New British Road Safety Vid (Distressing Scenes)

Alkers · 06-09-2014 11:58AM

Rabbo wrote: »

It kinda is. Its not good enough to just tell people to be careful or drive slower. It is no harm for people to be judgemental of others driving and to learn from others mistakes.

In my mind the biker was primarily at fault, he was travelling way too fast to allow for the unexpected. A small error by another roaduser then resulted in a fatal crash.

Anyone on the road will see drivers and road users doing incredibly stupid things on a daily basis. People need to adjust their driving with the expectation that the roadusers around you will inevitably do something stupid. Always expect the unexpected.

A small error? That's about the worst error you can make in driving bar going the wrong way down a motorway!!

Karl Stein · 06-09-2014 12:09PM

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

The car driver obviously did not look twice.

Check that it's safe to go and then check again.

Say Your Number · 06-09-2014 12:11PM

Karl Stein wrote: »

Check that it's safe to go and then check again.

I remember my driving instructor drilling that message into my head.

Jester252 · 06-09-2014 12:29PM

davemc180 wrote: »

as said above

car driver took a glance expecting a car and turned..

bad form and in real life and lack of driving skill

this happens daily an 90% of the time the blame goes to the biker..

BAD BAD FORM..

the amount of post who say he was speeding which he was but not at crazy speed in fairness hes not flying!!!

is unreal.. as said above I drive bikes daily and the amount of speeding wildly over taking cars I see on the roads of Ireland is insane..

but a biker is killed and its **** THAT BIKER FOR SPEEDING is the general reply!!

100 mph is crazy speed. Given that the speed limit for the road is 60mph at max and the maximum legal speed in the UK is 70mph. Travelling at 100 mph is reckless and crazy.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 12:55PM

I'm a biker, a car driver and cyclist ~ anyone here who tries to lay any blame on the car driver has no appreciation just how much ground a vehicle traveling at 100mph covers a literal blink of an eye.

IMO the driver of the car was almost entirely blameless.

I've seen the video a number of times, and I'm no slow coach on my bike ~ but 97mph on that road with junctions left and right, f*ck you're riding on a prayer!.

Around the city and on national roads like that I truely don't ride particularly fast ~ I'm older and wiser than years ago, but I still give the bike socks on the motorways and would regularly ride twice the speed limit.

Has the video slowed me down since viewing it, not really since I don't ride like that guy on similar roads but its made me question the sanity of someone who does (more than I used to)..

Wibbs · 06-09-2014 01:09PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I'm a biker, a car driver and cyclist ~ anyone here who tries to lay any blame on the car driver has no appreciation just how much ground a vehicle traveling at 100mph covers a literal blink of an eye.

IMO the driver of the car was almost entirely blameless.

Apparently in the court case which found him guilty the prosecution estimated he would have been able to see the biker for seven seconds on that road. I call shenanigans on that IMHO and I reckon the poor bastard was so shook over the whole thing that he just went along with it. I reckon an expert witness in vision and the judgement of speed in approaching moving objects would have torn that angle a new one. A bike is a much smaller visual target to acquire than a car. On approach gauging the closing speed would be significantly harder for an observer. In perfect conditions if an observer is expecting such a small high speed target approaching he might see the bike at that distance, but would still likely struggle to work out the closing speed. On a busy road at a junction with multiple targets, one of which was the car being overtaken by the bike, that window to see, judge and then react would be significantly narrowed. Clearly it was, or this incident would never have happened.

I still lay some blame at the driver of the car. He should have spotted the bike, but I'm equally unsurprised that he didn't and of all the factors in this the excessive and utterly daft speed the biker was doing is 90% of this tragedy IMHO.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 01:17PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently in the court case which found him guilty the prosecution estimated he would have been able to see the biker for seven seconds on that road. I call shenanigans on that IMHO and I reckon the poor bastard was so shook over the whole thing that he just went along with it. I reckon an expert witness in vision and the judgement of speed in approaching moving objects would have torn that angle a new one. A bike is a much smaller visual target to acquire than a car. On approach gauging the closing speed would be significantly harder for an observer. In perfect conditions if an observer is expecting such a small high speed target approaching he might see the bike at that distance, but would still likely struggle to work out the closing speed. On a busy road at a junction with multiple targets, one of which was the car being overtaken by the bike, that window to see, judge and then react would be significantly narrowed. Clearly it was, or this incident would never have happened.

