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Murder hate crime (blacks kill whites)

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Comments

  • #182
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    This. Pretending to live in a color blind society will not make racism disappear. The ghettoes of the suburbs of Paris are proof of this.

    So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.


  • #183
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    This is totally ridiculous. Not talking about racism will not make it go away.
    You keep talking for black americans when you aren't black or even american.

    Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?


  • #184
    creolebelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭creolebelle


    jank wrote: »
    So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.

    Denying inequality will not usher in a age of equality. I would love to live in a color blind country but I am wise enough to know that I don't


  • #185
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Ah, black french people = black american people. OK.

    Black French people, Muslims, Asians.......there is no distinction made, no official information gathered and it is illegal to do so and has been for decades. Yet there is racism in France - why?


  • #186
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?

    The last time I heard that was a priest explaining why they can give marriage advice despite being sworn celibates. No lie.


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  • #187
    creolebelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭creolebelle


    jank wrote: »
    Does a doctor need to have cancer to treat it?

    False analogy.
    It's ridiculous that you somehow feel like you know more about the ills of my country and community when you don't live in it and are not member of my community
    It's like me arguing with the members on here about being irish. It would be arrogant of me to do so


  • #188
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    *bangs head* The michael brown case is proof of excessive force used in low income black neighborhoods. It's a lot more complicated than white people being racist. It's about the deep rooted belief that black Americans are dangerous and violent which is present throughout this thread, I assume most the posters in here have had limited or no interaction with black Americans

    Em, the statistics are right here. Black people make up 13% of the population, make 50% of murder victims, 91% of those by other blacks. It is not a belief. Some black neighbourhoods have massive problems with crime that is no evident in other minority neighbourhoods. This is a fact, unfortunately.

    Sand is right, there is no evidence that the Michael Brown case was racially motived, never mind what the media are telling you. The media tell naive people that blacks are in fear of their lives from the police, well they should be in fear of being killed by their own much more, yet this does not make a news story. How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.


  • #189
    creolebelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭creolebelle


    jank wrote: »
    Em, the statistics are right here. Black people make up 13% of the population, make 50% of murder victims, 91% of those by other blacks. It is not a belief. Some black neighbourhoods have massive problems with crime that is no evident in other minority neighbourhoods. This is a fact, unfortunately.

    Sand is right, there is no evidence that the Michael Brown case was racially motived, never mind what the media are telling you. The media tell naive people that blacks are in fear of their lives from the police, well they should be in fear of being killed by their own much more, yet this does not make a news story. How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.

    The black murder rate will not disappear without the proper analyzation of the cause. A high crime rate is seen in disenfranchised communities all over the world. Again you seem to be arguing that black Americans are innately violent and deserved to be brutalized by the police.
    Yes the michael brown case is about race when black people are more likely to be killed by police than white people when they are often acting in the same manner or the white subjects were acting more aggressively compared to their black peers.
    I have a lot of family members who work in the criminal justice system( cops and attorneys) and they all feel that police officers behave differently when dealing with black people


  • #190
    creolebelle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭creolebelle


    ^^ Before the mass arrival of African Americans to Chicago it was the irish, Italians and Jews who were killing each other like flies: They were not part of mainstream american culture and lived in horrible conditions.
    . The same pattern that is present in Chicago today.


  • #191
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    Denying inequality will not usher in a age of equality. I would love to live in a color blind country but I am wise enough to know that I don't

    Again, you want equality but you also want society to be not colour blind. A society that acknowledges peoples colour cannot be equal.


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  • #192
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Black French people, Muslims, Asians.......there is no distinction made, no official information gathered and it is illegal to do so and has been for decades. Yet there is racism in France - why?

    There is racism in every country in the world, France or the US is no different. Do you want the french government to start dividing people into different races and classifying them so that they can treat them all differently. Is that your solution?
    Are french minorities killing each other on the same scale as the US? Perhaps the french policy is working better than you think.


