Abolish Ireland's Rail System

Hachiko · 03-09-2014 10:22PM

Barely There wrote: »

Seeing as any reference to the current threatened industrial action is apparently off-bounds, I will attempt to get some responses to my propoal again.

A country the size of Ireland does not need a rail system.

Our current inter-urban motorway network is more than sufficient to meet our needs.

At present over 99% of freight is transported by road.
Travel times between our major cities are comparable now by road with the motorway network.
Rail journeys (both passenger and freight) only start to make economic and environmental sense at distances greater than 300km.

I’d like to see us rip up the rail lines and replace them with greenways and then aggressively market our country to tourists as the best country in the world for cycle holidays.

I would like to see a coherent argument put forward by someone who believes that the current sums of money we spend on a rail system is anyway justified.

I am an ex-pat, was on a train once (don't think i used a train more than once in Ireland), it was from Kerry to Dublin. woeful experience, took hours upon hours it seemed.

overpriced junk on the train too, have they changed since then? (this is about 6 years ago).

Busted Flat. · 03-09-2014 10:28PM

Hachiko wrote: »

I am an ex-pat, was on a train once (don't think i used a train more than once in Ireland), it was from Kerry to Dublin. woeful experience, took hours upon hours it seemed.

overpriced junk on the train too, have they changed since then? (this is about 6 years ago).

There is nothing wrong with the railways, except the overpaid semi state clowns that haven't got an idea about running a sack race for under sixes.

end of the road · 03-09-2014 10:37PM

Barely There wrote: »

I've seen international studies which have calculated that train journeys only begin to become more environmentally advantageous at distances greater than 350km

and i've read stuff saying the opposite. frankly a studdy can be made to fit ones agenda.

porsche959 · 03-09-2014 10:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

rubbish. there are many private operators doing just that and doing well. yet many people still use the train, for the simple reason it meets their requirements where as the bus doesn't, just like the train won't meet the requirements of everyone. still no reason to get rid of it for a few bicyclists.

and? so? people have tried this tripe before. it failed last time and it will again. subsidised public transport is here to stay.

Barely There is just spouting the Thatcherite right wing 'logic' of the likes of 'conomist Sean Barrett, who tried to stop the creation of the DART line.

Voodoo economics, in other words.

end of the road · 03-09-2014 10:41PM

Hachiko wrote: »

I am an ex-pat, was on a train once (don't think i used a train more than once in Ireland), it was from Kerry to Dublin. woeful experience, took hours upon hours it seemed.
overpriced junk on the train too, have they changed since then? (this is about 6 years ago).

doubt it. i would only buy a drink on the train myself and thats if i really need one, over priced they certainly are. i find the experience on the train will depend on the rolling stock used, my line for example suburban railcars can turn up to do the 3 hour journey from time to time. but i try find out what services they are booked on so i can try avoid. so its not to bad unless i get caught out.

end of the road · 03-09-2014 10:46PM

porsche959 wrote: »

Barely There is just spouting the Thatcherite right wing 'logic' of the likes of 'conomist Sean Barrett, who tried to stop the creation of the DART line.

Voodoo economics, in other words.

in fairness thatcher didn't even suggest shutting and ripping up the lot, infact she left the railways to get on with things. mind you BR had to build rickity railbuses instead of the proposed class 210 which was unfortunate. there were some closures but they were down to BR themselves. the surpell report which suggested a reign of terror even greater then loony marples and his little lapdog beeching was binned.

n97 mini · 03-09-2014 11:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

can you imagine how many busses would be needed to take over the maynooth line? and the drivers to drive them? and the diesel to fuel them?

There are already a multitude of bus routes operating alongside the Maynooth line. The reality is that while the Maynooth line is profitable, we would survive without it.

n97 mini · 03-09-2014 11:16PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

If we shut down rail a lot of people will end up requiring multilpe modes of transport for commuting to work. I'd have to get a bus to town and then out to leixlip, instead of just getting the train to leixlip from where I live.

You're really just talking about convenience. If there was proper integrated ticketing on Dublin Bus alone (i.e. pay for the total journey, not pay for the individual buses on a multiple bus journey) and services like the 66X were a bit more frequent and ran both ways you might find that getting to Leixlip by bus could be quicker than the train. The train only averages barely above 20 mph remember.

