Scrap the dole!

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 05:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A person who doesn't contribute to society shouldn't benefit from it beyond the very basic resources needed to stay alive.

Why do you designate a persons employment status as their sole way of contributing to society?

Dayum · 23-08-2014 05:15PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'd love some stats on it cause I dont reckon its that low.

So would I.

Do you believe there are a massive amount of people on the dole with masters degrees?! Their degree would, logically, mean that the skills obtained is worth more to an employer than 200 Euro a week so where is the incentive to stay unemployed?!

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:15PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There are lots of variables though

Granted but those variables Will minimise if you total it up over a year and pay averages weekly.

For example a pair of shoes should last six months so determine the cost of a cheap pair of leather shoes times that by two then divide by fifty two and add it onto the weekly allowance for shoes.

FloatingVoter · 23-08-2014 05:17PM

Dayum wrote: »

So would I.

Do you believe there are a massive amount of people on the dole with masters degrees?! Their degree would, logically, mean that the skills obtained is worth more to an employer than 200 Euro a week so where is the incentive to stay unemployed?!

Employers want experience. A vanilla degree with 3 years experience will always trump a masters. There are people on the dole with doctorates. Masters and PHDs are best earned after you do a few years out in the wild.

berrygood · 23-08-2014 05:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why should society give them anything when they don't benefit society?

Because we're not animals. Because homelessness is a big enough issue without adding to it. Because society should be advancing and I don't think that can happen when some would sooner see people hungry and cold. Perhaps career dolers (i.e. those that have never worked ever) aren't much of a benefit to society, but I'd still rather they get assistance than wind up on the streets.

Such hatred some people seem to have towards those on the dole.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:18PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why do you designate a persons employment status as their sole way of contributing to society?

I evaluate a person's skills by how much someone else is willing to pay for them.

If you can't find someone to pay you minimum wage for your talents then they can't be worth very much. Time to upskill or find a new line of work.

bud1970 · 23-08-2014 05:19PM

Being a married father of five, who had to give up work due to having a sick child, i find the OP's initial post downright offensive!!! Oh, wait a minute, i'm not some big ****ing hotshot, living in the city, working at a job that i got from who i knew not what i know, whilst driving around in my 2010 5.7 litre ****ing bentley, whilst getting it taxed on the cheap. OP, PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME ****ING SICK!!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE SOLE REASON THAT THIS POXY ****ING FESTERING HOLE OF A COUNTRY IS ****ED!!!

rant over!!!!

dark crystal · 23-08-2014 05:24PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why should society give them anything when they don't benefit society?

Your posts are full of such unfettered resentment towards your fellow human beings, I'm surprised you don't choke on your own bitterness.

Money, taxes, material sh!t - these things alone don't make a society. If the world was full of compassionless 'I'm alright Jack' me feiners like you, it would be a miserable place indeed.

Taking your ridiculous point on board, why not euthenise the disabled? Sure, what benefit are they to anyone?

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 05:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I evaluate a person's skills by how much someone else is willing to pay for them.

If you can't find someone to pay you minimum wage for your talents then they can't be worth very much. Time to upskill or find a new line of work.

Not answering my question.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:27PM

berrygood wrote: »

Because we're not animals. Because homelessness is a big enough issue without adding to it. Because society should be advancing and I don't think that can happen when some would sooner see people hungry and cold. Perhaps career dolers (i.e. those that have never worked ever) aren't much of a benefit to society, but I'd still rather they get assistance than wind up on the streets.

Society advances through production and innovation of new technologies. It's the nature of humans to constantly build and develop. This happens slower when large swathes of the population are being disincentivised from working.

The only way to turn that around is to end the entitlement culture. If a person does not contribute to society they should not benefit from it. Even Marx famous said "to each according to his contribution".

Such hatred some people seem to have towards those on the dole.

I don't hate then. I just don't give a damn and don't want to see my money being used to support them. Money that I could be saving to support myself should I lose my job.

Turtwig · 23-08-2014 05:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Granted but those variables Will minimise if you total it up over a year and pay averages weekly.

For example a pair of shoes should last six months so determine the cost of a cheap pair of leather shoes times that by two then divide by fifty two and add it onto the weekly allowance for shoes.

What about a person who's out running weekly? Shoe that last them six months would be quite miraculous. Odds are good such shoes would be doing them damage. Or are you saying there's only a certain type's of activity people should be allowed to do? Spending €20 on Alcohol is I gather unacceptable, but what about €20 on exercise related expenses?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I evaluate a person's skills by how much someone else is willing to pay for them.

If you can't find someone to pay you minimum wage for your talents then they can't be worth very much. Time to upskill or find a new line of work.

So much for the arts.

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 05:34PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't hate then.

Oh come on... you go on bitter rants agaibst them regularly.

Calina · 23-08-2014 05:34PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I evaluate a person's skills by how much someone else is willing to pay for them.

