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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    I'm out of this non-discussion. It just follows the same repetitive thread, if someone is Pro-Palestinian they can say anything they like, however, inciteful. If someone is pro-Israeli, their opinion counts for nothing. What a great way to conduct a dialogue. Absolute waste of time.

    Well I hope you at least feel better getting it all off your chest. Unfortunately your diatribe throughout the thread hasn't been very helpful in the debate.

    Of course holding views such as
    You can't support Palestine without supporting Hamas.

    and barrelling into the thread with
    Up the IDF!

    has not done you any favours. Just for future reference for when you come back as Ignorant etc zacharia or whatever you call yourself or will call yourself.

    Good luck, all the best to you and your IDF friends, or, maybe not...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    SeaBreezes wrote: »
    And again you wriggle and turn. New shift at the shills... People here are not saying they support Hamas, they are saying with the slaughter of children, targeting of power plants, water plants, food depots, UN shelters, hospitals and medical staff. With international observers not being allowed in, with 2 million people currently dying of thirst/hunger/disease and NO humanitarian aid allowed through. This stinks of genocide..

    And desperate people who are dying, and cannot GO anywhere. What choice do they have?

    And hamas as the elected governing body, IS THEIR CHOICE. If they choose a 'medival' society as your post suggests. It is their CHOICE to make.

    Israel has/should have no say in an independent states election of governing body.

    How many have died of thirst? How many have died out of hunger? Has the Israeli blockade expanded to include food and water now?

    And say what you will about Hamas, when they play host to rocket attacks on another country they piss away the moral rectitude so painstakingly accrued by a population living under the occupation of their land and people. For that matter, I'm not really buying the 'Well we had no choice but to launch unguided missiles at Israeli population centres' shtick any more than you would buy 'well we had no choice to take out 4 children on a beach as potential military targets'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    How many have died of thirst? How many have died out of hunger? Has the Israeli blockade expanded to include food and water now?

    And say what you will about Hamas, when they play host to rocket attacks on another country they piss away the moral rectitude so painstakingly accrued by a population living under the occupation of their land and people. For that matter, I'm not really buying the 'Well we had no choice but to launch unguided missiles at Israeli population centres' shtick any more than you would buy 'well we had no choice to take out 4 children on a beach as potential military targets'.

    Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

    http://www.imemc.org/article/68909?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29
    Upated: Including Three Children, Eleven Palestinians Killed In Gaza


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    There are people on both sides of the conflict and like us they do not all subscribe to the same point of view and like us would not wish to be bracketed under a particular label to dehumanise them so as to justify barbaric acts.

    For instance I have mentioned on more than one occasion the fact that many Israeli citizens and Jewish activists abroad who are growing in number deplore the acts of the israeli government. I have also drawn attention to the ordinary Palestinian folk living under extraordinary difficult conditions. For example here:

    "They will try to convince you that "Israel" is after Hamas and resistance fighters, but It's a reality that civilians including children are paying the highest price of this "Israeli" operation on Gaza. The news headlines today will be about the killing of 3 Hamas leaders in Gaza, and the hidden story is that another 8 children were killed only today by Israeli airstrikes. Noor Harazeen in Gaza"

    I have also pointed out that there are groups of youths who have organized against the society that Hamas advocates much like I,although to a lesser extent,am opposed to the society that the Irish government is creating. They are people and they deserve to live in peace and afforded the rights that we take for granted. In Israel Jewish citizens do have those rights but less so Arabs and the Palestinians in the occupied territories live under martial law.Would that be acceptable to any of us? Also the casualties of the Palestinians are well in excess of those of the israelis.And finally the argument that Israel acts in self defense or is a willing partner for peace does not stand upto scrutiny. These issues have being discussed and those who advocate for the Israeli cause have being weak in providing any substantive evidence to dispute these points. This is not our problem as if you were convinced of your case then you should be able to argue back in a more substantive way than simply accentuating the trivial and ignoring the facts. Discuss the facts and see where you go with that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

    http://www.imemc.org/article/68909?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PalestineNews+%28Palestine+News%29

    Oh good you've just provided corroborating evidence for the post I made citing Noor Harazeen the Palestinian young woman reporter I have being following. Cross linking and checking facts against others is the means by which the debate is conducted by many and it is that standard which is expected of others.Is that unfair? Why should as a human be subject to an interrogation on whether I support Hamas just for having the temerity to express solidarity with the suffering of the Palestinians?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    dav3 wrote: »
    Well I hope you at least feel better getting it all off your chest. Unfortunately your diatribe throughout the thread hasn't been very helpful in the debate.