(For the record I'm not advocating the removal of the Maynooth train but there is plenty of scope to improve a pretty p1ss poor service)

Rodge2012 · 03-09-2014 11:27PM

Really? Environmetally rail is a hell of a lot cleaner than road transport, take timber trains from Ballina/Wesport how many hgv's on ill equipped roads does this stop happening, tara mines ore traffic from from Navan to Dublin Port, Dart services throughout the citys east coast. Dublin to Cork/Galway passenger traffic plus outer suburban rail traffic. If our railway network is closed down completely how much is the replacement roads through our cities, from point to point in other parts of the country going to cost? How much are the works to solve already bad bottlenecks going to cost? Plus add in all the works needed on other roads to bring then up to a safe, non chassis wrecking standard?
If existing roads in cities can t handle existing traffic, what hope have they in handling all the extra traffic without comuter or intercity or freight rail services. Add in the cost of converting the old rail lines and the upkeep of the tunnels/embankments/viaducts etc, policing the greenways in an urban environment and it ll all cost a hell of a lot more than the existing subvention to keep our rail network open.

man98 · 03-09-2014 11:36PM

Post the maths for trains being cleaner than buses? Somehow, I doubt the guy keeps calculations made in 2011. Anyway, your study will probably be based on a BR Sprinter vs a modern British bus. The fact is that massive money was spent on these new trains, one of the greenest in Europe. Don't forget, Bus Éireann gets govt. subsidies too.

end of the road · 03-09-2014 11:41PM

n97 mini wrote: »

There are already a multitude of bus routes operating alongside the Maynooth line. The reality is that while the Maynooth line is profitable, we would survive without it.

you would survive. maybe others wouldn't.

n97 mini · 03-09-2014 11:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

you would survive. maybe others wouldn't.

Who? Prove it. Every single stop along the line has a Dublin Bus service close by.

Hachiko · 03-09-2014 11:57PM

Ireland's train system, from what I remember is borderline third world, or somewhere between third world and developed world.

Its no good at the end of the day, its not cheap, not efficient, not fast and not a very nice place to be.

n97 mini · 03-09-2014 11:59PM

Rodge2012 wrote: »

Really? Environmetally rail is a hell of a lot cleaner than road transport,

It takes a certain level of patronage before that's the case. I doubt the level of patronage is sufficient to even surpass cars on some routes. E.g. a 60 tonne 29k with 6 passengers on board works out at 10 tonnes of metal per passenger.

man98 · 04-09-2014 12:11AM

The irony here is that I have a 'Good for the environment - leave your car behind' Bus Éireann banner ad. Back on topic, places like Rathdrum, Kilcoole, Gormamstown and others would suffer without a line. And what about the 1200 passengers using Sligo train station every day? That's an extra 24 bus services - €4 million to buy buses alone for the route.

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:13AM

n97 mini wrote: »

It takes a certain level of patronage before that's the case. I doubt the level of patronage is sufficient to even surpass cars on some routes. E.g. a 60 tonne 29k with 6 passengers on board works out at 10 tonnes of metal per passenger.

where are 29ks running with 6 passengers?

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:15AM

n97 mini wrote: »

Who? Prove it. Every single stop along the line has a Dublin Bus service close by.

prove what. you would survive if the maynooth line wasn't there others may not. its called peoples choice

man98 · 04-09-2014 12:24AM

Can I point out how well replacing the Rosslare - Waterford train with a bus went? Takes longer, instead of up to 70 people using a 1 daily train each way, there's no more than 5 on board 4 - 5 daily buses. Wheelchair users now have to book 2 days in advance, Irish Rail pay BÉ 250k annually, still have yo maintain the line. Semi-state logic. Don't worry, Irish Rail have actively worked to discourage everyone who wanted to operate on the line from going ahead. End of the road will back me up here.

