If you're not academic, are you f***ed?

whirlpool

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

daveohdave

whirlpool wrote: »

Thoughts?

Mini cheddars are nice. Also Yawn.

WilyCoyote

Academia is one way of spending your life. But unless you are otherwise well rounded, you'll finish up alone after your wife runs off with the local gravedigger ........ unless she is brought up, and agreed with being, a good girl.

The Purveyor of Truth

Depends.

Timmyctc

Not at all. As a matter of fact. Back up where I'm from in Donegal its very much the opposite. The richer are generally those who started out on the site at a young age and simply had a good work ethic. Even now they're all loaded. The richest man in my hometown is by no means an intelligent man. Shrewd man he is but he made his money with some great business investments. No academia required.

Lyaiera

I hope not.

MultiUmm

I don't think so. Academia is not suited to everyone and not everyone needs to do a degree to have a good standard of living. Hell talk to a lot of graduates and they'll tell you how much they struggle to find employment with a degree and various post grads.

I do think there's an expectation on school leavers to go to 3rd level and do a degree these days. I think there should be more options and pathways open to people after they do their leaving, I know there's plc courses and all that but they're often just a stepping stone for getting into a level 8 degree in a university or IT.

Some people are practical and excel at 'doing', our education system at present is very much so geared towards those who are academically minded and it is a bit unfair.

Back to the original point though, I definitely wouldn't say you're screwed if you're not academic. I know a guy I went to school with went straight into work (he's doing something in construction) and while I'm in college and loving it he is by far earning a lot more money than I am and is much less broke in general.

The Purveyor of Truth

Yes and conversely, if you are academic, you're not fcuked.

Poor rich virgins.

Dont be at yourself

Nope. I have a degree (just about), but wouldn't say I'm academic. To be honest, you don't need to be academic these days to get a degree (if you choose the right one), and once you have that under your belt, you can rely on what skills you do have to forge a career.

I've got a pretty decent professional job, loosely in the field of my degree, but I've progressed not because of what I learnt in school or university, but because of whatever natural aptitude I do happen happen to have.

Having worked abroad and within international companies, one thing I can say about Irish people is that we have generally have really strong inter-personal and communication skills, and they can really help you progress in whatever job you end up in.

Lapin

The world will always need ditch diggers.

WilyCoyote

Lapin wrote: »

The world will always need ditch diggers.

And people to work out the cubic feet of worked earth

xLisaBx

You're forgetting the big difference that exists between intelligence and education.
Some of the smartest and most successful people in the world left school at 12 or 13 years old.
Some masters graduates are unemployed living off benefits.

WILL NEVER LOG OFF

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

Most people live out their days simply existing, cheque to cheque, rich or poor, academic or not.

I think a very small number of people feel liberated. Almost everyone makes a misery of life, regardless of circumstances.

cue "i'm happy" responses.

Denial is the strongest lock on the cage of human squalor.

lol.

endacl

If you're not not f**ked, then you're f**ked. It's got nothing to do with academics. Not. Not not.

Pawn

Degree doesn't give you wealth, a good job or respect. These things you get when you're smart, hard-working and willing to progress. I don't have a degree and screw it, I couldn't be happier.

Celly Smunt

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

kneemos

If you look around your area you'll find that probably none if the business owners have a great education.

kingtiger

Shamelessly ripped from wiki

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_dropout_billionaires


The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is approximately triple that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if one removes Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $66.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. According to a recent report from Cambridge-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college

Its acutely more subtle than that, I do think some sort of qualification is important whether its a trade or something else.

The important point is attitude to your work and stickability at what you are doing.

Two people could become plumbers qualified at the same time and 10 years later one owns a construction company and is doing very well.. and the other is scrambling around for work and is just getting by, thats what its really about and is not really to do with what qualification's you have.

anncoates

whirlpool wrote: »

Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage??

Of course not.

You can opt to get paid by direct debit.

