Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

eeepaulo wrote: »

The use of of photos and videos has been very positive, both in Gaza and around the world, I think it was you Tuisceanch who linked to

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/sarah-irving/israeli-settlers-spread-lies-about-palestine-solidarity-campaigners-love-hitler

yesterday, that makes it extremely clear what occured.

When you look at the number of smartphones being used at these demos i imagine it will not be too long until someone comes up with an app that allows you to upload all the videos to one central place and plays them in split screen, in real time.

Yes it has being very positive. I find it a positive way to lend support to the courage of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank by trying to share their posts as much as I can. I find those people very inspiring and it also helps to stop the media and others dehumanising them. The poster 'Ignorant' posted a link to a video showing an 'interview' with a Palestinian who was vehemently denying Hamas and it was startling that he was so lacking in discernment and taste that he could not see how staged and insubstantial it was. I have posted videos of Israeli's who support Israel but are more articulate and sincere when discussing their point of view and so am again amazed that it is not within the wit of these people to present a better argument rather than just slurring people and evading real discussion at every turn.It's a weird and disturbing mentality in my opinion.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of how they feel Social Media has affected the perspective of the conflict?

The free availability of information makes it possible for any objective individual to listen to both sides of the debate, research the points made and decide on the issues for themselves, this in my opinion is why the zionists don't seem to want to debate just deflect from the core issue which is the illegal expansion of israel, illegal occupation of palestinian lands, the seige of gaza and the on going war against the Palestinian people.

At least now people have an alternative to the Mark Regev version of events.

RustyNut wrote: »

The free availability of information makes it possible for any objective individual to listen to both sides of the debate, research the points made and decide on the issues for themselves, this in my opinion is why the zionists don't seem to want to debate just deflect from the core issue which is the illegal expansion of israel, illegal occupation of palestinian lands, the seige of gaza and the on going war against the Palestinian people.

At least now people have an alternative to the Mark Regev version of events.

I enjoyed watching that. I used to live in Stamford Hill and had a few conversations with orthodox Jews and so I found it intriguing.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Well one reason I postulated before was that the willful hijacking of the tragedy of the Holocaust victims by the Israeli government and it's supporters to provide a moral high ground to perpetuate their barbaric policies besmirches their memories.

Also the length and duration of this particular conflict and the role of the western powers in it's creation is a cause of large scale resentment amongst it's neighbouring countries. It is widely perceived that a just resolution to this problem might create conditions for a peaceful middle east.

The role that Israel plays in protecting the oil interests of the west is of primary importance to us and also a reason for why people did not buy into the justification proffered for the invasion of Iraq.

Many of the other conflicts are recent and there is not so much understanding of their causes.

Also it is beneficial to understand the manner in which this conflict is reported,the history of the conflict,the role of US aid and it's nature and rationale for it's partnership. This allows people to gain a better understanding of other issues.

I knew I'd forgotten to get around to this post and my apologies for being so slow in doing so.

The Holocaust certainly I think explains a lot of Western wariness in being too critical of Israel, especially Germany, but I think the Holocaust only provides half of the formative myth for Israel, the other half being the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world in 1948, the descendants of whom actually make up the majority of the Jewish population in Israel.

The Long-standing problem with a lot riding on it I think is fairly convincing.

The oil interests thing puzzles me though, what exactly interest does Israel serve in protecting oil concerns? I mean its not a major producer itself, it doesn't dominate any of the major routes in oil supply like say Egypt, Iran or the Gulf States. The middle eastern markets aren't exactly a major supplier for Israel's primary supporter, the United States. I mean if oil were the driving factor, you would expect the US to have a lot less interest and the EU to have far more, yet it's the opposite in reality. There's no shortage of reasons to believe the US is cynically intervening with Israel, but oil doesn't appear to be one of them.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

The oil interests thing puzzles me though, what exactly interest does Israel serve in protecting oil concerns? I mean its not a major producer itself, it doesn't dominate any of the major routes in oil supply like say Egypt, Iran or the Gulf States. The middle eastern markets aren't exactly a major supplier for Israel's primary supporter, the United States. I mean if oil were the driving factor, you would expect the US to have a lot less interest and the EU to have far more, yet it's the opposite in reality. There's no shortage of reasons to believe the US is cynically intervening with Israel, but oil doesn't appear to be one of them.

The following article is from 1977 prior to the overthrow of the Shah.