  • #193
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    False analogy.
    It's ridiculous that you somehow feel like you know more about the ills of my country and community when you don't live in it and are not member of my community
    It's like me arguing with the members on here about being irish. It would be arrogant of me to do so

    Enough about the ad hominem. What you are now trying to do is win an argument by stating the following.
    a) I don't live in the US currently ( I did live there before) b) I am not an African American. Therefore my opinions are not as valid as an African American who lives in one of those suburbs we are talking about. This is again ironically reverse racism on your behalf.

    This is a public discussion forum open to anyone and everyone. If you do not like your world view challenged then nobody is forcing you to read or participate. I have posted numerous statistics and facts regarding the disparity of incomes levels, crime levels and school drop out levels. You have not attempted at all to tackle any of them, instead you resort to ad-hominom described above. i.e playing the man not the ball.


  • #194
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    jank wrote: »
    How many young black men were killed in south Chicago the same week. Its ****ing tragedy and the sooner people stop talking around the issue and start talking truths and facts the sooner things can be improved.

    29 shot and 7 killed just that weekend alone.


  • #195
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    jank wrote:
    Of course it relates. Many black people are sick of being treated differently by well meaning but foolish white people as if they need special help all the time. That was exactly his point. The sooner people drop the 'black' and 'white' the sooner racism goes away. If people talk about it all the time it will always be there.


    But the problem is they are different and their socioeconomic and environmental circumstances and very different. When you place a large number of people into housing projects with inadequate services and lack of access to resources there are going to be major issues and feelings of disenfranchisement. it is only a few generations since African Americans were sold openly on the streets as a commodity to be used and abused. It would be foolish to think that this would not result in systemic racism that lingers on. while not overtly racist anymore in policies it is the attitudes that need to catch up but that will be a longer process. We don't have to look very far to see the impact of attitudes like that as it created the conditions for armed conflict in Ireland in the not to distant past.


  • #196
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    jank wrote: »
    Enough about the ad hominem. What you are now trying to do is win an argument by stating the following.
    a) I don't live in the US currently ( I did live there before) b) I am not an African American. Therefore my opinions are not as valid as an African American who lives in one of those suburbs we are talking about. This is again ironically reverse racism on your behalf.
    Nothing incorrect about that. It is staggeringly arrogant to claim to know how a group which you're not a member of feels.
    It's like the geniuses who aren't Jewish saying Holocaust survivors/relatives of Holocaust survivors who feel uncomfortable with those Zara children's pyjamas (stripes, a star) need to get over it and not be so sensitive.


  • #197
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    jank wrote: »
    So, you want equality but don't want to live in a society that is colour blind. That is an oxymoron.

    Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !


  • #198
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !

    Ever hear of Dillon Taylor. Exact same situation as the Brown shooting. Except Taylor was white and the cop, black. Taylor was unarmed. But, unlike the Brown shooting; the media pretty much ignored it.


  • #199
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Oh come on, you're not being treated equally when law enforcement are viewed as untrustworthy because they will shoot unarmed black people but not unarmed white people. When one is expected to go to greater lengths to get a job because of one's skin colour. But come on Jank, show us proof that racism is a creation of the liberal media agenda etc !

    Is there empirical proof of this claim? Or are you just following the status que?
    I acknowledge racism but don't follow blindly that the cause of black violence is itself racism. Why is racism the cause of young black men shooting each other?No one has proved that yet to me, only loose talk with a dollop of emotions.


  • #200
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    creolebelle wrote: »
    The black murder rate will not disappear without the proper analyzation of the cause. A high crime rate is seen in disenfranchised communities all over the world. Again you seem to be arguing that black Americans are innately violent and deserved to be brutalized by the police.

    Oh please, stop it with the hysterics. I never said such a thing and it displays more about you that you have to resort to such attacks to prove a point.
    creolebelle wrote: »
    Yes the michael brown case is about race when black people are more likely to be killed by police than white people when they are often acting in the same manner or the white subjects were acting more aggressively compared to their black peers.

