Transfer Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread - Summer 2014 - Mod note in OP

CSF · 26-08-2014 02:05PM

tupac_healy wrote: »

I used that term because its the genuine fans that will appreciate the groundwork that has been laid this summer... Yes we have issues but we've brought in very promising young talent to the club, it's a project under LVG and its because your not excited about this is the reason I chose that word.....

Now obviously you don't have to share that opinion, or even like it but that's how I feel....

Been following Utd a long long time now and these sort of players are the kind we need to push the club forward

Really don't think having one opinion as opposed to the other side of the opinion has any bearing on how genuine a fan is.

keane2097 · 26-08-2014 02:11PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The argument gets complicated if you bring players like Xavi, Busquets and defenders into it because then you are arguing how much is a great defender worth in relation to a great attacker and the answer will inevitably be less.

He's a hugely talented player that should improve their side. However I don't believe it is value for money, value for that kind of money is Ronaldo, value is Bale, value is Suarez, value is Neymar. Value isn't 59.9 million pounds for Angel Di Maria when the likes of Ozil and Sanchez have moved to England for quite a bit less.

Are you a serious person?

Andersonisgod · 26-08-2014 02:30PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Are you a serious person?

I am literally the most serious person you will ever come into contact with.

tupac_healy · 26-08-2014 02:32PM

CSF wrote: »

Really don't think having one opinion as opposed to the other side of the opinion has any bearing on how genuine a fan is.

A person's opinion of the football club they support has no bearing on how genuine a fan they are???

Really?

Anyhow getting off topic a bit, I stand by what I said, the genuine Man U fan, the ones that can see the direction we are heading will be more than happy with the summers business

LuckyLloyd · 26-08-2014 02:34PM

tupac_healy wrote: »

A person's opinion of the football club they support has no bearing on how genuine a fan they are???

Really?

Anyhow getting off topic a bit, I stand by what I said, the genuine Man U fan, the ones that can see the direction we are heading will be more than happy with the summers business

That's what he said, and he's right.

The idea that 'real' fans are obliged to see the positive side of every topic pertaining to their club is nonsense.

keane2097 · 26-08-2014 02:36PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I am literally the most serious person you will ever come into contact with.

Maybe I'm just becoming overly suspicious in my old age, but I'd be tempted to get out fry.gif again.

Aenaes · 26-08-2014 02:41PM

CSF wrote: »

This is one of the stupidest posts I've seen on this forum and shows a serious lack of understanding of how football works and why good teams are good.

A good team like Real Madrid?
They won the Champions League with a goalkeeper who didn't play in any league matches, two full-backs who are more proficient at attacking than defending, two central defenders not known for their reliability or calmness.

A midfield trio of Modric, Alonso and Di Maria with only Alonso considered a defensive midfielder. Even then he's more of a distributor than warrior which is one of the reasons why Spain play Busquets alongside him. Modric did alot of hard work in midfield last season but he's still a creative player foremost.

Which leaves their obviously impressive attacking trio but with Ronaldo instructed/choosing not to track back it seemingly leaves a very unbalanced side with caution to the wind, emphasis on attack and defence left to fend for itself.

You've stated how Manchester United can't play only one defensive midfielder, they can't play Di Maria in central midfield but Real Madrid did.

You can argue how the English and Spanish leagues are different but Real Madrid still beat Dortmund and Bayern Munich in the Champions League and neither of those have particularly weak midfields.

tupac_healy · 26-08-2014 02:45PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's what he said, and he's right.

The idea that 'real' fans are obliged to see the positive side of every topic pertaining to their club is nonsense.

If your seeing the positives only of your club without acknowledging the negatives how could one even claim to be a true fan? That's the exact opposite of what I'm taking about...

That's what I said too am by definition I'm right

CSF · 26-08-2014 02:53PM

Aenaes wrote: »

A good team like Real Madrid?
They won the Champions League with a goalkeeper who didn't play in any league matches, two full-backs who are more proficient at attacking than defending, two central defenders not known for their reliability or calmness.

A midfield trio of Modric, Alonso and Di Maria with only Alonso considered a defensive midfielder. Even then he's more of a distributor than warrior which is one of the reasons why Spain play Busquets alongside him. Modric did alot of hard work in midfield last season but he's still a creative player foremost.

Which leaves their obviously impressive attacking trio but with Ronaldo instructed/choosing not to track back it seemingly leaves a very unbalanced side with caution to the wind, emphasis on attack and defence left to fend for itself.