Timmyctc wrote: »

Not at all. As a matter of fact. Back up where I'm from in Donegal its very much the opposite. The richer are generally those who started out on the site at a young age and simply had a good work ethic. Even now they're all loaded. The richest man in my hometown is by no means an intelligent man. Shrewd man he is but he made his money with some great business investments. No academia required.

Unfortunately the peace process has limited tertiary business opportunities in the republican movement.

IrishSkyBoxer

nicolas tesla didn't have any degree.

intelligence is more than some piece of paper

Sugar Free

kingtiger wrote: »

Shamelessly ripped from wiki

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_dropout_billionaires


The average net worth of billionaires who dropped out of college, $9.4 billion, is approximately triple that of billionaires with Ph.D.s, $3.2 billion. Even if one removes Bill Gates, who left Harvard University and is now worth $66.0 billion, college dropouts are worth $5.3 billion on average, compared to those who finished only bachelor's degrees, who are worth $2.9 billion. According to a recent report from Cambridge-based Forrester Research, 20% of America's millionaires never attended college

A bit of a biased example though. Comparing two sets of incredibly successful people (bilionaires with degrees or higher versus billionaires that dropped out) doesn't make a lot of sense as they're at the extreme end of things.

I doubt figures exist but I would be far more interested in seeing the average net worth of all graduates versus drop-outs.

OP I don't think a lack of academic qualifications means someone is screwed. I do think however that for most people, having a university education will give them more opportunities than those that don't over the course of a 40+ year career.

Santa Cruz

Timmyctc wrote: »

Not at all. As a matter of fact. Back up where I'm from in Donegal its very much the opposite. The richer are generally those who started out on the site at a young age and simply had a good work ethic. Even now they're all loaded. The richest man in my hometown is by no means an intelligent man. Shrewd man he is but he made his money with some great business investments. No academia required.

"The richest man in my hometown is by no means an intelligent man"
Balderdash. There is a big difference between intelligence and education.
You won't become rich with education alone.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

whirlpool wrote: »

If you're not academic, and therefore feel unable to partake in or to complete or do well in a degree or a masters (and so on), are you essentially screwed? Are you destined to live out your days simply existing, cheque to cheque, on an average wage?

Thoughts?

Ask Alan Sugar.

I shouldn't think so... or would hope not anyway
plenty of trades etc

Ush1

Most of the boom money people were linked to the construction industry and often wouldn't have had college degrees. Made a hell of a lot more money(or seemed to) than their counterparts who stayed in education.

Probably all gonna start happening again now.

Santa Cruz

An educated man visited a small village. He saw what he thought was the village idiot siting beside an open manhole with a fishing rod and the line down the manhole. He asked him "What are you fishing for" The other man said "Aaaar I be fishing for ten pound notes" The educated man took sympathy on him and gave him a tenner. Then he asked "Ten pound notes hmm How many have you caught today?" The simpleton said " Aaar you be the sixth"

RoboRat

I have a friend who is a painter who is pulling in over €1500 a week
I have another friend who is a taxi driver who is pulling in over €1000 a week.
I have a masters and I am nowhere near that.

So no, you are not screwed. You just need to be excellent at what you do and think outside the box.

wendell borton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyWDhB_QeI

osarusan

There are some jobs where a lack of an academic qualification will be a hindrance.

There are many where the lack of one won't be a problem. Some of these jobs can still pay very well, and some of the jobs requiring academic qualifications don't pay well at all.

I can't imagine academic qualifications being a bad thing though.

fatknacker

I used to live by the idea that I could get by on my smarts and wit alone. Then I went back to get a degree in my late 20's.

smash

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

Spurred on by American corporations like Google who don't hire people without degrees, unless it's a very low skilled job. They disregard experience in favor of a bit of paper from a college.

Grayson

fatknacker wrote: »

I used to live by the idea that I could get by on my smarts and wit alone. Then I went back to get a degree in my late 20's.

It depends on what area you want to work in. Good luck finding work as a doctor without a medical degree.