    Black people are more likely to be killed by other black people, this is a fact that you have never dispute but resort to roundabout arguments to try and dissemble.
    creolebelle wrote: »
    I have a lot of family members who work in the criminal justice system( cops and attorneys) and they all feel that police officers behave differently when dealing with black people

    Anecdotal evidence is one of the reasons the US is in this mess. Anecdotal evidence is the reason why most black americans think office Wilson is guilt even though there is till a full investigation on going. It is amazing what wishful thinking does.


  • #201
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    There is racism in every country in the world, France or the US is no different. Do you want the french government to start dividing people into different races and classifying them so that they can treat them all differently. Is that your solution?
    Are french minorities killing each other on the same scale as the US? Perhaps the french policy is working better than you think.


    Odd that in previous posts you were complaining about riots and ghettos in France and now that it practices what you preach, you want to hold it up as an example of how to do things.


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  • #202
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Can you quote these posts as I am sure even if I made them you are taking them out of context.


  • #203
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Can you quote these posts as I am sure even if I made them you are taking them out of context.

    Here you mention the rise of the far right in France, and I think we know they're not exactly on the happy clappy bus
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88699059&postcount=236

    Here you refer to "race riots" in France
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88737263&postcount=257

    "ghettos" in France
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84798551&postcount=183

    Personally now, I think France could be a lot worse, but its far from perfect. However you seem to have been struck by some conversion on a road to Damascus with regard to the matter.


  • #204
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Yes, I mention race riots in France, I mention immigrant ghettos in France.. is there some kind of 'gottcha' here cause I am not seeing it.
    This still does not quell the FACT that the black american crime rate is higher than that in France which was my actual point but of course you are so desperate move the topic along in an effort to try quell any answer to questions I raised before hand. So unless you actually have a point to all this....

    Are you advocating race cataloguing in France, which will help race relations, if so how will this help race relations? Second time asking this.


  • #205
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Yes, I mention race riots in France, I mention immigrant ghettos in France.. is there some kind of 'gottcha' here cause I am not seeing it.
    This still does not quell the FACT that the black american crime rate is higher than that in France which was my actual point but of course you are so desperate move the topic along in an effort to try quell any answer to questions I raised before hand. So unless you actually have a point to all this....
    .

    Well, you advocated an approach that's been adopted in a country you already criticise.....

    America is famous for it's sparse social 'safety net' and has a higher level of violent crime overall. Add in the complicating factor of racism and there we are.
    jank wrote: »
    Are you advocating race cataloguing in France, which will help race relations, if so how will this help race relations? Second time asking this.

    A certain amount of "race cataloguing" would perhaps allow racism to the catalogued and thus tackled.


  • #206
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    creolebelle wrote: »
    *bangs head*

    You're going to wind up hurting yourself if that's your reaction when you see something you disagree with on the internet.
    The michael brown case is proof of excessive force used in low income black neighborhoods.

    Proof? The whole case hinges on if Wilson used excessive force or not. They are still collecting evidence on what exactly happened so they can determine if Wilsons decision to shoot Brown was excessive or reasonable. There's been no judgement yet to my knowledge, and its quite possible the finding will be that Wilson did not use excessive force.

    On the other hand, in the McDonalds case despite a (black female) witness testifying that she believed race was a motivation in the attack, and one of the killers introducing race as a motivation in his defence...it's ridiculous to consider it might have been a hate crime?
    It's a lot more complicated than white people being racist. It's about the deep rooted belief that black Americans are dangerous and violent which is present throughout this thread, I assume most the posters in here have had limited or no interaction with black Americans

    As Jank has pointed out, it is not about a belief. It is about evidence. Black people commit half the murders in the US despite being only 13% of the population. Young black men are 14 times more likely than a young white man to murder someone. Their targets are usually other black people. Indeed, the greatest threat to a young black male is not a white cop. It is another young black male. That's pretty bloody tragic.

