If you're not academic, are you f***ed?

Grayson · 27-08-2014 11:42AM

smash wrote: »

Well done on providing the most untrue post I've read this year. What a load of utter shíte.

Prove me wrong. Seriously, go and get a load of jobs from accenture, google, facebook etc that pay over 40k and don't require a degree.

Time was a few years ago where experience was all you needed, now nearly every large company asks for degree + experience because they have so many applicants they can.

Or you can make claims.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 27-08-2014 11:48AM

topper75 wrote: »

The view contrasts with yours seemingly so I'm a troll or have a chip on my shoulder. :eek:
I say again - college and academia is a waste of time.
I'm talking from personal experience, so you won't be able to stick that in your list of 'references' at the back of the thread or 'peer-review' my post!

Apprenticeships and on-the job training are the only meaningful training for any career or occupation.

I have no problem with you or anyone disagreeing with my view, but stating that college is a waste of time is clearly totally false. Health care professionals learning totally on the job would be a disaster as one example. Aside from that obvious example, how do you think knowledge develops and expands? Electricity for example, if someone somewhere didn't study the fundamentals of conductance how would electricity have developed?

Unfortunately there is usually a long lead time between developing this fundamental knowledge (eg conductance theory) and the application of the knowledge in a practical product (eg electric lighting in your house). Without the fundamental knowledge however the product could never hope to exist. I think a lot of people miss that aspect of academic study.

RoboRat · 27-08-2014 11:59AM

Please expand on this painter making more than twice the average wage.

He is extremely efficient at what he does, discreet, will work however long it takes to get the job done on time and the quality is absolutely top notch - you may think that there is no big deal in the quality when it comes to painting but you would be very wrong.

He has built up a reputation that all the top hotels and businesses want to use his company because they will get it done quickly, when it suits them and done perfectly ensuring minimum down time... and they are willing to pay higher rates for that service.

As I said, think outside the box and be the best and there is no reason why you cant be extremely successful.

27-08-2014 12:02PM

Generally speaking, you will be better off with better qualifications. It is hard to argue with that

Into The Blue · 27-08-2014 12:07PM

Holsten wrote: »

Please expand on this painter making more than twice the average wage.

Out of that 1500 weekly income, he would have to pay insurance, holiday pay, travel expenses (van, diesel, tax, insurance), pension, equipment, time spent off site getting work..

So his 1500pw probably isnt much more than what it costs a company to have an employee every week.

topper75 · 27-08-2014 12:16PM

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I have no problem with you or anyone disagreeing with my view, but stating that college is a waste of time is clearly totally false. Health care professionals learning totally on the job would be a disaster as one example. Aside from that obvious example, how do you think knowledge develops and expands? Electricity for example, if someone somewhere didn't study the fundamentals of conductance how would electricity have developed?

Unfortunately there is usually a long lead time between developing this fundamental knowledge (eg conductance theory) and the application of the knowledge in a practical product (eg electric lighting in your house). Without the fundamental knowledge however the product could never hope to exist. I think a lot of people miss that aspect of academic study.

You assume that fundamentals can only be established through academic study.
Cases where academia lead and practicalities follow are few and far between (maybe the Russian revolution following Marx's writings might be an example). However, academia largely attempts to explain lab discoveries after the fact. It is an expensive way of trying interpret change that has already happened and rarely a driver of it.

Dave! · 27-08-2014 01:48PM

Manach wrote: »

@Dave!. Empirically speaking Id disagree. The S/W industry very much expects some form a higher education Diploma/Degree. This is based on a perusal of various job specs and former interviews. Founders of Co. like Gates can get away no qualifications, the rest of us not so much.

Not sure where you're going for interviews. Are these for recent graduate jobs or something? I'd agree in that case, if there's not much else to talk about then they have to talk about your college experience. But I'm on the job hunt at the moment, and have interviewed with 4 or 5 places, and my degree only came up during one, because I did a weird joint major thing and they were curious. I've got about 3.5 years' experience, and a bunch of personal projects that I work on – that's enough to talk about during an interview. What I did in college is irrelevant (thankfully for me, because I did pretty sh*te in college).