    Of course holding views such as



    and barrelling into the thread with



    has not done you any favours. Just for future reference for when you come back as Ignorant etc zacharia or whatever you call yourself or will call yourself.

    Good luck, all the best to you and your IDF friends, or, maybe not...

    Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

    Oh and I will finish how I started...
    UP THE IDF!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

    Oh and I will finish how I started...
    UP THE IDF!

    If you ever watch the IT crowd and are familiar with the episode about the German cannibal then you will appreciate the humour of this:

    "How disappointing!"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,660 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Of course, holding pro-Israeli opinions, I would never have been welcomed here would I, no matter how moderate I kept my opinions? Why don't you retitle this thread "From The River To The Sea" because that's all you keep banging on about.

    Oh and I will finish how I started...
    UP THE IDF!

    The 5th time you said you'll finish! You will be back as you will be reading this thread and the next time the IDF blow children up, you will give us your words of wisdom


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Should the people of Ireland have been punished for the actions of the IRA? I posted a link earlier where groups (not Hamas) took responsibility for today's rocket attacks. How does Israel respond?

    How come when I change the topic like that it's called 'whataboutery' but when someone the other side of the table does it, its fine?

    I mean you can say 'why should Palestinian children pay the price?' and I can do 'why should Israeli civilians pay the price?' and were left with little more than a game of Top Trumps: Human Suffering edition. I have no intention of defending the slaughter of innocents, but I do feel obligated to call people out when they claim people are dying of starvation and thirst or that there is a systematic extermination going on; hyperbolic claims which take us further from the truth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    UP THE IDF!


    ...yes, that'll help enormously.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...yes, that'll help enormously.

    In his defence it's taken some of the flak of off me for daring to venture a contrary opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    In his defence it's taken some of the flak of off me for daring to venture a contrary opinion.

    You've been unfortunate enough to be taken as a shill, which turn up specifically for these debates. There's been a few, moreso in the earlier thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Nodin wrote: »
    You've been unfortunate enough to be taken as a shill, which turn up specifically for these debates. There's been a few, moreso in the earlier thread.

    A pity none of those intimating that I am a shill could have the decency to report me to an admin, perhaps they prefer the idea that I am some Jewish student sitting in Tel Aviv to the prospect of me being proven not to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    How come when I change the topic like that it's called 'whataboutery' but when someone the other side of the table does it, its fine?

    I mean you can say 'why should Palestinian children pay the price?' and I can do 'why should Israeli civilians pay the price?' and were left with little more than a game of Top Trumps: Human Suffering edition. I have no intention of defending the slaughter of innocents, but I do feel obligated to call people out when they claim people are dying of starvation and thirst or that there is a systematic extermination going on; hyperbolic claims which take us further from the truth.

    I''m just pointing out that the regular ZOMG HAMAS IS KILLING THE JEWISH PEOPLE bs is exactly that.

    Many have said that the Palestinian people are getting shelled because Hamas fire rockets and the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and so they are responsible for the Israeli strikes wiping out their families. Now i have just shown an article where several groups (not Hamas) have admitted firing rockets into Israel and Israel responded with air strikes on civilians. Now tell me

    1) How is that not a disproportionate response?

    2) How is that not a war crime?

    3) What chance do the innocent civilians of Palestine (MANY of whom did not vote for Hamas) stand when Israel indiscriminately bombs the **** out of them after rocket attacks?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    It's nice to see ITV are supporting DEC and mentioning it at the end of program's
    Regularly

    http://www.itv.com/news/2014-08-08/disasters-emergency-committee-gaza-appeal/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A pity none of those intimating that I am a shill could have the decency to report me to an admin, perhaps they prefer the idea that I am some Jewish student sitting in Tel Aviv to the prospect of me being proven not to be.