    Now, I don't believe those stats are down to race. They reflect pervasive poverty, as well as gang and drug issues (which it might surprise you to find also happens to poor white people. Yes, even poor white people in Ireland) and black peoples over representation in such poor, troubled neighbourhoods. But that might explain why police seem to use excessive force in poor, violent neighbourhoods without needing to refer to race.
    It's ridiculous that you somehow feel like you know more about the ills of my country and community when you don't live in it and are not member of my community
    It's like me arguing with the members on here about being irish. It would be arrogant of me to do so... A high crime rate is seen in disenfranchised communities all over the world. .... Before the mass arrival of African Americans to Chicago it was the irish, Italians and Jews who were killing each other like flies: They were not part of mainstream american culture and lived in horrible conditions.
    . The same pattern that is present in Chicago today.

    On the one hand you say white people, especially white foreign people just don't understand disenfranchisement, crime or troubled communities. That we have no insight into it. I guess we don't have crime or troubled, disenfranchised communities.

    Then you go on and draw parallels between the high crime rate of black america and "disenfranchised communities all over the world" and the linked experience - and crime rate - of blacks, Irish, Italians and Jews in Chicago with the only unifying factor being they lived outside of the mainstream community in horrible conditions. As if you had insight into Irish, Italian or Jewish communities...let alone "disenfranchised communities all over the world".

    I think the reality is you find white people criticising your narrative patronising. If we agreed with you, it wouldn't be a problem insight or no insight.


  • #207
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Nodin wrote: »
    A certain amount of "race cataloguing" would perhaps allow racism to the catalogued and thus tackled.

    Has this approach solved racism...anywhere?


  • #208
    crockholm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    creolebelle wrote: »
    ^^ Before the mass arrival of African Americans to Chicago it was the irish, Italians and Jews who were killing each other like flies: They were not part of mainstream american culture and lived in horrible conditions.
    . The same pattern that is present in Chicago today.

    I disagree,between 1870-1930 there were approx 11,000 homicides in Chicago(which btw already had a solidly black Community in Englewood at the time of the 1919 race riots).All of this during a heyday of immigration,depression,prohibition that fuelled the White ethnic mobsters.

    During "Da Boss Jr." terms of office between 1989-2011 there were 14,500+ murders.

    When chicago's population was at it's highest(in the 1950s) there were still only on average about 300 murders p.a.with 900,000 more inhabitants than today, so to suggest like for like is not very accurate in this instance.


  • #209
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sand wrote: »
    Has this approach solved racism...anywhere?

    It seems to have lessened it in the States, as I have noticed something different about the current US president that distinguishes him from those who previously held the office. Indeed one can see African American scientists, Police, lawyers and so on. Considering the history of the US, they've made considerable progress to the end goal.


  • #210
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    crockholm wrote: »
    I disagree,between 1870-1930 there were approx 11,000 homicides in Chicago(which btw already had a solidly black Community in Englewood at the time of the 1919 race riots).All of this during a heyday of immigration,depression,prohibition that fuelled the White ethnic mobsters.

    During "Da Boss Jr." terms of office between 1989-2011 there were 14,500+ murders.

    When chicago's population was at it's highest(in the 1950s) there were still only on average about 300 murders p.a.with 900,000 more inhabitants than today, so to suggest like for like is not very accurate in this instance.

    In 1870 there were barely 300,000 people in Chicago. In addition, it's widely acknowledged that the spread of the drugs trade and hard drug use increased the level of violence in the US overall.


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  • #211
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    It seems to have lessened it in the States, as I have noticed something different about the current US president that distinguishes him from those who previously held the office. Indeed one can see African American scientists, Police, lawyers and so on. Considering the history of the US, they've made considerable progress to the end goal.

    Race 'cataloging' has had a direct effect in electing Obama and gave black scientists,black lawyers and black police officers jobs.... Oh jebus. There are NO black scientists, polices officers or lawyers in France?

    Indeed if the US is so much better at race relations than France why then are African Americans much more likely to end up on the receiving end of violence and being a perpetrator of violence, even when considering other minorities in the US. Seems as per usual you want to have that vegan gluten free chocolate brownie and eat it as well.


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