Computers are similar. The same for most desk jobs. They are skill specific and need training.
There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

having said that, it's not hard to get a degree. You can do a degree in just about anything. I did maths and found it was a lot of work but doable. The thing is I enjoyed maths. I would have failed any exam in english literature. Likewise if people do a mix of subjects they like, they will get a degree.
This goes for vocational training too. Do something you can do and you'll do well.

As for business men that are successful. well, one fifth of all new business fold within a year. It's something like 50% fold within 5 years. The main reasons were a lack of planning. Stuff happened and the company wasn't adequately prepared. The businesses that survive are lucky or had prepared. If they'd prepared it was either because the owner was canny enough to notice or because of education.

Education isn't everything, but it can be invaluabe in whatever field you decide to enter.

smash

Grayson wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

Well done on providing the most untrue post I've read this year. What a load of utter shíte.

kneemos

smash wrote: »

Well done on providing the most untrue post I've read this year. What a load of utter shíte.

Loads of people come up from the shop floor I would have thought as well.

smash

kneemos wrote: »

Loads of people come up from the shop floor I would have thought as well.

Exactly. In my first post I mentioned that a lot of American companies like Google wont hire without a degree, but there's a lot of other companies who will. I know people with nothing after their leaving cert who now have very well respected positions.

moycullen14

The most important attributes for success in any area are the a) ability and drive to get things done b) the ability to get other people to do things for you and c) the ability to get your own way.

Education and qualifications won't determine success but they will determine what you are successful at.

All things being equal, the more qualification you have, the better you will do. All things are never equal, however.

Holsten

RoboRat wrote: »

I have a friend who is a painter who is pulling in over €1500 a week
I have another friend who is a taxi driver who is pulling in over €1000 a week.
I have a masters and I am nowhere near that.

So no, you are not screwed. You just need to be excellent at what you do and think outside the box.

Please expand on this painter making more than twice the average wage.

fryup

get an apprenticeship,

Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Fitter, Carpenter, Welder etc etc

fryup

fryup wrote: »

get an apprenticeship,

Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Fitter, Carpenter, Welder etc etc

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

topper75

Lapin wrote: »

The world will always need ditch diggers.

Who has the heart to tell Lapin about the JCB?

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Ireland is a cest pit of educated idiots.

Cest la vie.

My memories of the college thing (I went and did it) are not good. The lecturers live in ivory towers and bleat on about meaningless abstractions. They insist that everything you write be referenced to something someone else already wrote, and this reference must go in a list at the end according to a certain pointless format. To hell with academia and academics. They have little or nothing to do with wealth creation capabilities or helping you to help your fellow man/women. Nothing I do in work on a day-to-day basis relates to my time in college. Employers ought to wake up to this.

fryup

mariaalice wrote: »

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

well at least neither are on the dole,

which at the end of the day is the main thing

I Heart Internet

I'd say far from it OP!

A decent vocational training, a good trade or just a good attitude might be of more value than a. n. other random degree.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Where do you think current economic theory originated from? A lot of the medicines you take? Computer systems to make your life easier? The GP you went to for your cold? A lot of these things and more are born in academic/university environments. I think that the need to have a degree to get a look in at some companies is ridiculous, but it is equally ridiculous to say that colleges/universites have nothing to do with wealth creation or helping humanity.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

well at least neither are on the dole,

which at the end of the day is the main thing

But the thread is about do you need an Education to have a chance of being well off, my point is you don't always, however you do need something else and thats the ability to plan for the future, to be disciplined, to be driven and to know what you want.

topper75

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Where do you think current economic theory originated from? A lot of the medicines you take? Computer systems to make your life easier? The GP you went to for your cold? A lot of these things and more are born in academic/university environments. I think that the need to have a degree to get a look in at some companies is ridiculous, but it is equally ridiculous to say that colleges/universites have nothing to do with wealth creation or helping humanity.

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

Hotfail.com

xLisaBx wrote: »

You're forgetting the big difference that exists between intelligence and education.
Some of the smartest and most successful people in the world left school at 12 or 13 years old.
Some masters graduates are unemployed living off benefits.