    Shills aren't necessarily Jewish, Israeli or in Tel Aviv.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I''m just pointing out that the regular ZOMG HAMAS IS KILLING THE JEWISH PEOPLE bs is exactly that.

    Many have said that the Palestinian people are getting shelled because Hamas fire rockets and the Palestinian people voted for Hamas and so they are responsible for the Israeli strikes wiping out their families. Now i have just shown an article where several groups (not Hamas) have admitted firing rockets into Israel and Israel responded with air strikes on civilians. Now tell me

    1) How is that not a disproportionate response?

    2) How is that not a war crime?

    3) What chance do the innocent civilians of Palestine (MANY of whom did not vote for Hamas) stand when Israel indiscriminately bombs the **** out of them after rocket attacks?

    Well it appears for once I have the chance to call someone out for not reading the thread, because if you do read what I have posted I have said many of the same things you have said and agreed with the interpretations you have raised here.

    I am not in the business of excusing actions of gross violence and destruction, simply because Israel is the one responsible, as convenient as that would be as a straw-man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭NotASheeple


    Looks like someone touched a nerve...
    Ridiculous in the extreme, why should either of us read pages of racist rubbish?

    If anti-Zionism is racism then count me in please.

    But really, even the thickest of thicks would have been so enlightened by this thread at this stage. That they would now clearly understand what Zionism and its disgusting evils stand for.

    But like many Zionist zealots before you, you are desperately, desperately trying to blur the lines. But it ain't working buddy. Anyone that defends the actions of the Israeli state, hasn't a moral leg to stand on.
    What are the Hamas rockets trying to do?

    It's deplorable to fire rockets, especially if civilians are harmed. Which thankfully not many Israelis have been. But you haven't much to say about the 2100 Palestinians killed and the 9000 + wounded have ya. Like most Zionist apologists you might offer some token words, but they're always coated with a justification for the actions of Zionist murderers.

    Do you accuse Hamas of genocide as well

    No, unlike the IDF, thankfully I haven't seen any industrial scale killing of Israeli civilians by Hamas. Personally, I say the Hamas military wing would become an irrelevance once the Palestinians are giving their Homeland. But since Zionism created Hamas, they hate to lose them, I mean how else could they justify murdering Palestinians.
    What do you think the Hamas rockets are trying to do? Produce a firework display?

    Glad you can make fun of the unfolding human tragedy in Gaza. Would you like to sit back with those fellow Zionists lovers outside Gaza, sit on a hill with a beer and laugh at the murder of Palestinians in Gaza?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Nodin wrote: »
    Shills aren't necessarily Jewish, Israeli or in Tel Aviv.

    So I'm accused of being some mercenary opinion hired out by Hasbara then? Oh that's a wonderful step up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    So I'm accused of being some mercenary opinion hired out by Hasbara then? Oh that's a wonderful step up.


    I haven't accused you of anything, so I'm not sure where you got that notion from.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Claims which have been reported in the Israeli press of anti-Semitic comments by Palestine solidarity protesters in Manchester have been shown to be false by a new video that presents a more complete picture.


    http://tinyurl.com/noquosf

    In this film, the so-called protester denies having anything to do with the demonstration against Kedem, and indeed acts quite aggressively towards one of the protest organizers while being led away by police. The organizer clearly states that “this guy is not part of our demonstration.”
    The man who made the original comments is then heard to say, “I’m not part of their demonstration” and “there’s no need to be sorry [to the police], I’m not part of you. I’m part of myself. I don’t need to be part of you.”


    The attempt to slur Palestine protesters has included Manchester’s main newspaper, the Manchester Evening News, which has given unquestioning support for attempts to maintain business as usual in the city, suggesting that protesters outside Kedem should be removed.
    But independent local media have presented more diverse views. One, Manchester Matters, noted that other people involved in the Boycott Kedem demonstration insisted that: “We warned others to look out for [the passer-by] because we don’t want people to use our protests as a platform for those kind of views … Our protest is about the Israeli government, it’s not about race or religion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    Looks like someone touched a nerve...



