Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Oh I give up. That's the best yet. Zionism has nothing to do with religion. Nah, course it don't, neither does the Vatican lol. Oh this gets better.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

that I wish Israel and Fatah would sit down and talk, that I wish Israel would make significant concessions to Fatah and I listed examples, it would also, of course, require Fatah to make concessions to Israel.

This is from the video posted yesterday, very interesting, the discussion between Finkelstein and Ben-ami, what concessions are israel offering this time?

This might not be the same link as posted yesterday but it is the same video
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_if_i

Thanks for the heads up about Hamas only using fireworks lads... I'll make sure I get mine from my local Asda before the end of October before those Hamas ****ers have bought them all so my kid won't be disappointed.

Israel are a terrorist state
Well as some say one mans terrorist etc....

eeepaulo wrote: »

This is from the video posted yesterday, very interesting, the discussion between Finkelstein and Ben-ami, what concessions are israel offering this time?

This might not be the same link as posted yesterday but it is the same video

Text

I would query how much of a concession it can be said the Palestinians were willing to offer on the issues of Jerusalem and Refugees. For one thing, any discussion of Jerusalem today must take account of the fact that East Jerusalem (not including the part within 1967 borders Israel) is half Jewish. So any proposal of returning East Jerusalem to a future Palestinian state faces the prospect of being depopulated by half - I would suggest the logical alternative is to keep the entirety of Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty as a united city, not a new Cold War Berlin.

On the issue of refugees, again it strikes me as rather unusual that we are predicating discussions of peace upon the requirement that Israel admit as citizens not just those exiled in 1948, but all their descendants as well. On a purely practical level, admitting the full 5-6 million would do no more than create a new 1990s Bosnia situation and rubbish any notion of peace. However even smaller numbers of refugees, although more practicable, begs a question - what about Jewish refugees? Those Arab state refusing to integrating Palestinian refugees in their midst are the same states that expelled about one million Jews from across the Middle East in 1948. In my view the most effective policy would be to have those states engaging in expulsions accept Palestinian refugees at a corresponding rate.

The other points of borders and settlements I wouldn't take as much issue with, quite frankly I think they treat the issue of settlements too leniently - a few along the 67 lines to tidy up the border sure, but half of all seems like an absurdly high number.

Nodin wrote: »

The right of return has been dropped, as I mentioned earlier.

Yes I think Abbas should be commended for making that move, even though it got him quite a lot of flak back home, its an embarrassment that Israel hasn't been biting his damn hand off for a treaty.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

[/INDENT]I would query how much of a concession it can be said the Palestinians were willing to offer on the issues of Jerusalem and Refugees. For one thing, any discussion of Jerusalem today must take account of the fact that East Jerusalem (not including the part within 1967 borders Israel) is half Jewish. So any proposal of returning East Jerusalem to a future Palestinian state faces the prospect of being depopulated by half - I would suggest the logical alternative is to keep the entirety of Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty as a united city, not a new Cold War Berlin.

What you are suggesting is a concession if the palestinians choose to do it. Israel withdrawing is not, that is what the palestinians are entitled to under international law. the international court of justice recognise east jerusalem as occupied palestine.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

[/INDENT]
On the issue of refugees, again it strikes me as rather unusual that we are predicating discussions of peace upon the requirement that Israel admit as citizens not just those exiled in 1948, but all their descendants as well. On a purely practical level, admitting the full 5-6 million would do no more than create a new 1990s Bosnia situation and rubbish any notion of peace. However even smaller numbers of refugees, although more practicable, begs a question - what about Jewish refugees? Those Arab state refusing to integrating Palestinian refugees in their midst are the same states that expelled about one million Jews from across the Middle East in 1948. In my view the most effective policy would be to have those states engaging in expulsions accept Palestinian refugees at a corresponding rate.

The other points of borders and settlements I wouldn't take as much issue with, quite frankly I think they treat the issue of settlements too leniently - a few along the 67 lines to tidy up the border sure, but half of all seems like an absurdly high number.

As was said above, they have given up the right, (sorry, i wasnt clear the interview was from 2006)

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Yes, and international determination of what belongs to whom is always foolproof. Hells teeth, the Munich Agreement gave Nazi Germany the Sudetenland.

Of course it isnt foolproof, but the idea that israel are making concessions by returning what was taken by force is simple nonsense.

Every argument you construct seems to involve the fact that worse things have happened therefore........