You've stated how Manchester United can't play only one defensive midfielder, they can't play Di Maria in central midfield but Real Madrid did.

You can argue how the English and Spanish leagues are different but Real Madrid still beat Dortmund and Bayern Munich in the Champions League and neither of those have particularly weak midfields.

Real Madrid have a ridiculously balanced squad, that's such a mad example to use. Alonso and Modric did the work in that midfield so that Di Maria didn't have to, allowing him focus on what he is good at. Coentrao and Carvajal are both strong defensively. So is Pepe even if he is an absolute nutjob. Varane is the best young centre back in the world at the moment. Bale being a former fullback is obviously about as good a wide player for workrate as you can come across.

Where is this lack of balance you can speak of? It's absolutely no surprise they won the Champions League last year, I think Guardiola is the only manager right now who mightn't swap his squad of players for the one Ancelotti has.

There is no comparison to be made between Real's ability to accommodate a luxury player and United's. Real are functional throughout the pitch. No obvious weak areas in the team.

Andersonisgod · 26-08-2014 03:01PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Maybe I'm just becoming overly suspicious in my old age, but I'd be tempted to get out fry.gif again.

I don't know what that is but someone who posts gifs as responses is someone who I can't take seriously.

Turtwig · 26-08-2014 03:01PM

Madrid have at least 2 top quality defensive midfielders. Man Utd, have none. Balance to team is incredibly important.

Aenaes · 26-08-2014 03:06PM

CSF wrote: »

Real Madrid have a ridiculously balanced squad, that's such a mad example to use. Alonso and Modric did the work in that midfield so that Di Maria didn't have to, allowing him focus on what he is good at. Coentrao and Carvajal are both strong defensively. So is Pepe even if he is an absolute nutjob. Varane is the best young centre back in the world at the moment. Bale being a former fullback is obviously about as good a wide player for workrate as you can come across.

Where is this lack of balance you can speak of? It's absolutely no surprise they won the Champions League last year, I think Guardiola is the only manager right now who mightn't swap his squad of players for the one Ancelotti has.

There is no comparison to be made between Real's ability to accommodate a luxury player and United's. Real are functional throughout the pitch. No obvious weak areas in the team.

I'm talking about teams not squads.

You reference Varane even though Ramos/Pepe is the preferred partnership.

You compliment Bale on his workrate which I agree with but make no mention of the lack of Ronaldo's on the other side of the pitch.

So if Real Madrid play two midfielders alongside Di Maria it's perfect but if Manchester United do it, it simply won't work?

CSF · 26-08-2014 03:15PM

Aenaes wrote: »

I'm talking about teams not squads.

You reference Varane even though Ramos/Pepe is the preferred partnership.

You compliment Bale on his workrate which I agree with but make no mention of the lack of Ronaldo's on the other side of the pitch.

So if Real Madrid play two midfielders alongside Di Maria it's perfect but if Manchester United do it, it simply won't work?

This isn't a good post, teams are made from squads. You play alot of games in a season and different games need different players. Varane and Coentrao play a crucial role even if they aren't in what you would pick in your first 11 on paper.

I didn't mention Ronaldo on the other side because he isn't a defensive player at all. That's how balance works. You have enough players to frustrate the other team when they have the ball and win the ball, and that allows your flair players to do things that change the game when you have the ball. Ronaldo's role with the ball is just as important as the other players role without it. That's balance.

And yes, If Real play 2 midfielders beside Di Maria it works because of who those midfielders are. It's not the how many, it's the who. If United went out and signed Vidal and Strootman tomorrow, they could have an excellent midfield, allowing Di Maria to be the player he is. Herrera and Carrick on the other hand won't perform the same role that Modric and Alonso do (and are nowhere near as effective at any role) which allows a player like Di Maria to perform his functionally.

Smithwicks Man · 26-08-2014 03:23PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The argument gets complicated if you bring players like Xavi, Busquets and defenders into it because then you are arguing how much is a great defender worth in relation to a great attacker and the answer will inevitably be less.

He's a hugely talented player that should improve their side. However I don't believe it is value for money, value for that kind of money is Ronaldo, value is Bale, value is Suarez, value is Neymar. Value isn't 59.9 million pounds for Angel Di Maria when the likes of Ozil and Sanchez have moved to England for quite a bit less.

I agree with you in the sense that I think United have overpaid for Di Maria, I can't agree with your definition of the word "value".