Based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to pay about 5 cent for your skills, max.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:42PM

Turtwig wrote: »

What about a person who's out running weekly? Shoe that last them six months would be quite miraculous. Odds are good such shoes would be doing them damage. Or are you saying there's only a certain type's of activity people should be allowed to do? Spending €20 on Alcohol is I gather unacceptable, but what about €20 on exercise related expenses?

What they do in their own time is their own business but the budget would only cover the bare minimum living necessities, running shoes are not a necessity. Neither is exercise related expenses in general.

Turtwig wrote: »

So much for the arts.

Nothing wrong with arts, Warren Buffet has a Bachelor of arts/science degree.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not answering my question.

Yes I did?

krudler · 23-08-2014 05:42PM

Career dolers definitely should have a cap or time limit, sorry but if you've been unemployed for years and years and havent done anything about it you've only yourself to blame. There's a world of difference between someone needing the dole after paying tax for years, its what it's for after all, and people who just mooch off the rest of us.

Wasn't it something like 40k people had never worked who were signing on at one stage? I cant remember the exact figure, that isnt a small figure.

berrygood · 23-08-2014 05:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Society advances through production and innovation of new technologies. It's the nature of humans to constantly build and develop. That can't happen when large swathes of the population are being disincentivised from working.

The only way to turn that around is to end the entitlement culture. If a person does not contribute to society they should not benefit from it. Even Marx famous said "to each according to his contribution".

I don't hate then. I just don't give a damn and don't want to see my money being used to support them. Money that I could be saving to support myself should I lose my job.

I'm sure I'll be accused of being a tree hugging hippy for the following:

Society also advances through the exercise of compassion. Your world view is just a little bit too black and white. There tends to be more at play than someone just not wanting to work. You have no idea what life was or is like for some of these people. I wouldn't be in their shoes. I wouldn't have their life. You're talking about people who are born, generation after generation, into the same badness - poverty, abuse, lack of sufficient education. You have no idea how incredibly difficult it can be to break out of that cycle. And if it's all you ever known? If that's what you see day in and day out, it can be very hard.

These people aren't living like Kings and Queens (despite what some posters seem to think). For most of them, life is a dogfight!

The system writes these people off from primary school age. How's that for incentive.

krudler · 23-08-2014 05:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nothing wrong with arts, Warren Buffet has a Bachelor of arts/science degree.

Warren Buffet the billionaire?

Red Nissan · 23-08-2014 05:46PM

better call saul wrote: »

The time has come to scrap the dole, for those on it long term anyway! No more freebies at the expense of the educated people, hard working decent people. Not the cunce who's sky sports and multi room sub is paid for by the folk who get out of bed in the morning. I'm sick busting my balls every day while these wasters longer around drinking cans of Stella at lunchtime

I see.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:49PM

berrygood wrote: »

I'm sure I'll be accused of being a tree hugging hippy for the following:

Society also advances through the exercise of compassion. Your world view is just a little bit too black and white. There tends to be more at play than someone just not wanting to work. You have no idea what life was or is like for some of these people. I wouldn't be in their shoes. I wouldn't have their life. You're talking about people who are born, generation after generation, into the same badness - poverty, abuse, lack of sufficient education. You have no idea how incredibly difficult it can be to break out of that cycle. And if it's all you ever known? If that's what you see day in and day out, it can be very hard.

These people aren't living like Kings and Queens (despite what some posters seem to think). For most of them, life is a dogfight!

The system writes these people off from primary school age. How's that for incentive.

I don't believe the education system is writing people off at primary level. We have one of the best education systems in the world.

But even if we didn't it would be irrelevant, a poster was on here earlier who said his friend started studying at the age of 32 after sitting on his backside since he left school and last year earned a CFA. A CFA! If that person can turn their life around there's no excuse for anyone else.

berrygood · 23-08-2014 05:57PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't believe the education system is writing people off at primary level. We have one of the best education systems in the world.

But even if we didn't it would be irrelevant, a poster was on here earlier who said his friend started studying at the age of 32 after sitting on his backside since he left school and last year earned a CFA. A CFA! If that person can turn their life around there's no excuse for anyone else.

I went to a school that had a lot of traveller children. They were written off. Even as a child, this was evident. We do have a good education system and there are lots of opportunities for people to further themselves (money is obviously at play here again, though). But most of these people are coming from backgrounds where the ceiling is made of stone rather than glass. It's pointed out to them from a young age that society doesn't expect anything from them so they shouldn't even bother trying.

myshirt · 23-08-2014 06:00PM

There are very few people in this country who haven't got a significant return on investment for tax paid (bitter pill to swallow in hard times, but true whether you like it or not)

But it is these people that complain - the ones only paying a couple of grand in tax, or even just a few hundred.

I remember one chap from Leitrim laying into another man (unemployed). He really gave it to him.

Little did he know, had we ringfenced Leitrim's contribution to this country to spend it on Leitrim only, Leitrim would be a million times more of a depressing destitute sh!thole than it already is.

