Scrap the dole!

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 03:30PM

Calibos wrote: »

How many times does it need to be said that 'Full Employment' is attained at x percent which in Irelands case was about 200,000 people. Of that figure you can probably split it down the middle where 100,000 are simply unemployable due to physical or mental health issues or even personality issues. We all know people who through no fault of their own have physical ailments that either patently make them unemployable or make it such that their work attendance is so hit and miss due to their health issues that an employer would nearly need to hire another employee just to provide cover. We all know people with either mental health or personality issues that make them unemployable. It is only right that we as a society support these unfortunates.

The other 100,000 were the Dole lifers. The Wasters. We all know the type. The type the ire of these threads is mainly directed at but for which the other 250,000 non lifer/wasters also catch the flack. The thing is though, in the grand scheme of things 100,000 of these lifers isn't actually a lot. If these types of people made up the entire 400,000 unemployed at the height of unemployment then it would indeed have been worth the investment to put systems in place to weed out the chancers and scam artists etc. Unfortunately though it is a simple fact that for 100,000 waster/dole lifers the cost of the monitoring systems would be millions more than the money saved. Pragmatism has to win out.

Certainly we need to eradicate the welfare trap so as not to turn any of the 200,000 new unemployed into lifers and reform the welfare system, minimum wage, childcare costs etc but we do have time and don't have to make any rash decisions. 200,000 extra unemployed people raised with a culture of work don't suddenly all become dole lifers and wasters even in the space of 5 years unemployed. Its a familial generational process. We have time to fix this before you have a nightmare scenario of a new full employment figure with 400,000 lifers/wasters. The time to fix this isn't necessarily in the middle of a contracting economy but when the economy is growing strongly again and jobs are being created. You get those 200,000 'want to work but can't find work' back in work and then you sort out the welfare trap

Where are you getting 200,000 as full employment? That seems very low for a country of 5 million people.

Calibos · 23-08-2014 03:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where are you getting 200,000 as full employment? That seems very low for a country of 5 million people.

Full employment was attained during the boom with about 180-190,000 unemployed people. (I rounded to 200,000)

One economic definition would be: "State of economy in which all eligible people who want to work can find employment at prevailing wage rates. However, it does not imply 100 percent employment because allowances must be made for frictional unemployment and seasonal factors."

In fact I forgot to take account of the in-between jobbers. So one might expect that there are even less true 'Lifer's than my example. The breakdown might have been: 50,000 unemployable, 50,000 in-betweeners in any given month and 80,000 lifers.

In other words, we don't have a huge dole scrounging lifer problem, we have a job availability and welfare trap problem for the 200,000 Odd non lifer new unemployed.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 03:47PM

Calibos wrote: »

Full employment was attained during the boom with about 180-190,000 unemployed people. (I rounded to 200,000)

One economic definition would be: "State of economy in which all eligible people who want to work can find employment at prevailing wage rates. However, it does not imply 100 percent employment because allowances must be made for frictional unemployment and seasonal factors."

In fact I forgot to take account of the in-between jobbers. So one might expect that there are even less true 'Lifer's than my example. The breakdown might have been: 50,000 unemployable, 50,000 in-betweeners and 80,000 lifers.

Oh yeah I know what full unemployment is but just thought intuitively 200,000 was a very small number for a country the size of Ireland.

The question then is, how to punish the lifers while insulating those who genuinely are too sick to work?

catallus · 23-08-2014 03:49PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh yeah i know what full unemployment is but just thought 200,000 was a very small number for a country the size of Ireland.

The question then is, how to punish the lifers while insulating those who genuinely are too sick to work?

What I want to know is where the hell is all this global warming they promised us????? :mad:

Son Of A Vidic · 23-08-2014 03:51PM

better call saul wrote: »

We should petition the government prior to the budget

The only petition I'll be signing, is a petition to ban these stupid fúckwit threads being started every other week.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 03:53PM

catallus wrote: »

What I want to know is where the hell is all this global warming they promised us????? :mad:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/oceans-hid-the-heat-and-slowed-pace-of-global-warming/

I hope that sufficiently answers your question.

catallus · 23-08-2014 03:54PM

So it was a lie all along?

