Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

kryogen · 18-08-2014 01:28PM

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Pictures on Daily Mail site of Jesse Lingard leaving hospital on crutches with a heavily bandaged knee in a brace.

Speculation last night was knee ligament damage, looked like it could be a possibility when you saw the challenge alright.

Anything concrete on these Fellaini rumours? There is literally no way in hell he could be left go if there is not at least one top class midfielder coming in, we would need two signings for centre midfield again (if we dont already)

Brendan Flowers · 18-08-2014 01:29PM

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Pretty amusing how you've put a proviso in for those in bold but not for the perennial sick note that is Hargreaves.

Gary Neville as well, who not only struggled with fitness but also like Carrick now...was 33 in 2008.

redbaron_99 · 18-08-2014 01:29PM

Pro. F wrote: »

You're still missing the point. The fact that you put "when fit" after the currently injured players but ignore the fact that Neville and Hargreaves missed most of the 07/08 season through injury and the fact that you note Carrick's current age, but fail to note the fact that Neville and Scholes' were older in 2008 just shows that you are still trying to paint the picture as worse than it is.

There are flaws that need to be addressed, and the team right now, at the start of a new season under a new manager, isn't as good as it was in 2008. But you're fooling yourself into thinking that the descriptions of "long steady rot" and "debacle" are appropriate.

There has been a long steady rot of the squad.
7th place for manchester united is a debacle. And going by saturday, there's been very little improvement - if any at all.

My point is really about the overall quality of the team. Best in the PL and Europe 08. Probably 6th best in PL and not in Europe in 14.

bucketybuck · 18-08-2014 01:32PM

Pro. F wrote: »

But you're fooling yourself into thinking that the descriptions of "long steady rot" and "debacle" are appropriate.

Actually they are entirely appropriate descriptors. What was allowed to happen to that squad over the past five years was very much a long steady rot.

I wonder if Scholes would come back yet again?

Pro. F · 18-08-2014 01:34PM

People are slating Fletcher's performance the other day, and it wasn't good, but this defensive system with the five defenders sitting back and the two CMs expected to cover the width of the pitch is not going to work no matter who we bring in. The two lads were run ragged trying to cover all that ground when we didn't have the ball.

I am concerned about the slowness of adding players (especially for defensive depth). But I'm still more concerned that there are no signs that the defensive side of the 3412 is being coached effectively.

super_furry · 18-08-2014 01:34PM

With all this talk of splashing out on Rojo, is there any indication that Van Gaal just doesn't rate Shaw? He fairly hammered him when speaking out about him after he arrived and the deal for him was done long before he was a United manager.

beno619 · 18-08-2014 01:36PM

super_furry wrote: »

With all this talk of splashing out on Rojo, is there any indication that Van Gaal just doesn't rate Shaw? He fairly hammered him when speaking out about him after he arrived and the deal for him was done long before he was a United manager.

Rojo would be a CB first and cover for Shaw secondly.

ericzeking · 18-08-2014 01:37PM

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think people hugely underestimated Swansea, and we would do well not to underestimate any of our next 5 opponents. The shrould of invunerability around United has dissipated almost immediately and now sides will realise that we are as, of not more, vunerable than when Moyes was in charge. They can see we are not likely to sign players before Saturday, let along integrate them into the team.

And I have to disgaree that we need a bit of extra quality in midfield. We need two world class midfileders in addition to Herrera. Also, we do not need cover at the back, we need first teamers that are better, at a minimum, than our current players. Someone that is 26-27, on top of his game and experienced who can compliment the likes of Jones, Evans and Smalling.

I agree with the time to instill LVG's mentality. That will come in time, as will the above players. It's just that it will take time.

If you are going to buy 2 world class centre mids to play with Herrera then where does Mata/Kagawa fit in, or will Januzaj get a shot at no10/Attacking midfield? Are you discarding Carrick and Fellaini altogether? I won't go there with TC23.... we don't have that many games this season, in medium term, yes we will need 2 top midfielders but just now I don't think so.