If we ringfence the tax the OP paid, and took it out of the pot that created the economic conditions to afford him an opportunity to earn that money, excluding him instead, the net result would be he'd be f#cked, not everyone else; not everyone else who pays into the pot to run a civilised society where hopefully we can all have a fair crack of the whip; not just greedy b#stards that have no idea how an economy and society function effectively; not just greedy baxtards that beat a man when he's down to save more money to buy toy racecars and late 1980's Alf replica pogs.

Disgusting attitude.

Backstreet Moyes · 23-08-2014 06:09PM

What is the ratio of unemployment to jobs is it something like 18:1. Yet people who are working saying people don't want work don't know the reality until they are unemployed.

Sweet Rose · 23-08-2014 06:10PM

berrygood wrote: »

I went to a school that had a lot of traveller children. They were written off. Even as a child, this was evident. We do have a good education system and there are lots of opportunities for people to further themselves (money is obviously at play here again, though). But most of these people are coming from backgrounds where the ceiling is made of stone rather than glass. It's pointed out to them from a young age that society doesn't expect anything from them so they shouldn't even bother trying.

My expectations are high for every child who I teach. I think the same goes for any of my collegaues.

The same goes for parents, I expect them to be good role models and expect them to try their best for their children. This doesn't always happen.

There are so many schemes going in primary schools at the minute like Break The Cycle, allocated DEIS schools etc. These schools get a huge amount of funding and get a lot more resources and teachers than other schools.

It's great to see some pupils progressing and breaking out of the cycle through these schemes but it needs to be a team effort. Pupils and parents need to put in the effort too.

berrygood · 23-08-2014 06:15PM

Sweet Rose wrote: »

My expectations are high for every child who I teach. I think the same goes for any of my collegaues.

And I'd wager the vast majority of teachers are like that. We had some nasty pieces of work where I went though.

Even as adults, we tend to remember the bad things people have said to us more than the good. This goes doubly so for children.

AMKC · 23-08-2014 06:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Society advances through production and innovation of new technologies. It's the nature of humans to constantly build and develop. This happens slower when large swathes of the population are being disincentivised from working.

The only way to turn that around is to end the entitlement culture. If a person does not contribute to society they should not benefit from it. Even Marx famous said "to each according to his contribution".

I don't hate then. I just don't give a damn and don't want to see my money being used to support them. Money that I could be saving to support myself should I lose my job.

I am on the dole. Do I want to be on it no I don,t. I would much rather be working and earning my own money to spend how I like. There is things that I would love to have or do but I can,t because I am on the dole. Its tight enough just trying to afford the basc things on the dole. Its hard on the dole its not good for ones self esteem or confidence and the days are boring and long. Do I have sky yes payed out of money I earned when I worked. Will I have it much longer no not if prices keep going up. Do I drink no I don,t I hate the stuff and it sickens me when I see people buying it and getting pi..sed drunk on it. I also hate seing people on the dole wasting money on fags or anyone for that matter. I can,t stand the filthy things. Such a waste of good money. IiF PEOPLE WASTE MONEY JUST TO GET DRUNK THEN THEY SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Do I lie in bed till two in the day no I don,t its not good for you. I try and get 8hours sleep a night but no more. Do I think the dole should be cut no I don,t but there could be incentives to help get people on the dole back to work. I agree the dole should just be untill you can get back to work and just enough to survive on not to be wasted on fags or drink but there need to be jobs first for people to get work.Also people on the dole do contribute to the economy and just stopping it would make the homelessness crisis that the country already has even worse.

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 06:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes I did?

That was rambling that had nothing to do with the question I asked btw

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 23-08-2014 06:42PM

It's funny how people on the dole long term seem to be better off than if they were working. I know a couple on the dole, I've known him since I was a young child and I know her since school, he's had one job for a few months since I've known him, she's had no job since leaving school. They've medical cards, they've sky, they've broadband, they're going to some part of Spain for a week next month. They get rent allowance.

His brother and his brothers girlfriend aren't much better. She gets back to education allowance, medical cards, rent allowance, she has a part time job that she earns decent commission on, he's on the dole. They've the best of everything, sky tv broadband new iPhones a nice holiday every year.

What I'd like to know is why those people are getting the same amount of money as someone who's worked their whole life, paid their prsi contributions and have a genuine interest in getting another job.

Also, there's some cul camp that was running this summer. 70 euro per child but if you've a medical card, they're free. It's so stupid.

Any time I have to go to the dr, I have to ring 3/4 days in advance to get an appointment. I'm not sure how you're supposed to foresee if you're sick, but when I do eventually get an appointment, and I'm sat in the waiting room, it's always the same people, the same faces.

If I could find a doctors surgery that's taking on new patients and didn't accept people with medical cards, I'd move doctors.

Dayum · 23-08-2014 06:45PM

I know people with two and three houses rented out in England that are sitting on the dole here.

Strange world.

steddyeddy · 23-08-2014 06:46PM

Hypothesis: There are a significant percentage of people in the country that don't want work.

Refute: During the Celtic Tiger we had close to full employment.

wiseoldelf34 · 23-08-2014 06:47PM

I am working and getting the dole for years.
best of both worlds.

Scrap the dole!

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