I reckon though even less experienced people would be able to get a job without the degree if they have enough good personal projects to point to, maybe a GitHub account, StackOverflow account, etc.

Yes there's often degrees mentioned on job specs as standard, but it's rarely important. Sometimes a HR manager might care about it – but the CTO/hiring manager will not, so if you can get your application directly to them, that's ideal. That's certainly my experience of small and medium sized companies/startups anyway.

Santa Cruz · 27-08-2014 02:20PM

I remember years ago Sean Quinn being asked if he regretted not having a university qualification. He replied while it would have been useful he wouldn't like to think it would have taken away his ability to take a gamble on his instincts. I wonder whether or not he would answer the question the same way now. I don't think the likes of Quinn, Albert Reynolds, Larry Goodman would succeed today without either they or the people around them having university qualifications in finance management, international marketing etc.

seamus · 27-08-2014 02:33PM

Dave! wrote: »

Yes there's often degrees mentioned on job specs as standard, but it's rarely important. Sometimes a HR manager might care about it – but the CTO/hiring manager will not, so if you can get your application directly to them, that's ideal. That's certainly my experience of small and medium sized companies/startups anyway.

Depends on the manager. There are two higher managers, one of whom is a former developer, who will throw a CV in the bin if it doesn't have at least one honour's degree in it.
We basically have to perform 3 interviews first to prove that the people are more than capable enough without their degrees.

Also depends on the company. Some will reject out of hand any CV without a 3rd level qualification. Google kind of started it, and it's infected other companies. In fact, Google have been so gung-ho about it, that it's a problem. Half of their workforce is overqualified - Ph.Ds providing phone support for AdWords and engineers with doctorates in theoretical physics swapping out discs in server racks.

gugleguy · 27-08-2014 02:34PM

I'm not academic. Fact. Am I fccked? No. I have over 10 years work experience. I'm not in debt. I knew somebody who is'nt academic either. There's a more likely chance of "Dan" being fccked. Why? In our Diploma year in college he spoke how suave he was at "fast - talking" the course tutor into giving us more time past the deadline for the project. "Dan" also spent a lot of time (2 hours a night, 3 nights of the week) in the diploma year in that college society. This took place over 14 years ago now.
If you know me on boards, you know my personality by now. No, I don't have the family, the car, the dream job but I'm not fccked.

Shiraz 4.99 · 27-08-2014 03:01PM

No, of course you're not fcuked but you are taking the more difficult path at life.
You don't want to be outdoors in the winter plastering walls at 68 years of age.
Company incentives like pension contributions & bonuses are often only accessible to office employees.

Grayson · 27-08-2014 03:18PM

topper75 wrote: »

You assume that fundamentals can only be established through academic study.
Cases where academia lead and practicalities follow are few and far between (maybe the Russian revolution following Marx's writings might be an example). However, academia largely attempts to explain lab discoveries after the fact. It is an expensive way of trying interpret change that has already happened and rarely a driver of it.

Because all those freelancers discovered quantum theory

Now I was a bit sly and wrote quantum theory because relativity was discovered in Einsteins sitting room.

nevertheless most of the scientific advancements occur in universities or at the very least came from people who had a college education.
This can even be traced back to the first universities or even academies. Plato's academy turned out Aristotle.

Grayson · 27-08-2014 03:21PM

seamus wrote: »

Depends on the manager. There are two higher managers, one of whom is a former developer, who will throw a CV in the bin if it doesn't have at least one honour's degree in it.
We basically have to perform 3 interviews first to prove that the people are more than capable enough without their degrees.

Also depends on the company. Some will reject out of hand any CV without a 3rd level qualification. Google kind of started it, and it's infected other companies. In fact, Google have been so gung-ho about it, that it's a problem. Half of their workforce is overqualified - Ph.Ds providing phone support for AdWords and engineers with doctorates in theoretical physics swapping out discs in server racks.

I know that here they receive over 1000 applicants for some positions. Having a degree is a simple way to whittle down the applicants to something like 500. then they look at experience and whittle it down further. It's only when they've whittled it down to a suitable number that they will actually read CV's and then invite people to interview.