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:27AM

man98 wrote: »

Can I point out how well replacing the Rosslare - Waterford train with a bus went? Takes longer, instead of up to 70 people using a 1 daily train each way, there's no more than 5 on board 4 - 5 daily buses. Wheelchair users now have to book 2 days in advance, Irish Rail pay BÉ 250k annually, still have yo maintain the line. Semi-state logic. Don't worry, Irish Rail have actively worked to discourage everyone who wanted to operate on the line from going ahead. End of the road will back me up here.

yes. thats what i've heard as well. apparently the bus doesn't serve all the villages now? you heard anything about that? frankly i would put nothing past irish rail management when it comes to county wexford and its railways.

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:28AM

end of the road wrote: »

prove what.

You ascertained maybe others wouldn't survive without the Maynooth line. Prove it!

Dravokivich · 04-09-2014 12:29AM

n97 mini wrote: »

You're really just talking about convenience. If there was proper integrated ticketing on Dublin Bus alone (i.e. pay for the total journey, not pay for the individual buses on a multiple bus journey) and services like the 66X were a bit more frequent and ran both ways you might find that getting to Leixlip by bus could be quicker than the train. The train only averages barely above 20 mph remember.

(For the record I'm not advocating the removal of the Maynooth train but there is plenty of scope to improve a pretty p1ss poor service)

I don't live on the route for the bus to leixlip. You as the op missed my point. You see one line that goes from a to b and then think of the bus routes that meet at each end. There's points in between a and b where that way of thinking isn't a workable alternative. It would be like that for a lot of other commuters too.

My concern isn't so much the fare. As its a constant with taxsaver and rambler tickets. But potentially doubling the commuting time should not be seen as something to aspire to.

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:33AM

man98 wrote: »

Can I point out how well replacing the Rosslare - Waterford train with a bus went?

The annual farebox from that line was 50k, the patronage was that low. That wouldn't cover one driver and one bus, never mind a train service with a heap of manual level crossings.

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:35AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

But potentially doubling the commuting time should not be seen as something to aspire to.

I don't think you got my point. A well run bus service would be quicker, as the train aint that quick at all.

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:36AM

n97 mini wrote: »

You ascertained maybe others wouldn't survive without the Maynooth line. Prove it!

i gave an opinion. just because you may survive if the maynooth line went doesn't mean everyone else would or that others have to agree with you. i'm proving nothing

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:40AM

end of the road wrote: »

i gave an opinion... i'm proving nothing

Ok who might not survive, and why?

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:44AM

n97 mini wrote: »

The annual farebox from that line was 50k

according to irish rail i suppose? yeah. so its probably a lot more.

n97 mini wrote: »

the patronage was that low.

i'd say a lot more then let on. it could have been better but it wasn't that bad for a line most didn't know still had a passenger service.

n97 mini wrote: »

That wouldn't cover one driver and one bus, never mind a train service with a heap of manual level crossings.

well we had the money for all that sort of thing. you know improving the network and modernising everything. but it was spent on rolling stock some of which is in store. rosslare waterford still got more users then its bus replacement. getting rid of it achieved nothing.

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:47AM

n97 mini wrote: »

Ok who might not survive, and why?

go find out yourself ask those who use the train. i've better things to do, considering all i suggested is that some may not survive just because you would.

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:51AM

end of the road wrote: »

getting rid of it achieved nothing.

It saved the taxpayer 1.85 million (1.9 million running cost minus 50k fare box). IIRC the daily patronage averaged 26 along the whole route as most of the stations were in picturesque green fields. Here's lovely Campile train station from when the line was running. Observe the vacuous catchment area.

n97 mini · 04-09-2014 12:52AM

end of the road wrote: »

i've better things to do, considering all i suggested is that some may not survive just because you would.

You haven't told us who these people are? Considering you won't back up your assertions I think they may not exist.

end of the road · 04-09-2014 12:57AM

n97 mini wrote: »

It saved the taxpayer 1.85 million (1.9 million running cost minus 50k fare box).

i'm sure it did yeah.

n97 mini wrote: »

IIRC the daily patronage averaged 26 along the whole route as most of the stations were in picturesque green fields.

no there not. they are good villages not green fields. i should know, i live not far from a couple of these areas. from what i can see those figures aren't independantly verifiable. it achieved nothing closing it and thats it. i know your opinion on much of the network so i'l take your stuff with a pinch of salt if its all the same to you thanks very much

Abolish Ireland's Rail System

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