DLMA23 · 23-08-2014 03:58PM

Scrap the dole?

Tell that to the 50+ year old men & women who have worked hard all their lives, only to be made redundant, despite years of servitude & contribution to the tax state & are now deemed to be in employment no-man's-land because of their age

Tarzana · 23-08-2014 04:00PM

Gannicus wrote: »

I'm all for a voucher or "credit card" system that stops you from using it to buy luxuries like booze and smokes. A card that has your number and photo on it.

Ah, nice and stigmatising. Lovely.

Calibos · 23-08-2014 04:02PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh yeah I know what full unemployment is but just thought intuitively 200,000 was a very small number for a country the size of Ireland.

The question then is, how to punish the lifers while insulating those who genuinely are too sick to work?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/labor-force-total-wb-data.html

Total Population is 4.5 million but labour force is 2.2 million when you subtract the kiddies, oldies, carers and homemakers.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 04:09PM

Calibos wrote: »

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/labor-force-total-wb-data.html

Total Population is 4.5 million but labour force is 2.2 million when you subtract the kiddies, oldies, carers and homemakers.

Ah that makes more sense. I would consider homemakers to be long term unemployed.

Gannicus · 23-08-2014 04:10PM

Tarzana wrote: »

Ah, nice and stigmatising. Lovely.

Exactly that and the fact that where and what it can be spent on is controlled no luxuries like sky+ or booze or smokes.

And if you read my previous posts I have a theory that said stigmatism will socially coerce people into working for a living instead.

The same with prostitution people don't do it because its seen as limey and taboo like the dole used to be.

Now people are actively enouraging each other to sit on the welfare and not to look for work (moreso than they used to).

con___manx1 · 23-08-2014 04:11PM

better call saul wrote: »

The time has come to scrap the dole, for those on it long term anyway! No more freebies at the expense of the educated people, hard working decent people. Not the cunce who's sky sports and multi room sub is paid for by the folk who get out of bed in the morning. I'm sick busting my balls every day while these wasters longer around drinking cans of Stella at lunchtime

We should petition the government prior to the budget, then scrap usc for us decent folk

Have you ever lived abroad op? I have for a couple of years in 2 different countries and I am back here in a crap job all because a certain woman wanted to go home . the reason i left was because simply there is no work here.the only place where there is jobs in this country is dublin. A friend of mine works in a phone shop. there was a partime job going in the store recently. when the job was advertised there was over 200 applications. your talking about a minority in the above post. i no people with honours degrees with no job. i have a degree myself but am unable to get a job in that particular field.

NIMAN · 23-08-2014 04:13PM

con___manx1 wrote: »

i no people with honours degrees with no job. i have a degree myself but am unable to get a job in that particular field.

Did you buy your degree off eBay?;)

anncoates · 23-08-2014 04:17PM

Is there a cloning factory somewhere that releases fresh batches of mongo posters every couple of months to start the same threads?

DLMA23 · 23-08-2014 04:21PM

Search facility tutorial should be stickeyed (?) & viewed before newbs (like myself) can post?

melted_face · 23-08-2014 04:22PM

"scrap the dole"

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

ffs , cop on , social welfare is a fundamental part of any civilized society.

Smidge · 23-08-2014 04:24PM

anncoates wrote: »

Is there a cloning factory somewhere that releases fresh batches of mongo posters every couple of months to start the same threads?

There is.
The owners keep employing slave labour hence the repeat switch getting left on the " dunderhead" setting on each batch

berrygood · 23-08-2014 04:34PM

therealme wrote: »

I recently advertised 3 jobs. 2 are full time and 1 part time.
In a county with VERY high unemployment, guess how many cv's I received?????
TWO!
I am aware of two other businesses who were also recruiting, 1 got two applicants and the other got NONE!!! Both businesses I know are well established and all jobs are standard 9-5.
Until social welfare is cut after a certain point, this will not change.
The thousands in this country with a sense of self entitlement and who contribute nothing really disgusts me.