Grayson · 27-08-2014 03:24PM

Dave! wrote: »

Not sure where you're going for interviews. Are these for recent graduate jobs or something? I'd agree in that case, if there's not much else to talk about then they have to talk about your college experience. But I'm on the job hunt at the moment, and have interviewed with 4 or 5 places, and my degree only came up during one, because I did a weird joint major thing and they were curious. I've got about 3.5 years' experience, and a bunch of personal projects that I work on – that's enough to talk about during an interview. What I did in college is irrelevant (thankfully for me, because I did pretty sh*te in college).

I reckon though even less experienced people would be able to get a job without the degree if they have enough good personal projects to point to, maybe a GitHub account, StackOverflow account, etc.

Yes there's often degrees mentioned on job specs as standard, but it's rarely important. Sometimes a HR manager might care about it – but the CTO/hiring manager will not, so if you can get your application directly to them, that's ideal. That's certainly my experience of small and medium sized companies/startups anyway.

but you have a degree and that's the point. It's not that you get the job because of it, it's because you wouldn't have gotten an interview if you didn't have it.

Dave! · 27-08-2014 04:34PM

seamus wrote: »

Depends on the manager. There are two higher managers, one of whom is a former developer, who will throw a CV in the bin if it doesn't have at least one honour's degree in it.
We basically have to perform 3 interviews first to prove that the people are more than capable enough without their degrees.

Also depends on the company. Some will reject out of hand any CV without a 3rd level qualification. Google kind of started it, and it's infected other companies. In fact, Google have been so gung-ho about it, that it's a problem. Half of their workforce is overqualified - Ph.Ds providing phone support for AdWords and engineers with doctorates in theoretical physics swapping out discs in server racks.

I think it's primarily a phenomenon for developers just starting out/with no experience and/or in bigger companies like Google and Facebook. In my experience most of the newer tech companies and startups have more progressive hiring practices.

Grayson wrote: »

but you have a degree and that's the point. It's not that you get the job because of it, it's because you wouldn't have gotten an interview if you didn't have it.

I don't agree tbh. It has been a much more human process than I experienced a few years ago; personality and networks come into it hugely. There is no way that the companies I interviewed with cared about my degree. It's 3 lines at the end of my CV now, I doubt they even noticed it. My CV didn't even hit a HR person.

If you're receiving 1000 applications, then yes you'll probably use stuff like that to whittle it down to a more manageable number. Irish startups in my experience tend to be cursing the lack of available (Ruby) developers these days, I don't imagine they're getting 1000 applications for the most part :-/

gugleguy · 27-08-2014 04:38PM

I keep trained up in my disciplines by doing online courses like I am at the moment. And since working with the buffoon above I don't tolerate fools at all.

DS86 · 27-08-2014 05:18PM

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

With the exception of say Doctors, Dentists or people performing life saving surgery, no profession should really need a university degree to enter into. The new culture of asking for a BA degree for just about any job that pays well is quite a recent development, say within the past 50 years. It has become a screening method of candidates for lazy and miser employers who do not wish to provide the time and finances for on-the-job training themselves, and leave all the grunt work to the universities. For example, even Engineers until relatively recently could be trained through an on-the-job apprenticeship without having to sit through a 4 year college degree. Now however, all of the employers within that field are demanding university or college degrees. And this culture has branched into nearly just about every other field at this stage which isn't either (a) a minimum wage job, or (b) a job where an apprenticeship can get you into.

Also the purpose and the intention of the University in it's original form has been obscured by this new culture. Universities were always supposed to be, and indeed should be - a place where you go to learn for the sake of learning. That is why, as so many Engineering students etc. like to point out, they teach "useless" degrees such as Philosophy, Theology, History, Latin etc. Well guess what, that's what universities were actually put there for in the first place, and that is the function they served for centuries until relatively recently, and those subjects have been there since the very beginning, unlike say Engineering or Business.

So, no you don't need a degree to get ahead. A sharp mind and/ or a passion for a field whether it involves intellectual or physical labour, and with enough work experience should pave the way to riches. Don't listen to anybody who says otherwise, whether it's (a) employers who in recent decades have managed to reduce Universities to nothing more than training grounds and diploma mills for their own selfish purposes and have thus destroyed the original meaning of the University or (b) modern Universities who would love people to believe this nonsense, so that they, and only they can be seen to have a monopoly on economic and personal advancement, thus benefiting themselves.