I still lay some blame at the driver of the car. He should have spotted the bike, but I'm equally unsurprised that he didn't and of all the factors in this the excessive and utterly daft speed the biker was doing is 90% of this tragedy IMHO.

Yes he (maybe) should have spotted the bike but then found it hard to appreciate its speed.

Another thing which is difficult with bikes running day time lighting is the driver doesn't have whats called a diminishing background, we're tiny and only appear to drivers as close when its too late.

Tbh I'd find it hard to believe the driver could have seen the rider traveling at that speed for seven seconds.

Frigga_92 · 06-09-2014 01:22PM

I feel it's important to once again point out that the driver of the car admitted to police that he did not look nor see the bike. It wasn't a case, by his own admission, that he looked and thought he had enough time to make the turn, it was the case that he did not look nor see the bike nor the car travelling behind the bike.

Micky Dolenz · 06-09-2014 01:25PM

That was hard to watch.

Going at that speed is mental, no matter how good a driver someone thinks they are, you are relying on too many conditions to stay in your favour.

The truth is, if the biker was travelling within the speed limit, that crash may have never happened or would not have been fatal.

Wibbs · 06-09-2014 01:31PM

The car didn't hit him though, did it? If a car had been doing the ton he might well have. Just my personal I grant you, but I strongly suspect his statement to the cops was as much shock as anything.

Don't get me wrong I lay blame at the driver. For a start he didn't even indicate, but the biker is nowhere near blameless doing those sort of speeds and maneuvers on a road like that.

Kidchameleon · 06-09-2014 01:34PM

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

I feel it's important to once again point out that the driver of the car admitted to police that he did not look nor see the bike. It wasn't a case, by his own admission, that he looked and thought he had enough time to make the turn, it was the case that he did not look nor see the bike nor the car travelling behind the bike.

have you a source for "did not look"? all i can find is that he said he did not see it...

Jadaol · 06-09-2014 01:36PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I'm a biker, a car driver and cyclist ~ anyone here who tries to lay any blame on the car driver has no appreciation just how much ground a vehicle traveling at 100mph covers a literal blink of an eye.

IMO the driver of the car was almost entirely blameless.

I've seen the video a number of times, and I'm no slow coach on my bike ~ but 97mph on that road with junctions left and right, f*ck you're riding on a prayer!.

Around the city and on national roads like that I truely don't ride particularly fast ~ I'm older and wiser than years ago, but I still give the bike socks on the motorways and would regularly ride twice the speed limit.

Has the video slowed me down since viewing it, not really since I don't ride like that guy on similar roads but its made me question the sanity of someone who does (more than I used to)..

I've looked at the video a couple of times and only really copped the last time that the biker had just overtaken a car, whilst flying down the road and approaching a junction. As someone else said if it didn't happen then it was only a matter of time. Absolutely crazy stuff.

We've all been really stupid on the road but luckily we get away with it most of the time. We don't always know the near misses we've had.

Bepolite · 06-09-2014 01:39PM

I'm digressing a bit but a couple of things strike me.

Firstly a moto I quite like: Accidents are as serious as their consequences.

We're all human, we all make mistakes. The biker shouldn't have been going the speed he was, the driver shouldn't have pulled across. Speed limits aren't pulled out of someone's arse. They are there for good reason. The exception, possibly, being the 120Kph limit which realistically it's not going to matter if you're at 120 or 150, you're likely dead anyway but that limit is one designed for a road with no more vulnerable users.

It really pisses me off seeing people doing stupid speeds in built up area and on country roads. Accidents happen. There are various safety measures in place one of them is speed limits. Speeders and people on mobiles should face short and more frequent bans for everyone's sake. Perhaps a month of having to get a taxi might put off people using mobiles/doing 60 in a 50. I forget how many times it is you're likely to kill someone at 60 than 50 but its a significant increase.