Nodin wrote: »

Why should they? They get to expand at minimal cost in Israeli lives, almost entirely sanction free. There's no downside in the current setup, and evidently the prospect of centuries of bitterness to come bothers them not a whit.

Well I'm not sure centuries of bitterness would result, I mean when you look at it, we manage to 'get over' these acts of outrage pretty quickly, look at Cyprus for example, heck most people would have a hard time mustering up a decent big of hatred for Russia despite it's recent actions. This is saying nothing about China, our primary source for so many manufactured items.

Words from the wise


‘We are reaching out to you because we want to re-examine what it means to be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine,’ says a public letter published by Israelis for a Sustainable Future. ‘We argue that these terms might be one and the same.’

http://972mag.com/israelis-in-the-u-s-urge-the-jewish-community-to-take-a-closer-look-at-gaza/95791/

We are a group of Israelis currently living in the U.S. We are reaching out to you because we oppose the actions of the Israeli government in operation ‘Protective Edge.’
This does not mean we don’t recognize the threat presented by Hamas to the Israeli people. We oppose firing of weapons into civilian population and the sacrifice of civilians by the regimes of both Hamas and the Israeli government. Calling to stop the bombing of Gaza does not mean we don’t realize the impossible conditions imposed on the residents of southern Israel. Nor does it mean we don’t demand security for them. But we also recognize that their plight is consistently ignored by the Israeli government until it becomes convenient for exploitation. We have seen three major military operations in less than six years. They repeat themselves because they don’t work. Yes, Hamas reserves are temporary depleted and the group is temporarily hindered. But this is not a moral price worth paying. Even if it were, killing thousands of civilians and displacing of hundreds of thousands doesn’t weaken Hamas in the long run. This bloodshed only feeds the one resource it can’t go without: hate. Only meaningful peace talks and an end to the ongoing occupation in the West Bank and in Gaza (a blockade is still occupation) will prevent both the next round of rockets into Israel and the next round of indiscriminate killings in Gaza.
We are reaching out to you because we want to re-examine what it means to be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. We argue that these terms might be one and the same. We believe that supporting equal rights for both peoples is the only way to build a better Israel and a better Palestine and we want the American Jewish community to stand behind that message.
The belief that being ‘pro-Israel’ means uncritically supporting the actions of the Israeli government and military does not help the Israeli people. The Israeli people do not benefit from being oppressors. Israeli society does not benefit from ruling over 4 million Palestinians. The Israeli soldier does not benefit from risking his or her life in wars that could have been avoided.
The Israeli people gain nothing from perpetuating the occupation. Israeli children learn nothing from being taught everybody wants to kill them. And the Israeli population does not grow stronger from rising aggression within it, from a loss of tolerance and from a surge of violent racism against the Palestinian citizens of Israel.
But maintaining the occupation is what this war is all about. Unfortunately, the regimes in Israel are becoming increasingly cynical, willing to sacrifice as many people as necessary to maintain their position of power and their control over the Palestinian people.
We believe this war could have been avoided. We don’t believe all Palestinians want to kill us. And we are happy to explain where we are coming from.
We believe that a biased media attempts to draw symmetry that does not exist. Just look at the numbers. Look at the pictures. Throwing blame at international criticism isn’t making Israel look any better. Taking action to stop human rights violation would. We obviously do not condone any form of anti-Semitism in this discourse, but we also feel that dismissing the entire discourse as anti-Semitism is not helpful to anyone.
Most of all, we believe that blood is blood, all equal and all worth the same. And we are well aware of what happens when the lives of one people are deemed to be worth less than those of others.
Israel needs your support to break out of the cycle of violence:
We encourage you to tell your community leaders to critically examine the Israeli government policies they rally behind. We urge you to support the moderate voices in Israel, forces that find themselves increasingly under attack by their own government and the Israeli media, and even physically assaulted by right winged vigilantes. We ask you to write to your congressional representatives to share your conviction that Israel can only be safe and prosperous if it stops the killing of civilians, ends the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and guarantees freedom and equality to all of its citizens. We invite you to start a fruitful dialogue with us.

Mudar Zahran, a Palestinian-Jordanian with political asylum in the UK on how Hamas is terrorising the Palestinian people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qpaWTu0eU

Incidentally, he agrees with my argument that Hamas is just another ISIS, an Al Qaeda, a Boko Haram...

Interesting that he says the Jordanians oppress Palestinians... though we hear no protest against Jordan.