Anyways with the internet now and with the potential for autodidactism, and with a hopefully changing economic culture, hopefully the culture employment culture of say e.g. "Car salesperson required, must have BA in English" will be reformed. Countries like Germany would be a good place to learn from whereby students are given the option of been trained into an apprenticeship with equal weight to a University degree, and which doesn't seem to have the same culture of demanding a BA degree for every Tom, Dick and Harry of a job. I'd imagine it would be a slow process of change however.

thelad95 · 27-08-2014 05:41PM

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

I'm not sure. Ask Albert Einstein....

Permabear · 27-08-2014 06:08PM

This post has been deleted.

gugleguy · 27-08-2014 06:55PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

a fool and their money are soon parted. applicable to Irish people especially.

Tarzana · 27-08-2014 07:01PM

Holsten wrote: »

Please expand on this painter making more than twice the average wage.

A tradesman with an excellent reputation can do very well indeed.

Into The Blue · 27-08-2014 07:30PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Mostly agree, with the exception of the above.
I received excellent advice at a young age. Never spend your own money on anything over 1000.
Finance everything and invest your own cash.

chicorytip · 27-08-2014 07:45PM

Why is a third level education regarded
purely as an aid to securing well paid employment and not as it ought to be -
a means of broadening the mind and expanding horizons ?
Why is "success" in life so often measured in terms of accumulated wealth ?

ToddyDoody · 27-08-2014 08:52PM

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

Yes... same case if you are academic. Its called being realistic. Its a mid life transition you may be going through or getting a temporary glimpse of.

smash · 27-08-2014 09:23PM

Grayson wrote: »

Prove me wrong. Seriously, go and get a load of jobs from accenture, google, facebook etc that pay over 40k and don't require a degree.

Well it didn't take long to find this: http://careers.accenture.com/ie-en/find-your-fit/experienced/Pages/index.aspx

I already mentioned that google don't hire without degrees. But apart from Facebook and google, there's a lot of companies that will hire based on experience over education!

conorh91 · 27-08-2014 09:28PM

smash wrote: »

ut apart from Facebook and google, there's a lot of companies that will hire based on experience over education!

I wish people didn't say this kind of thing, because you're giving false impressions to people who are thinking about college, or about to drop out.

Whenever I meet people about to drop out of college, I never know whether to sympathize with them or slap them around the head. I'm not a violent person, I just think a degree is so important for career progression, that you really should be able to put your Great Big Plans on hold for a year or two.

19 and 20-year olds can be really idealistic, and when they read this kind of thing, it can give them false hopes of a life without college degrees.

Those hopes are not reflected in any statistics, or in most people's life experiences. Young people (under 35) without college degrees, who earn high wages for their age cohort, are overwhelmingly rare.

DazMarz · 27-08-2014 10:00PM

gugleguy wrote: »

a fool and their money are soon parted. applicable to Irish people especially.

"A fool and their money are soon elected" is equally applicable to Ireland. :P

Shakespeare's Sister · 27-08-2014 10:13PM

I'm academic and I'm f**ked.

No seriously, I have a degree and postgrad but I'll never be a successful careerwoman - "successful" as in senior and making plenty of money. Don't have the drive or the ability to deal with the pressure, or the skills.
Academia (and this is a broad term - there are lots of types of degrees/diplomas) won't necessarily instill the above in you.
At the same time though, in a lot of places (but not all) you are at a disadvantage if you don't have a post-second level qualification. The aim of education isn't just to get you a job, but a lot of employers will still look for it.
The ideal would be to have both this and the attributes I listed above.

27-08-2014 10:22PM

In my department at work there are people in good, stable jobs on a lot of money. I'd say about half of these people never went to college. Most of them were hired when they were young and they worked their way up. And many were simply hired because of their personality, whether the company like them or not.

Some Kind of Wizard · 27-08-2014 10:39PM

The way to make money is to find something you're good at, and excel at it. Art, Music, Football, Academia, Finance, Teaching.....So, no. You don't need to be academic. Although it no doubt helps.

If you're not academic, are you f***ed?

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