All that said I feel for the guy's family and, it has to be said, for the guy making the illegal turn - a moments lapse will be with him the rest of his life.

laugh · 06-09-2014 01:41PM

Say at the time the car driver makes the decision to cross the road, if the bike was doing the speed limit, would the car have cleared the road before the bike reached the position of the impact?

Menas · 06-09-2014 01:46PM

The whole thing is down to two drivers made mistakes at the wrong time and both lives ruined.... one sadly ended.

The fact that we are debating it so much here is a credit to that video. Even if just those on this thread drive that bit more careful then some good comes from this mess.

Micky Dolenz · 06-09-2014 01:47PM

laugh wrote: »

Say at the time the car driver makes the decision to cross the road, if the bike was doing the speed limit, would the car have cleared the road before the bike reached the position of the impact?

More relevant would be, would the biker have had the time to stop. In any case he would have been travelling at a collision speed that he may have survived from.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 02:02PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently in the court case which found him guilty the prosecution estimated he would have been able to see the biker for seven seconds on that road. I call shenanigans on that .

If you go back the rider starts to over take at 2:48 and the collision happens at 2:54 so at seven seconds the car driver would have needed x-ray vision!.

Someone said the car didn't indicate, tbh its impossible to tell by looking at the video and even if he/she didn't indicate the rider had no time or space to take any sort of evasive action.. btw the biker didn't indicate to overtake.

I can't see how the driver of the car has anything more than the bear minimum of blame (if any).

Duckjob · 06-09-2014 02:16PM

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

The car driver obviously did not look twice.

I'm pretty sure in my 20+ yrs of driving I've made plenty of mistakes/errors.
I'm pretty sure I've failed to "look twice" at junctions the odd time, and if you've been driving any length of time I'm pretty sure you have too.

The driver made a mistake - as has anybody who has been on the road any length of time. They didn't conciously do something to cause an accident.

To be honest I'm relieved he only took himself out. The way he was driving, an accident was inevitable and could have just as easily gone into the side door of the car and wiped half a family out.

Alkers · 06-09-2014 02:20PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

If you go back the rider starts to over take at 2:48 and the collision happens at 2:54 so at seven seconds the car driver would have needed x-ray vision!.

Someone said the car didn't indicate, tbh its impossible to tell by looking at the video and even if he/she didn't indicate the rider had no time or space to take any sort of evasive action.. btw the biker didn't indicate to overtake.

I can't see how the driver of the car has anything more than the bear minimum of blame (if any).

A driver who was behind the car that pulled out testified to having seen both the bike and the car he overtook.
The driver of the car claimed not to have seen either the bike or the car that was overtaken and later admitted that he didn't even look.

Speed was excessive which gave less of an opportunity to see the bike but you're not going to see the bike (or even the car) if you don't even look.

Car 100% at fault for the accident, speed of the biker added to its severity.

Alkers · 06-09-2014 02:21PM

Duckjob wrote: »

I'm pretty sure in my 20+ yrs of driving I've made plenty of mistakes/errors.
I'm pretty sure I've failed to "look twice" at junctions the odd time, and if you've been driving any length of time I'm pretty sure you have too.

The driver made a mistake - as has anybody who has been on the road any length of time. They didn't conciously do something to cause an accident.

To be honest I'm relieved he only took himself out. The way he was driving, an accident was inevitable and could have just as easily gone into the side door of the car and wiped half a family out.

So what if he didn't look a second time and the bike had been doing the speed limit. Still the same result, a dead biker.

Reedsie · 06-09-2014 02:23PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

If you go back the rider starts to over take at 2:48 and the collision happens at 2:54 so at seven seconds the car driver would have needed x-ray vision!.

I hadn't planned on watching it again but did so for the same reason. He overtakes at 2:48 and it is very difficult to even make out the car for the next couple of seconds. The bike of course is much smaller and would have been directly in front of the overtaken car which probably made it more difficult for the car driver.
The car driver was approaching the junction head on. It's a very standard manoeuvre and one most experienced drivers will take almost subconsciously at some stages of their driving. Personally I don't believe he 'didn't look'.