€90m+ for Gareth Bale was the opposite of value. United are overpaying for Di Maria, in my opinion, but Madrid overpaid for Bale by much more.

tupac_healy · 26-08-2014 03:33PM

Switching gears for a sec...

Benatia to Munich is a brilliant deal for them, he would conmand a start there for me, also I like Manolas that Roma have lined up to replace him, but gutted as I was looking forward to seeing Roma push Juve hard this year..... Wi be harder without Benatia

GLaDOS · 26-08-2014 03:33PM

Talking about value in this market is ridiculous tbh. Some players can be got at decent prices but the vast majority of transfers are horribly overpriced.

Godge · 26-08-2014 03:34PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

. As I said before, I'm not at all convinced he is better than Sanchez, yet according to his fee he is, and significantly so.

That is an interesting comparison

Di Maria vs. Sanchez.

Age-wise, they are similar, nine months between them.

Both are arriving in the Premier League from one of the top two Spanish teams.

What do the stats say?

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25244/History/Alexis-Snchez

61 goals and 38 assists in 137(44) appearances.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/23110/History/ngel-Di-Mara

31 goals and 62 assists in 130 (38) appearances.

So different players but total goal and assists per game very similar.

Whoscored ratings of 7.27 and 7.28, very close.

Of course, you are not buying or paying for players based on historical statistics but for what they will offer in the future.

This is one to come back to as the season pans out.

Rayne Wooney · 26-08-2014 03:35PM

In today's market Ronaldo would cost about 159 million

tupac_healy · 26-08-2014 03:35PM

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Talking about value in this market is ridiculous tbh. Some players can be got at decent prices but the vast majority of transfers are horribly overpriced.

It's ture, the likes of the Abramovic have changed the transfer market for the worse in the last 10 years, he may have been the first but others have not helped, I'd include Utd in that statement too (regardless of the wealthy owner status) we've been dragged into it as have everyone else....

Wondering though, will the bubble burst or will it indeed get worse???

Aenaes · 26-08-2014 03:35PM

CSF wrote: »

This isn't a good post, teams are made from squads. You play alot of games in a season and different games need different players. Varane and Coentrao play a crucial role even if they aren't in what you would pick in your first 11 on paper.

I didn't mention Ronaldo on the other side because he isn't a defensive player at all. That's how balance works. You have enough players to frustrate the other team when they have the ball and win the ball, and that allows your flair players to do things that change the game when you have the ball. Ronaldo's role with the ball is just as important as the other players role without it. That's balance.

And yes, If Real play 2 midfielders beside Di Maria it works because of who those midfielders are. It's not the how many, it's the who. If United went out and signed Vidal and Strootman tomorrow, they could have an excellent midfield, allowing Di Maria to be the player he is. Herrera and Carrick on the other hand won't perform the same role that Modric and Alonso do (and are nowhere near as effective at any role) which allows a player like Di Maria to perform his functionally.

You're the one who picked holes in team selection because of imbalance but now are talking about squads.

Almost every team plays at least 4 attacking players from 4-4-2 with two strikers and wingers to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

You expect Manchester United to line up with only 3 offensive players from Mata, van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria with Di Maria replacing one of the former three.
I'm not going to compare Carrick, Herrera, Modric and Alonso because you're right about their respective abilities but that's not the issue.

I'm just pointing out that playing four attacking players is viable and won't result in a major catastrophe of imbalance.

Andersonisgod · 26-08-2014 03:36PM

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I agree with you in the sense that I think United have overpaid for Di Maria, I can't agree with your definition of the word "value".

€90m+ for Gareth Bale was the opposite of value. United are overpaying for Di Maria, in my opinion, but Madrid overpaid for Bale by much more.

Personally I think most major transfer fees are overpriced but I do think there is more value in Bale at €90 million than there is at Angel Di Maria £60 million. In Bale, Madrid have a player who can take up the mantle of being the premier attraction once Ronaldo is gone, as I've said, Di Maria has yet to do that.

Again I want to emphasize that I do think Di Maria is an excellent player, a wonderful component to have of a supporting cast, a bit like Jude Law, entirely talented and useful supporting actor, can't really cut it as the main actor. Sanchez, Mata, Fabregas, all wonderfully talented supporting cast players just like Di Maria, but probably not destined to be the main man at a massive club. I'm sure Di Maria will do quite well at Man Utd, he will probably continue to rack up assists and put in good levels of performance but, for me, 60 million pound should buy you more.