Oil Imperialism and the US-Israel Relationship

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/197703--.htm

A quote from the above article

"U.S. government support of Israel is more or less in accord with the American perception of Israel's strength. The stronger Israel becomes, the more it is able to assist the U.S. in maintaining control of the region, so the more the U.S. will support it. Though the pretense has always been that we're supporting Israel because it is in danger, the opposite would be a much more accurate statement. American support for Israel is contingent upon its strength and ability to aid in maintaining American domination of the Middle East. "

"American planners have regarded Israel as a barrier to Russian penetration, and have assumed that "the demise of Israel... likely would see increased Soviet influence ..."17 Israeli power protected the "monarchical regimes" of Jordan and Saudi Arabia from "a militarily strong Egypt" in the 1960s, thus securing American interests in the major" oil-producing regions.
The Ultimate Ally

The "realists" are wrong: America needs Israel now more than ever.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/25/the_ultimate_ally

"Israel is not, of course, situated in some geographical backwater, but at the junction of paramount American interests. Its prominence on the eastern Mediterranean littoral, at the nexus of North Africa and Southwest Asia, has enabled the United States to minimize its military deployments in the area. In the Persian Gulf, by contrast, the absence of a dependable and sturdy ally like Israel has impelled the United States to commit hundreds of thousands of troops and trillions of dollars. Secretary of State Alexander M. Haig's observation 30 years ago still resonates today: "Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security."

For national security you can reasonably suggest securing oil interests as being one.

US discusses plan to pump fuel to its regional ally and solve energy
headache at a stroke Ed Vuillamy in Washington Sunday April 20, 2003

http://1426.blogspot.ie/2012/09/kirkuk-to-haifa-pipeline-reason-for-war.html

Gutted to hear about this little boy, as a parent it is very, very hard to hear these stories without looking at your own and windering how those poor parents must feel!
The fear now is that this little boys death will result in that crazy mother****er Netanyahou going completely ape**** and killing multiple Palestinians in retribution!
Hamas gave civilian warnings two days ago for those in the area not to leave their shelters, I wonder will this tactic be deemed "suitable warning" by the Israelis? After all they deemed the five minute warning to be fair for the Palestinians!! I am wondering at what point and to what cost will that Nazi bastard decide that aggression just breeds aggression? Before anyone gets on the "but what about Hamas " argument, please just don't! We seen their "demands" at the last peace talks, they were of the most basic requirements, Israel said no so Israel, once again, is the reason another family is putting a tiny little body into the ground!

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

The Holocaust certainly I think explains a lot of Western wariness in being too critical of Israel, especially Germany, but I think the Holocaust only provides half of the formative myth for Israel, the other half being the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab world in 1948, the descendants of whom actually make up the majority of the Jewish population in Israel.

Actually that perspective was not what I was referring to. The systematic industrialized killing of the Jews and it's other victims looms large in the consciousness of anybody who contemplates the nature of human 'evil' and it's influence on the world around them. Consequently it is not unreasonable that they might be drawn to explore the plight of the Jewish people and the subsequent creation of the state of Israel. The fact that they might have grown up watching the terrible pictures of the Intifadas would only have further fueled that study. That is what I mean when I try to explain the rationale for why others might perceive that the attention that is brought to bear on Israel is a product of anti-semitism or that is out of proportion considering the atrocities elsewhere. I can't say I understand what they mean because many people have being drawn to comment on 'The Arab Spring' and the wars in Iraq and the rise of ISIS but it's difficult to know on what platform people should be driven to the streets to protest en masse. I spend a lot of time here posting links,which I read/watch and analyse beforehand and through that I educate myself a little more on the situation. I'm particularly interested in understanding the extent to which the mainstream media is failing in it's duty as a properly functioning media is essential to a healthy democracy. Of course when informing my opinion I have to be mindful of what is or is not sloppy scholarship or shoddy journalism. I'm not a professional in these fields and can't examine all relevant footnotes and access government archives. I have to extend a degree of trust to those whom I perceive as being sincere in their search for truth. But absolute truth,of course,is not really within anybody's capability of achieving and their is also the position of real politik. Are some populations entitled to promote their own interests at the expense of other populations and are they justified in suppressing their national interests so as to serve our own as a form of natural selection or greater force of arms? Given the complexity and effort required to be reasonably accurate in your opinion it is difficult to see why one would be expected to be an expert in every geo-political event that occurs. It is a familiar game that some people content themselves with rote learning of popular mantras thus mitigating the effort and time required to form something which is not totally influenced by another persons thinking and then turn around and lambast others for having the temerity to try and think for themselves and demand of them a standard which they don't even bother to emulate.Hypocritical,obnoxious and ironic in the extreme. (This is not directed at you I hope you understand)

bumper234 wrote: »

Sorry

But from someone who has fired mortars and also tank shells for a living i have to call BS on this statement.

I don't know what to make of this statement really. Some of your comments towards Makikomi regarding military matters stink of nothing but jealousy really.