    If anti-Zionism is racism then count me in please.

    But really, even the thickest of thicks would have been so enlightened by this thread at this stage. That they would now clearly understand what Zionism and its disgusting evils stand for.

    But like many Zionist zealots before you, you are desperately, desperately trying to blur the lines. But it ain't working buddy. Anyone that defends the actions of the Israeli state, hasn't a moral leg to stand on.



    It's deplorable to fire rockets, especially if civilians are harmed. Which thankfully not many Israelis have been. But you haven't much to say about the 2100 Palestinians killed and the 9000 + wounded have ya. Like most Zionist apologists you might offer some token words, but they're always coated with a justification for the actions of Zionist murderers.




    No, unlike the IDF, thankfully I haven't seen any industrial scale killing of Israeli civilians by Hamas. Personally, I say the Hamas military wing would become an irrelevance once the Palestinians are giving their Homeland. But since Zionism created Hamas, they hate to lose them, I mean how else could they justify murdering Palestinians.



    Glad you can make fun of the unfolding human tragedy in Gaza. Would you like to sit back with those fellow Zionists lovers outside Gaza, sit on a hill with a beer and laugh at the murder of Palestinians in Gaza?

    Sorry, but I'm not letting that go. Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israelis are Zionists, not all pro-Israelis are Zionists. I am most certainly not a Zionist. I have categorically stated, more than once, that I wish Israel and Fatah would sit down and talk, that I wish Israel would make significant concessions to Fatah and I listed examples, it would also, of course, require Fatah to make concessions to Israel.

    However, you go to great extremes to attack Zionists but make no attempt to attack extreme Islam. Sorry, but I don't see Zionists clattering planes into buildings in New York, I don't see Zionists blowing up tube trains in Madrid and London. No, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the Zionists.

    Extreme Islam hates every single one of us. It hates Ireland and what it stands for, it hates my own country, the UK, and what we stand for. And would welcome the chance to destroy us. Please note, I said EXTREME ISLAM, not Islam. Hamas forms part of extreme Islam and subsequently is part of a network which hates everything we stand for. Maybe Hamas, at present, doesn't have an anti-western agenda, but don't rule out the idea that it may do one day. Other extreme Islamic groups have widened their horizons once they got a sniff of power. And even though I deplore their goals, and have said as much by criticising Yesha, I would take my chances with a Zionist over a Muslim Extremist any day of the week. Note again, EXTREME MUSLIM, not Muslim.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,660 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    ^^^^

    Have the Israelis just bombed another group of children?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    ^^^^

    Have the Israelis just bombed another group of children?

    Are you willing to discuss a topic without resorting to taunts and insults?

    A Dub in Glasgo? Hardly a Glesga Sellik fan are you? Would explain an awful lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,660 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    taunts and insults

    Those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    Those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean :pac:

    As I said, a Dub in Glasgo? Hardly a Glesga Sellik fan are you? Would explain an awful lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,660 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Hardly a Glesga Sellik fan are you? Would explain an awful lot.

    You are right, it does explain an awful lot


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    As I said, a Dub in Glasgo? Hardly a Glesga Sellik fan are you? Would explain an awful lot.
    You are right, it does explain an awful lot


    Yes I'm afraid i suspected that too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Are you willing to discuss a topic without resorting to taunts and insults?

    A Dub in Glasgo? Hardly a Glesga Sellik fan are you? Would explain an awful lot.

    :rolleyes:

    Another fail

    For someone who was leaving the thread you're sure posting an awful lot.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 227 ✭✭Ignorant etc.


    You are right, it does explain an awful lot

    Ahahahahaha... A Sellik fan... I literally cannot take a thing you say seriously now... ahahahaha... and before you accuse me of it, no I don't take things Rangers fans say seriously and I have absolutely zero interest in Scottish football because its pap and you'd have to seriously wonder about anybody who would watch it out of choice lol, as I said, it explains a great deal.


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