • #3858
    MD1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,740 ✭✭✭✭MD1990


    Regarding the Everton match. Coutinho for me should start. Playing poor but so are plenty of players. He was actually our only threat in the 2nd half against Aston Villa.


  • #3859
    darced
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3860
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    as mentioned here three and a half hours ago :)

    Downing waltzed past him, that's all one needs to know really.

    Feck, there's an hour of my life I'll never get back!!


  • #3861
    daithijjj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭daithijjj


    BenThere wrote: »
    Yes we do, Can or Allen would give better defensive protection than Stevie is capable of any more.

    Agreed. so what exactly is he supposed to do in his new position? Stand around saying "I'm not supposed to be here and I can't play this position because I'm not suited to it and I'm too old to adapt? Your argument is self defeating. Either a 34/35 year old can do the role or he can't. Which is it?

    So you're advocating having a player on the pitch who can't do his job and his duties should be outsourced to his colleagues who in addition to their own jobs have to carry him?

    Ah, I gotcha now. You're advocating moving him back up the pitch where his pace and movement will be devastating to..........LFC!! You're in a minority of one if you think Stevie can play a central midfield role in front of a DM any more.

    Yes, especially with Stevie playing that role.

    I agree with you but until then it should be Allen and Can who play the DM role.

    Totally agree, it wouldn't surprise me if we go for him in January. DM doesn't make the best use of Allens skills whilst Can is still a bit too young to be the main DM.

    Agreed up to the last bit. If we're going to play a diamond you can't have someone sitting beside Stevie in front of the back four.

    Bottom line is Stevie is 34, he isn't a DM and there isn't any other spot in the team for him. Last year (when he was 33 with fewer games and no World Cup messing with pre season) he moved to a new position and it took time for teams to figure out how to neutralise him but they all know how to do it now and it's not even that difficult - man mark him when our keeper/defence have the ball and the positive technical attributes he brings to the game with his incisive passing are wiped out.

    He's a legend but he's a 34 year old legend playing a role he isn't suited to or effective in. Why do we think we can get away with a 34 year old DM when not a single top 6 club have a 34 year old starting midfielder?

    Gerrard isnt there to do the donkey work, if he is deployed in that fashion then he might as well be put out to pasture right now, or indeed last summer.

    It makes zero sense that Gerrard would be a defensive cog, he was never any use at it when in his prime so why expect it now?.

    You know what the common denominator is though with both our stances?.

    The manager, just for different reasons.


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  • #3862
    delw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭delw


    Not much being mentioned on our failure to defend a set piece with in the first minute or two which was shocking.(only read last 5/6 pages so may of been mentioned) Beginning to wonder do we do defensive drills in training.Who gets the blame for that goal because we were chasing our tails from then


  • #3863
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    So what exactly is his place/position? Is he supposed to be the best passing DM in the league? If so he'll always be the best long range passer in the PL, even if he keeps playing until he's 40 but the benefit of his passing is unfortunately outweighed by his lack of effectiveness as a DM and costing us more goals than he's helping create.

    A DM has to first and foremost be a defender breaking up play and being a general nuisance but Stevie has never been that and he's not going to start being it aged 34.


  • #3864
    ~Rebel~
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,101 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    If Sturridge is still out next week, I think i'd like us to try to bring in as many of last years players as possible, try to get more of a footing--
    Sterling---Balotelli
    Coutinho
    Lallana
    Henderson
    Gerrard

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  • #3865
    chicorytip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Agent Coulson wrote: »
    The one thing I have learned from this thread is all the so called bad players signed were the transfer committees fault and all the players that work out were Brendan Rodgers choices.

    What transfer committee? There is a network of scouts who report to the manager who ,in turn, makes the ultimate decisions.


  • #3866
    mosstin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,407 ✭✭✭mosstin


    darced wrote: »
    I cant believe people want Gerrard replaced with the likes of Can who has mostly looked a donkey from his cameos so far and Allen who has hardly been inspiring either.

    We are in the same situation with Gerrard another year older and still no proper replacement that looks like they should keep him out of the side.

    Im all for replacing Gerrard but they have to be good enough to take his place and I dont see anyone up to it at the minute,we have no better option so we need to make sure Gerrard has the right players with him when he plays,not Lucas.

    Balottelli impressed me today with lots of his play today,great hold up,nice touch and some cute passing.

    "has looked a donkey from his CAMEOS"

    This place this evening has been quite something.


  • #3867
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    LOAN WATCH

    Texieria - 63 mins for Brighton & HA in 0-0 home draw against Blackpool
    Wisdom - played full game in 0-1 away win against Spurs
    Alberto - Played 67 mins and got an assist for Malaga in 2-2 away draw with Espanyol
    Ibe - played last 40 mins and scored his first goal for Derby.
    Origi - Played last half hour in 0-0 home draw
    Smith - Played 90 mins as left wing back in 5-2 home win for Swindon Town got two assists for third and fifth goals
    Ilori - Unused sub for Bordeaux
    Ossiadi - Unused sub for Stoke
    Coates - no game for Sunderland


  • #3868
    darced
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3869
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    daithijjj wrote: »
    Gerrard isnt there to do the donkey work, if he is deployed in that fashion then he might as well be put out to pasture right now, or indeed last summer.

    It makes zero sense that Gerrard would be a defensive cog, he was never any use at it when in his prime so why expect it now?.
    Exactly, so why is he being asked to play that position? Is it because BR feels obliged to find a spot for him? If so the pressure will build to a point where BR has to make a choice, drop Stevie or face the sack and the reality, if you work the logic through, is that whoever comes in will immediately use his honeymoon period to drop Stevie just as LVG used his honeymoon period to clear out Evra, Rio etc? (I'm NOT saying Era and Rio are as good or as important to their club as Stevie is to LFC!!!)
    daithijjj wrote: »
    You know what the common denominator is though with both our stances?.

    The manager, just for different reasons.

    Well I think it's time to tailor Stevies role to CL games and a limited number of PL home games. What decision do you think BR needs to make?


  • #3870
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    Teams have figured us out. Just like Southampton were first to do at anfield last year. Press us high up the pitch and we're f*cked.
    I think all our problems both defensively (obviously) and offensively are coming from our centre backs. They all seem unwillingly, or unable, to bring the ball out of defence themselves. Everything goes either through Gerrard who's got someone on him or is passed into our congested midfield. They need to step up into midfield to create space for others. Been crying out for them to do it since the season started but it doesn't look like happening. Also I wish we could switch play to our full balks without having to take five passes to do it.


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  • #3871
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Nerdlingr wrote: »
    I think all our problems both defensively (obviously) and offensively are coming from our centre backs. They all seem unwillingly, or unable, to bring the ball out of defence themselves.
    Because they have no confidence in Ming. They are afraid to step forward.


This discussion has been closed.
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