As for the defence, I think they all played well on Saturday (not counting Young as a defender-though he did ok as a wing back). I think Smalling and Jones really stepped up and looked like they were taking responsibility, it's unfortunate they were left so exposed by those in front so I think it's time to stick with 2 or 3 of Smalling, Jones and Evans, it's their time now.

Pro. F · 18-08-2014 01:37PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Actually they are entirely appropriate descriptors. What was allowed to happen to that squad over the past five years was very much a long steady rot.

I wonder if Scholes would come back yet again?

Other than the central midfield, which was always Fergie's weakness, the rest of the squad was looked after fine.

Maximus Alexander · 18-08-2014 01:43PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

My point is really about the overall quality of the team. Best in the PL and Europe 08. Probably 6th best in PL and not in Europe in 14.

It sucks, and I hope it changes soon, but this happens all the time in football. We've been very fortunate not to have to deal with it for a couple of decades as United fans.

Sure look at last year's top 4:

Man City: Recently went 44 years without a title, dropping as low as 9th in Division 2.

Liverpool: Currently 24 years without a title, having dropped to 8th on more than one occasion.

Chelsea: Went 50 years without a title, dropping to division 2 on numerous occasions. Were 6th as recently as 2012.

Arsenal: Now 10 years without a title, albeit remarkably consistent at finishing 4th and sometimes surprising themselves by pipping 3rd.

I don't think United will ever struggle like those teams have, at least not in the foreseeable future. I hated last year, I hate even considering that this year could be anything like it. But if that was the worst of it, then we'll have done all right when all is said and done.

Will I Amnt · 18-08-2014 01:45PM

super_furry wrote: »

With all this talk of splashing out on Rojo, is there any indication that Van Gaal just doesn't rate Shaw? He fairly hammered him when speaking out about him after he arrived and the deal for him was done long before he was a United manager.

Did he hammer him though? What I took from his comments was that he wasn't up to the required fitness for this new system. He didn't say he's 2 stone overweight like some people seem to think he did.

Pro. F · 18-08-2014 01:46PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

There has been a long steady rot of the squad.
7th place for manchester united is a debacle. And going by saturday, there's been very little improvement - if any at all.

My point is really about the overall quality of the team. Best in the PL and Europe 08. Probably 6th best in PL and not in Europe in 14.

A long steady rot in a squad does not involve three league titles and two close second place finishes in five years.

7th place finish is a debacle but that was Moyes' fault and not a true reflection of the quality of the squad. This current squad is not the 6th best in the PL.

bangkok · 18-08-2014 01:49PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It sucks, and I hope it changes soon, but this happens all the time in football. We've been very fortunate not to have to deal with it for a couple of decades as United fans.

Sure look at last year's top 4:

Man City: Recently went 44 years without a title, dropping as low as 9th in Division 2.

Liverpool: Currently 24 years without a title, having dropped to 8th on more than one occasion.

Chelsea: Went 50 years without a title, dropping to division 2 on numerous occasions. Were 6th as recently as 2012.

Arsenal: Now 10 years without a title, albeit remarkably consistent at finishing 4th and sometimes surprising themselves by pipping 3rd.

I don't think United will ever struggle like those teams have, at least not in the foreseeable future. I hated last year, I hate even considering that this year could be anything like it. But if that was the worst of it, then we'll have done all right when all is said and done.

and just on that look at all the money Chelsea spent and still have only won 1 league title in the last 8 years

redbaron_99 · 18-08-2014 01:49PM

Pro. F wrote: »

A long steady rot in a squad does not involve three league titles and two close second place finishes in five years.

7th place finish is a debacle but that was Moyes' fault and not a true reflection of the quality of the squad. This current squad is not the 6th best in the PL.