I have a friend in HR. The company she works in was advertising for a low level job, very basic job. They received over a hundred cvs. See how it can work both ways?

For the people who want jobs, they now have a lot more competition. Luck plays a big factor. Some people might just find themselves with a run of bad luck and no employer showing an interest. You can accept that this happens, yes?

Christ! According to some here you'll magically get a job if you REALLY want it. But you have to REALLY want it. If you just really want it, that's not good enough!

I'd rather people get government assistance than wind up homeless.

FloatingVoter · 23-08-2014 04:46PM

I think Boards needs a separate forum for Dole / Single Mum / Free Prams for Immigrants issues.
The advantages being everybody in there would agree with everybody else. Keeps the boring people in one place.
Another lasting advantage, the rest of us could avoid it. Most people only like repeating themselves after a good meal - not a diet of scraps and idiotic vomit.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 04:52PM

berrygood wrote: »

I'd rather people get government assistance than wind up homeless.

In the rare cases where unemployed people have no family they could stay with homeless shelters could be set up at a fraction of the cost of the rent allowance scheme.

berrygood · 23-08-2014 04:57PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In the rare cases where unemployed people have no family they could stay with homeless shelters could be set up at a fraction of the cost of the rent allowance scheme.

Should it have to reach that stage? Can we not give people some dignity?

Un Croissant · 23-08-2014 04:59PM

I'll live in a homeless shelter if someone will pick up my shît after me. If I'm going to be treated like an animal

I may eat some grass and puke everywhere too.

Turtwig · 23-08-2014 04:59PM

Gannicus wrote: »

The same with prostitution people don't do it because its seen as limey and taboo like the dole used to be.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

con___manx1 · 23-08-2014 05:01PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Did you buy your degree off eBay?;)

If only it was that easy ; ) it's just a piece of paper at the end of the day.

Iwasfrozen · 23-08-2014 05:03PM

berrygood wrote: »

Should it have to reach that stage? Can we not give people some dignity?

Why should society give them anything when they don't benefit society?

Turtwig · 23-08-2014 05:04PM

krudler wrote: »

There's a ton of ways to educate yourself for free online, MIT, one of the most prestigious colleges in the world publish nearly all their course material online, for free:
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

More here: https://www.coursera.org/

Want to learn a language? Here ya go:
http://www.openculture.com/freelanguagelessons

here too:https://www.duolingo.com/

Computer programming take your fancy? there ya go:
http://code.org/

Here too:http://www.codecademy.com/

Maths giving you grief?
http://www.math.com/

How about science?
https://www.khanacademy.org/

History?
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative/world-war-history

Loads here too
http://alison.com/subjects/25/Diploma-Courses

hell even FAS do online education:
http://www.professionaldevelopment.ie/free-courses

That stuff is brilliant I love it but the free ones are rarely actual qualifications worthy any salt. Who would you hire? the person the who claims they learned accounting off the internet or the person who has an actual accounting degree from a bricks and mortar institution? Even if the former is way more competent than the latter. A company, especially the big ones, doesn't have any incentive to spend extra money seeking out those without formal qualifications. Odds are among the market of candidates with degrees you'll find a few who are competent for far less risk and cost.

Stanlex · 23-08-2014 05:07PM

OP, you have started some extremely weird threads in the last couple of weeks. You seem to have a lot of time. Maybe you're the one on dole.

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 05:09PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The government should fund a study to determine how much it costs in Ireland to meet the very basic necessities of life i.e. food, water, 2nd hand clothes etc. and that should be the amount payed weekly on social welfare.

There are lots of variables though

Annasopra · 23-08-2014 05:10PM

Dayum wrote: »

I'd imagine there are very few people on the dole with Master degrees.

I'd love some stats on it cause I dont reckon its that low.

Scrap the dole!

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