Abolish Ireland's Rail System

Rodge2012

The Waterford to Rosslare railway line would have been a lot more successful if the trains ran at times that suited would be customers and actually connected with other intercity rail services at both ends. The strategic worth of the line was highlighted during the last volcano ash incident, when the trains were well packed. Irish rail in the good times should have automated all level crossings on this and other lines to bring down costs and to increase availabilty of the lines while not incurring expensive overtime or staff payroll costs. Many more specials could then operate on the Waterford line for example to international soccer matches or to/from concerts in Dublin. Going back to the Rosslare line high traffic volumes going to Waterford from South Wexford via New Ross or the cross river ferry would suggest there was a buoyant market that Irish rail missed out on.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure it did yeah.

Let me guess, even though you know better than the official published figures, you're proving nothing, right?

end of the road wrote: »

no there not. they are good villages not green fields. i should know, i live not far from a couple of these areas.

How about you post up a list of "good villages" and their populations. IIRC they're all tiny.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

You haven't told us who these people are?

Considering you won't back up your assertions I think they may not exist.[/QUOTE]

and yours do? why would i bother backing up anything to you. it would never be good enough anyway. specially as its only an opinion not a clame of anything.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

why would i bother backing up anything

It's traditional to back up claims with some sort of figures from a relevant source, otherwise they're just meaningless.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Let me guess, even though you know better than the official published figures, you're proving nothing, right?
How about you post up a list of "good villages" and their populations. IIRC they're all tiny.

still got more rail users then the replacement bus service ever will

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

It's traditional to back up claims with some sort of figures from a relevant source, otherwise they're just meaningless.

and you'l post something to say everyone would survive if the maynooth line closed yeah? no, because you can't. just like i never stated i could for something that was an opinion and nothing more.

n97 mini

Rodge2012 wrote: »

The Waterford to Rosslare railway line would have been a lot more successful if the trains ran at times that suited would be customers and actually connected with other intercity rail services at both ends

I think it would have been more successful, I agree. But would it have been successful enough? I don't think so unfortunately as (a) the intermediate stations in south Wexford have virtually no population to support them and (b) the eastern end goes to Rosslare, not Wexford town. I think it would have had a better chance if the line ran to Rosslare Europort via Wexford town, but it doesn't and that was never on the cards.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

and you'l post something to say everyone would survive if the maynooth line closed yeah?

I already did. Here it is again: every station along the line has a nearby DB service, so no-one will be stuck in their homes. Now tell us why you think they won't survive.

TINA1984

Barely There wrote: »

Possibly because it's difficult to compete against a massively subsidised rail system, however if that system weren't there, the private sector would step in to provide for any demand.

Perhaps you should forward your brainwave onto the British government? They've privatised their railways yet are paying more in public subsidies now then when it was under state ownership.

n97 mini

They also have a vastly superior service.

TINA1984 wrote: »

They are paying more in public subsidies now then when it was under state ownership.

Often mooted around here, and I'm not denying it, but can someone post a link to back this up?

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it would have been more successful, I agree. But would it have been successful enough? I don't think so unfortunately as (a) the intermediate stations in south Wexford have virtually no population to support them and (b) the eastern end goes to Rosslare, not Wexford town.

it still survived for years. give the population a fast reliable rail service they might consider and maybe even use it. waste of time shutting it either way.

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it would have had a better chance if the line ran to Rosslare Europort via Wexford town, but it doesn't and that was never on the cards.

to do that it would have to go to wexford back to rosslare and over to waterford. whereas it could run from rosslare straight to waterford. this is due to the layout at rosslare strand.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I already did. Here it is again: every station along the line has a nearby DB service, so no-one will be stuck in their homes. Now tell us why you think they won't survive.

because maybe they can only travel by train for various reasons. want to do a tad bit of work if they can get a seat. find the train more comfortable. and so on. they won't die. but to get rid of it would be ridiculous

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

They also have a vastly superior service.



Often mooted around here, and I'm not denying it, but can someone post a link to back this up?

this interests me as well so here. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile

http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/why-are-rail-subsidies-so-high

and this at your peril. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_franchising_in_Great_Britain

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

waste of time shutting it either way.

Waste of whose time? The fact of the matter is it runs from an economically poorly performing small regional "city" to a very small ferry port. Its only real potential in modern times was for emigration... but the kids fly to Australia and Canada these days.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Waste of whose time? The fact of the matter is it runs from an economically poorly performing small regional "city" to a very small ferry port. Its only real potential in modern times was for emigration... but the kids fly to Australia and Canada these days.

it could have had potential for a decent commuter service from wexford to waterford even with the layout at rosslare strand. waterford could perform much better if given the chance including encouragement of development and jobs. rosslare is a very important port which should be invested in.