The squad has been in a deep decline for years. I'm going to try to convince you of that. If you want to bury your head and blame it all on Moyes, then fine. it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

bucketybuck · 18-08-2014 01:49PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I don't think United will ever struggle like those teams have

Oh we are taking a damn good run at it though.

I really think people don't appreciate where this could all end up, I am old enough to remember Liverpool as champions and as far as I am concerned some of the similarities are startling. We are making all the right noises to spend the next five years slipping further behind as all the while people wonder where it all went wrong.

If we miss out on Europe next season then this club is in for one hell of a culture shock.

homerjay2005 · 18-08-2014 01:51PM

Pro. F wrote: »

This current squad is not the 6th best in the PL.

so what is it then? i think at the moment we are scraping for 6th with Everton and Spurs, 2 top quality signings puts us in running for 4th.

or more to the point, if they current squad is not added to for the rest of the season, where do you think we are finishing up?

we have some things in our advantage such as LVG (which will be huge in the long run i hope) but other clubs around us have improved their squads, while ours is now worse than 12 months ago overall.

Maximus Alexander · 18-08-2014 01:52PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Oh we are taking a damn good run at it though.

I really think people don't appreciate where this could all end up, I am old enough to remember Liverpool as champions and as far as I am concerned some of the similarities are startling. We are making all the right noises to spend the next five years slipping further behind as all the while people wonder where it all went wrong.

If we miss out on Europe next season then this club is on for one hell of a culture shock.

Yeah you're absolutely right and I've floated this concern before, but it is a very pessimistic view. With the amount of money wrapped up in the club, it's more likely, or at least just as likely that it will be turned around.

For what it's worth, one of the major reasons clubs end up in long term decline is because they try to spend their way out of a crisis and end up in financial difficulty. I personally find it reassuring that United don't seem to be panicking and are taking the time to (hopefully) put things right gradually.

Coat22 · 18-08-2014 01:53PM

Pro. F wrote: »

A long steady rot in a squad does not involve three league titles and two close second place finishes in five years.

7th place finish is a debacle but that was Moyes' fault and not a true reflection of the quality of the squad. This current squad is not the 6th best in the PL.

Wouldn’t be so sure about that – the 4 CL teams certainly have better squads than United and it’s a toss up then between united, spurs and Everton after that. United probably edge it to 5th but not by miles

Utopia Parkway · 18-08-2014 01:53PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It sucks, and I hope it changes soon, but this happens all the time in football. We've been very fortunate not to have to deal with it for a couple of decades as United fans.

Sure look at last year's top 4:

Man City: Recently went 44 years without a title, dropping as low as 9th in Division 2.

Liverpool: Currently 24 years without a title, having dropped to 8th on more than one occasion.

Chelsea: Went 50 years without a title, dropping to division 2 on numerous occasions. Were 6th as recently as 2012.

Arsenal: Now 10 years without a title, albeit remarkably consistent at finishing 4th and sometimes surprising themselves by pipping 3rd.

I don't think United will ever struggle like those teams have, at least not in the foreseeable future. I hated last year, I hate even considering that this year could be anything like it. But if that was the worst of it, then we'll have done all right when all is said and done.

Football is a lot different now. Those clubs at the time often didn't have the financial power to keep themselves near the top. So once they started dropping back it got harder and harder to catch up. You can add Leeds to that list as well and they are still not back in the top flight. United can always spend their way out of trouble nowadays given the obscene amount of money sloshing about football these days and United's commercial strength.

kryogen · 18-08-2014 01:55PM

Coat22 wrote: »

Wouldn’t be so sure about that – the 4 CL teams certainly have better squads than United and it’s a toss up then between united, spurs and Everton after that. United probably edge it to 5th but not by miles

Liverpool have a better squad then us now?

Its the first XI where the problems lie

bullvine · 18-08-2014 01:55PM

I do see a lot of comparisons between United and the Liverpool of the early 90s, go back and have a look at the signings they made back then, I think they spent around 30m(huge amount back then) in around 3 years and pretty much none of the players worked out for them. I hope we're not going the same way.