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I can't see how the driver of the car has anything more than the bear minimum of blame (if any).

If the bike had been travelling at 55mph and avoided the car, chances are he would have had nothing more than a bollocking from the police if they had seen it.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 02:28PM

Simona1986 wrote: »

A driver who was behind the car that pulled out testified to having seen both the bike and the car he overtook..

I'd call him a liar to his face

CaptainInsano · 06-09-2014 02:35PM

Reedsie wrote: »

Can't help but feel that he was a bit unfortunate. If the bike was travelling within the recommended speed limit he would have had a much better chance of avoiding the car. It's still careless driving on the car drivers behalf, it's still the exact same dangerous manoeuvre. But it's somewhat because of the motorbikes speed that he is looking at 12 months community sentence and an 18 month driving ban.

I don't know really. We can only speculate on what view the driver had, though it was a straight road and the bike had it's lights on.
I'd put it down to a dangerous mix of speed and lack of concentration.

RustyNut · 06-09-2014 02:39PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I'd call him a liar to his face

But you might be wrong.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 02:44PM

RustyNut wrote: »

But you might be wrong.

I might be, but its my opinion that he's lying.

Its stretching the imagination to believe the driver seen a bike traveling at 100mph through not one but two cars.

I believe he may have seen the moment immediately before the crash and his imagination put the rest together.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 06-09-2014 02:46PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I'd call him a liar to his face

Yeah, but, you're massive.

RustyNut · 06-09-2014 02:49PM

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I might be, but its my opinion that he's lying.

Its stretching the imagination to believe the driver seen a bike traveling at 100mph through not one but two cars.

I believe he may have seen the moment immediately before the crash and his imagination put the rest together.

What possible motivation would an independent witness have to lie during an investigation about a fatal collision?

Reedsie · 06-09-2014 02:49PM

Simona1986 wrote: »

A driver who was behind the car that pulled out testified to having seen both the bike and the car he overtook.

Danica Slow Mitten wrote: »

I'd call him a liar to his face

I'd imagine he noticed him because of the bikers sheer speed.
The thing is that the bike might have been very visible for a split second at the top of the hill when overtaking. It could have happened that the driver behind noticed him at this second and the driver in question was glancing in his mirrors before indicating/moving right (as he should be doing).

If you're in a car with someone who takes a junction like that one ask them 5 or 10 seconds later what cars were coming. What make, what colour. Chances are they won't have a clue. They will have acknowledged if there was a danger or not and proceeded.
Ask a man who has falsely acknowledged the danger and who has had a 100mph motorbike slam into his car and chances are that he will just not know.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 06-09-2014 02:49PM

Ford Big Motel wrote: »

Yeah, but, you're massive.

lol, I'm down to a little 115kgs ~ planning on fighting -100kg in Oct, so I'm at baby elephant size atm :P

Boskowski · 06-09-2014 03:06PM

Mikros wrote: »

I think a few people are missing the point of the video - it's not a blame game where you can simply say oh he was speeding and therefore was responsible for his own death. The video is highlighting how no one goes onto the road planning on being in an accident and just how quick and easy things can go wrong. I'm sure anyone who has driven long enough has had similar slips in concentration, but usually with no harm done.

The complacency that can creep in when driving can and does result in people dying - I think the family of the biker in this video are very brave for putting that out there in such a powerful way.

That's it really. People by and large don't give the appropriate respect which driving a 2 ton propelled vehicle deserves and are too blasé about it. Munching away absend mindedly, phone clipped between ear and shoulder as if it's the same as pushing a shopping trolley down the aisle at tescos.
And that's how sh1t happens.

Havin said that this biker was doing the polar opposite of driving defensively or even carefully. It just leaves you with no room for error.

For me the message is not who's to blame. People on all sides give driving your full attention is the message. A vehicle is a potentially very deadly weapon. We're all so blasé about it but it can happen to anyone in the blink of an eye.

New British Road Safety Vid (Distressing Scenes)

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