CSF · 26-08-2014 03:42PM

Aenaes wrote: »

You're the one who picked holes in team selection because of imbalance but now are talking about squads.

Almost every team plays at least 4 attacking players from 4-4-2 with two strikers and wingers to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

You expect Manchester United to line up with only 3 offensive players from Mata, van Persie, Rooney and Di Maria with Di Maria replacing one of the former three.
I'm not going to compare Carrick, Herrera, Modric and Alonso because you're right about their respective abilities but that's not the issue.

I'm just pointing out that playing four attacking players is viable and won't result in a major catastrophe of imbalance.

I didn't say playing 4 attacking players isn't viable, so I don't know where you're getting that from, although it does appear you're backtracking from your initial point.

The issue is that 4 attacking players usually involves playing wingers which Mata can't really do, and it also usually involves the 2 other midfielders being capable of bossing the game as a midfield 2, which Carrick and Herrera definitely couldn't do as a pairing, nor could Herrera and an insert DM here.

Aenaes · 26-08-2014 03:43PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

In Bale, Madrid have a player who can take up the mantle of being the premier attraction once Ronaldo is gone, as I've said, Di Maria has yet to do that.

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

CSF · 26-08-2014 03:44PM

Aenaes wrote: »

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

There's a fairly large gap in quality between the 2 to be fair

Aenaes · 26-08-2014 03:47PM

tupac_healy wrote: »

Switching gears for a sec...

Benatia to Munich is a brilliant deal for them, he would conmand a start there for me, also I like Manolas that Roma have lined up to replace him, but gutted as I was looking forward to seeing Roma push Juve hard this year..... Wi be harder without Benatia

Can I ask where you're learning about Benatia to Bayern Munich?
All I'm seeing is Roma cancelled a meeting with Bayern (from the Daily Star but at least it's a report) and just Hitzfeld saying Bayern should sign him.

tupac_healy · 26-08-2014 03:51PM

Aenaes wrote: »

Can I ask where you're learning about Benatia to Bayern Munich?
All I'm seeing is Roma cancelled a meeting with Bayern (from the Daily Star but at least it's a report) and just Hitzfeld saying Bayern should sign him.

Ah didn't hear that, I was going on the various reports of a deal being struck, presumptuous yes but that one looked done!

Personally I'd be delighted if it fell through! I'd love to see Roma as strong as possible to push Juve all the way, also not making Bayern stronger is always a good idea!

Andersonisgod · 26-08-2014 03:52PM

Aenaes wrote: »

Bale has yet to do that also!

You act so sure Bale can be the main man for a massive club and Di Maria can't.

Well a simple look at their goal records the last few years will tell you all you need to know. This is coming across as a Di Maria hate-fest, which it shouldn't be because I do think he is a very good player, but, to steal a phrase, Bale is a galactico and is absolutely capable of taking up the main man mantle at Real Madrid. Di Maria is entirely capable of providing consistently good performances and helping to supply a main man at a top club.

Rayne Wooney · 26-08-2014 03:55PM

Bale cost 20 million pounds more than Di Maria

Andersonisgod · 26-08-2014 04:04PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Bale cost 20 million pounds more than Di Maria

And Di Maria cost a couple of million pound more than Suarez....

Anyway, Rayne Wooney, you seem to be firmly on the Di Maria bandwagon so for the sake of my perspective I'd like to know, is Di Maria worth 60 million pound? Is Di Maria capable of being the main man at one of the biggest clubs in the world? If so, what's stopped him up to this point? Is Di Maria capable of scoring double figures in the league?

Rayne Wooney · 26-08-2014 04:22PM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

And Di Maria cost a couple of million pound more than Suarez....

Anyway, Rayne Wooney, you seem to be firmly on the Di Maria bandwagon so for the sake of my perspective I'd like to know, is Di Maria worth 60 million pound? Is Di Maria capable of being the main man at one of the biggest clubs in the world? If so, what's stopped him up to this point? Is Di Maria capable of scoring double figures in the league?

Suarez didn't go for less than Di Maria.

I have been on the Di Maria bandwagon for years now.

He has been one of the main men at Madrid.

Other clubs hold all the cards when negotiating with United in their current position so we will overpay, if it was my money I would be happier with 50 million but if he performs to the level he is capable of 9 million more is irrelevant in the grand scheme

Is Iniesta capable of double figure goals? Does that make him any less of a player? Is Di Maria capable of double figure assists, of course he is

Transfer Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread - Summer 2014 - Mod note in OP

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