Who?

Bill Gates got himself into Harvard but dropped out to pursue his business interests, likewise with Mark Zuckerberg, and Gabe Newell left Harvard to work for Microsoft as a one of their most important producers. Steve Jobs is documented to have had the academic ability of a 16 year old when he was 9. In any case, all of these "college dropout billionaires" seem to have had a great entrepreneurial flair and had been extremely academically gifted before they left school, which doesn't really say anything to prove that the OP's worrying about nothing. Those people are anomalies, nothing more.

Anyhow, it's fairly pointless bandying about the names (I know you didn't, but the people I mentioned above are what people always think of when they hear about "college dropout billionaires", or similar terms) of a few of the most successful people in the world who just happened not to complete college when comparing it to your average Joe who only wants to live comfortably, it's like saying you'll be living on the dole if you don't get a degree because there are so many people in that situation at the moment.

In general I imagine you'd be better off entering the workforce whilst in possession of some sort of qualification, but to say it's the be-all and end-all is nonsense in my opinion, as long as you've the right drive and attitude then you've every chance of being successful.. I know a few people who aren't academic who have decent jobs in places like EMC, although I'm fairly sure nepotism was a factor in some cases...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

topper75 wrote: »

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

I don't even know where to start with that so I'll assume you're trolling or else have a serious chip on your shoulder.

miss no stars

MultiUmm wrote: »

Some people are practical and excel at 'doing', our education system at present is very much so geared towards those who are academically minded and it is a bit unfair.

Eh yeah, that's the point, to provide an academic education. Parents are kinda supposed to look after the rest. What do you see the point of school as being, if not to provide tuition in academic subjects? Everyone needs a grounding in reading, writing, maths, science, geography, history and business to be able to go about their life as an adult in an informed manner. Try taking out a loan if you don't understand interest rates. Try working out which offer is better value in the supermarket if you aren't at least comfortable with arithmetic. Try getting a non-manual job with a CV littered with spelling and grammar mistakes. School gives people the academic skills needed to function as a somewhat alert person. People used to leave school after primary when their education was deemed good enough to go farming or labouring, some left after the inter-cert because they were deemed to know enough to function as an adult. Dumbing down of courses means you fairly much only reach that standard at leaving cert now. If people want to go on, or feel pressure to go on to third level, that's their choice. But schools are doing their job. After that it's up to the individual to make appropriate choices for themselves.

Grayson wrote: »

There's no way you'd get a job for any large company at any position higher than call centre without a degree. And progressing within the company would be hard as most promotions would specify that the applicant needs a degree.

That is both true and untrue. My brother has a good job in a big company (not even remotely call-centre, a professional level job) based on the experience he racked up elsewhere. However... in order to progress beyond 1 steps up from where he is he needs a degree. So the company are facilitating that and he's going to do one by night.

osarusan

topper75 wrote: »

My memories of the college thing (I went and did it) are not good. The lecturers live in ivory towers and bleat on about meaningless abstractions. They insist that everything you write be referenced to something someone else already wrote, and this reference must go in a list at the end according to a certain pointless format. To hell with academia and academics. They have little or nothing to do with wealth creation capabilities or helping you to help your fellow man/women. Nothing I do in work on a day-to-day basis relates to my time in college. Employers ought to wake up to this.

What's true for you must be true for everybody?

topper75 wrote: »

There's a current economic theory? I thought the twats were still scratching their heads wondering what went wrong in 2008.
Medicines are not developed by colleges, rather profiit-motivated pharma companies.
Computer systems are studied in colleges, yes, not invented by them (everyone else is at it though - military/corporations/teens in bedrooms)
The seven years that a GP spent in college has little to do with them handing out an anti-biotic to some punter with a cold.

Into The Blue

mariaalice wrote: »

True but dose not explain how two people can come out of an apprentice and one ends up owning a company and making a lot of money and become well off, and the other ends up just making a living.

Self confidence and the ability to spot opportunity.