Rodge2012

n97 mini wrote: »

Waste of whose time? The fact of the matter is it runs from an economically poorly performing small regional "city" to a very small ferry port. Its only real potential in modern times was for emigration... but the kids fly to Australia and Canada these days.

its poorly performing because of neglect by government agencies and policies, however there is a noticable improvement in the last few months. In railway terms it has a lot going for it with one of the few rail connected ports in the country, as is it has a pretty good railfreight service with the possibilty of more in the not so distant future. Despite the landslide in the station area the passenger numbers were fairly good over the last few months, Rosslare has beened ruined by years of neglect but with a lack of any decent ferry/public transport no wonder figures are down.

Rodge2012

Bigus wrote: »

That was the only example of ONE out of many lines shut down , the others have yet to re open.

Eh no theres a few more.
Midleton to Glounthaune, Limerick to Ennis, plenty of stations have reopened in the Dublin area, along with the line past Ennis which was opened a few years back.
Theres also the line thats eventually going to go to Navan but is in operation at the Dublin end already.

icdg

n97 mini wrote: »

I already did. Here it is again: every station along the line has a nearby DB service, so no-one will be stuck in their homes. Now tell us why you think they won't survive.

To give an actual example, students in Dublin 15 may have made decisions to go to Maynooth University (as we must now call it) based on the existence of a public transport connection which would no longer exist if the rail line closed. Suddenly their daily commute goes from 20 mins in each direction to a lot longer. They either need to get the 39 all the way into town and a 66 back out again, or get the 239 (which runs only once an hour, so hard luck if you miss the connection) to Lucan and 66 from there.

The Maynooth line is a very bad example to use when trying to advocate closure of railways incidently. It's one of the few that has the high density population to support heavy rail - arguably better than the DART (which has the Irish Sea alongside it for most of the way)

Barely There

Rodge2012 wrote: »

Really? Environmetally rail is a hell of a lot cleaner than road transport, take timber trains from Ballina/Wesport how many hgv's on ill equipped roads does this stop happening, tara mines ore traffic from from Navan to Dublin Port, Dart services throughout the citys east coast.

man98 wrote: »

Post the maths for trains being cleaner than buses? Somehow, I doubt the guy keeps calculations made in 2011. Anyway, your study will probably be based on a BR Sprinter vs a modern British bus. .

Seeing as you've no actual figures to back up your claims, I can post some to back up mine. Have a look at EC Communication 2007 Logistics: Keeping Freight Moving, Memo.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...guiLanguage=en

There's a graph about halfway down (if you select the pdf version of the file) which compares the costs of rail and road freight transport.

We transport less than 1% of freight by rail (and this is falling all the time).

TINA1984 wrote: »

Perhaps you should forward your brainwave onto the British government? They've privatised their railways yet are paying more in public subsidies now then when it was under state ownership.

Don't see the relevance of this at all - I don't want IR privatised. I'd like to see it abolished in its entirety.


The fact is that for a country the size and population density of Ireland, road is the most appropriate means of transporting goods and people.
For rail to become competitive with road transport, large government investment and cost differential funding would be required. Would this investment would provide value for money? - the short answer is absolutely not! Express coach services are quicker, more economical and more environmentally friendly than running trains.




In Ireland, the dispersed and relatively low density pattern of residential development results in demand for many rail movements being too low to make it viable to provide for high-frequency, competitively priced rail transport options. It is likely that even an unrealistically high level of investment and impractically ambitious programme of improvement to the inter-urban rail network would only have a small impact on traffic levels.

Rodge2012

Container traffic has expanded in the last year or so with extra trains travelling between Dublin and Ballina, add in the reintroduction of the dfds service from Waterford to Ballina. Timber traffic from Ballina/Westport to Waterford is buoyant.
As for figures try find one with actual irish locomotive emissions figures and also ones that allow for longer truck journeys on our delighthful roads.

Banjoxed

Children. Bloody layabouts the lot of them. And Pets. Waste of economic resources the lot of them. Cats need to be put on treadmills. That will lead to greater efficencies.

What I'm really wondering is why a forum aimed as being the rail enthusiast bit of boards is being targeted this way. Would the OP enjoy Jehovah's Witnesses knocking him up at 8.30 on a Saturday?

n97 mini

icdg wrote: »

To give an actual example, students in Dublin 15 may have made decisions to go to Maynooth University (as we must now call it) based on the existence of a public transport connection which would no longer exist if the rail line closed. Suddenly their daily commute goes from 20 mins in each direction to a lot longer. They either need to get the 39 all the way into town and a 66 back out again, or get the 239 (which runs only once an hour, so hard luck if you miss the connection) to Lucan and 66 from there.