Mr_Red · 18-08-2014 01:55PM

United will come around

We will have 3 new signings ( 3 improvements from our current squad )

Then we will be back doing this every weekend

Maximus Alexander · 18-08-2014 01:57PM

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Football is a lot different now. Those clubs at the time often didn't have the financial power to keep themselves near the top. So once they started dropping back it got harder and harder to catch up. You can add Leeds to that list as well and they are still not back in the top flight. United can always spend their way out of trouble nowadays given the obscene amount of money sloshing about football these days and United's commercial strength.

It's poignant that you mention Leeds, because they're a prime example of why you shouldn't try to spend your way out of trouble. Measured, reasoned spending is obviously a good thing to keep on top, and something United are guilty of failing to do properly in recent years, but if they start hemorrhaging cash on new players and still fail to get into the CL, it could be the beginning of the end for the club.

The club is wealthy now, but certainly not invincible.

Your Airbag · 18-08-2014 01:57PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

here you go..this fellow could be the reason.

in fairness to Woodward, he is spending the money, he just cannot (as yet) seal any big deals or sign any of our top targets.

A gross mis representation.

He signed Mata, Herrera and Shaw. Chelsea were runored to be after Shaw and he got Mata agreed so quickly no other team had the option.

His first ssummer with Moyes he did not get Cesc or Thiago because Barca were not ready to offload Cesc and Thiago wanted Bayern.

Apparently there was a lot of headway made with Kross until LVG called it off and LVG showed no interest in Cesc this summer.

Coat22 · 18-08-2014 01:57PM

kryogen wrote: »

Liverpool have a better squad then us now?

Its the first XI where the problems lie

We may have better attacking options than them but overall I think they have a stronger pool to choose from.

But you are right - first XI is the immediate issue for us

Pro. F · 18-08-2014 01:59PM

Here's a first team, second string and the additional players. This is not the exact pecking order that I would pick, but the one that the most people would agree with.
.....

DDG
Rafael Jones Evans Shaw
Nani Hererra Carrick Januzaj
Mata
Rooney

Lindegaard
Valencia Smalling Blackett James
Young Fletcher Fellaini Zaha
Kagawa
RvP

Additional players: Welbeck, Hernandez, Cleverley, Lingard, Will Keane and others.
.....

Only City, Chelsea and Arsenal are clearly ahead of that. In terms of quality and depth, at worst we're alongside Liverpool and Spurs and far ahead of Everton.

Giggsy11 · 18-08-2014 02:00PM

Reports in Italy claim Fiorentina are preparing to receive a bid from Manchester United for Juan Cuadrado.

http://www.football-italia.net/54518/man-utd-preparing-cuadrado-bid

All these days ManUtd are preparing the bid, now Fiorentina are preparing to receive the bid. At this rate we can sign him in 3-4 years..

Mars Bar · 18-08-2014 02:02PM

The last time I went on a long haul flight, I arrived to discover we had signed two new players. Well today I do the return journey so fingers crossed!

Maximus Alexander · 18-08-2014 02:02PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

http://www.football-italia.net/54518/man-utd-preparing-cuadrado-bid

All these days ManUtd are preparing the bid, now Fiorentina are preparing to receive the bid. At this rate we can sign him in 3-4 years..

The concept of 'preparing a bid' is much derided, but now they also need to 'prepare to receive a bid'? What does that entail? Making sure there's paper and toner in the printer, or something more involved?

bucketybuck · 18-08-2014 02:02PM

Your Airbag wrote: »

A gross mis representation.

He signed Mata, Herrera and Shaw. Chelsea were runored to be after Shaw and he got Mata agreed so quickly no other team had the option.

Ha, thats a gross misrepresentation.

He got Mata so quickly because no other team wanted the option.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

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