You've shown that they wouldn't be stuck, just inconvenienced. I do agree that the Maynooth line (or any of the Dublin urban lines) and not candidates for closer, but the irony is they already have competing bus services which are usually a lot more frequent. Take Adamstown Station, no sooner had it opened than DB create the 25B route which starts at the station and isn't timed to meet any trains, i.e. it competitive not complimentary.

Rodge2012

So what are the canditates for closure then?
All existing lines have been scrutinised to the nth degree, all existing lines have the capability/spare capacity to have a decent service in terms of freight/passenger and as the economy returns to a more favourable footing all the lines in the network will improve in terms of passenger numbers and possible freight tonnage.

Banjoxed

Letterkenny is a good example of the outworking of the land use and transport policy that the OP's desire would produce. Sprawled, ribbon development and entirely car based shopping malls that need to be driven to from one end to the other. The town is incoherent, ugly and congested.

Now who benefits from that? The Little Americanisation of Ireland? Maybe it's like the Harcourt Street line closure where Andrew's links to Roadstone also helped car dealers sell more cars as well as more Tarmac. What works in a large and dispersed country like Canada for example goes in the face of what we should be encouraging, greater population density and transport links on a European model. Instead, some middle class Irish people would prefer to see the country hollowed out instead, and our own alleged surplus transported to Canada instead.

BarryD

Barely There wrote: »

I’d like to see us rip up the rail lines and replace them with greenways and then aggressively market our country to tourists as the best country in the world for cycle holidays.

Bit of a glib suggestion - the old Westport to Achill rail line works as a Greenway cycle route due to the scenery over Clew Bay etc. But that doesn't necessarily extend to all other rail lines. By definition, rail lines tend to be flattish, certainly of a very regular gradient - so basically boring in that sense. Even for cycling, the odd hill here & there adds a bit of interest. So might work say along the Dublin to Rosslare line - nice scenery. But monotonous through much of the midlands.

Barely There

Banjoxed wrote: »

What I'm really wondering is why a forum aimed as being the rail enthusiast bit of boards is being targeted this way. Would the OP enjoy Jehovah's Witnesses knocking him up at 8.30 on a Saturday?

Targeted?
I'm just looking for someone to give reasoned argument that the retention of inter-urban rail services makes any kind of economic, social or environmental sense in this Country. So far nobody has managed to do so.
I don't see how you have any case that you're somehow being persecuted for being a rail enthusiast by being asked to justify the money the taxpayers pay for said service.

Rodge2012 wrote: »

So what are the canditates for closure then?
All existing lines have been scrutinised to the nth degree, all existing lines have the capability/spare capacity to have a decent service in terms of freight/passenger and as the economy returns to a more favourable footing all the lines in the network will improve in terms of passenger numbers and possible freight tonnage.

You're missing the point - there is plenty of additional capacity on the motorway network to cater for the existing passengers using the train as well as any possible increases.

Banjoxed wrote: »

Letterkenny is a good example of the outworking of the land use and transport policy that the OP's desire would produce. Sprawled, ribbon development and entirely car based shopping malls that need to be driven to from one end to the other. The town is incoherent, ugly and congested.

I fail to see how closure of an inter-urban rail service and relacement of same with an equivalent bus service contributes to any of the issues you've mentioned.
Perhaps you could explain.

Barely There

BarryD wrote: »

Bit of a glib suggestion - the old Westport to Achill rail line works as a Greenway cycle route due to the scenery over Clew Bay etc. But that doesn't necessarily extend to all other rail lines. By definition, rail lines tend to be flattish, certainly of a very regular gradient - so basically boring in that sense. Even for cycling, the odd hill here & there adds a bit of interest. So might work say along the Dublin to Rosslare line - nice scenery. But monotonous through much of the midlands.

Yes, this is exactly why they make such good Greenways.

Imagine if we could convert the railines from something which is costing us millions every year into something which is generating millions instead.

jumbo

n97 mini wrote: »

You've shown that they wouldn't be stuck, <b>just inconvenienced.</b>

*splutter!*

Effects

Barely There wrote: »

There's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing.

People don't enjoy themselves in appropriate clothing. Cycling in the rain wearing rain gear isn't fun.

ArmaniJeanss

Barely There wrote: »

Yes, this is exactly why they make such good Greenways.

Imagine if we could convert the railines from something which is costing us millions every year into something which is generating millions instead.

Presumably cycling along a greenway is intended to be free, yet the 200k long greenway will itself cost a sizeable sum to maintain. So it doesn't actually generate anything directly, in fact its a sizeable enough negative in the balance sheet.
Its benefits are fairly indirect, much like the railways.